TromboneChat

Does anyone have any experience with keeping the blue masking tape on their instrument. I’m thinking of putting it above the slide lock ring to stop it from scratching the lacquer. I’m just worried about how the tape might affect the lacquer. If anyone has any input I’m all ears

I bought a horn that someone had wrapped the neckpipe with electrical tape, not a very fund process to remove. Left nothing on the lacquer but was a pain to remove and clean off the gooey residue. A horn is meant to be played... i wouldnt stress over that

I always think that looks a bit silly.

What great teacher was it that used to take a mouthpiece and put a big ding in every student's new horn, and say "There, now it has a ding, stop worrying about it and play!"

Loganchovie wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:31 pm Does anyone have any experience with keeping the blue masking tape on their instrument. I’m thinking of putting it above the slide lock ring to stop it from scratching the lacquer. I’m just worried about how the tape might affect the lacquer. If anyone has any input I’m all ears

The slide lock ring shouldn't be able to mess up any lacquer. Do you mean the tenon nut?

The blue tape is pretty benign, but the adhesive will still harden over time. Changing it out every couple weeks might be beneficial.

Yeah, I meant the tenon nut. I realize the confusion now

The blue tape used by many manufacturers (including myself) is a non-adhesive tape, in that doesn't have any adhesive on it, like regular masking tape does. It sticks to anything "plastic" (ie lacquer) It is "very" expensive, and only available in pretty large rolls. I have never had any issues with it hardening, or becoming difficult to remove. I put it on new horns to protect the lacquer from the jingling lock nut. Some people leave it on, some don't.

Shoot me a message and I can put some in the post to you.

.

I just did what Kanstul used to do for their trombones: get a nice O-ring, put it over the lock nut on the receiver, and then use it to keep the lock nut in place. Even with the tape there it can still sometimes bang into other things.

I think they were 16 or 15mm inner diameter, probably about 2mm thickness. I got some 16mm ID 18mm OD neoprene rings and they work pretty well. They can stretch a bit over time, so I think if I had to order more, I'd go for 15mm ID.

Yeah I tried so hard to find that tape in Japan and failed. What is the brand and type, specifically?

The blue tape that Matthew referred to has no impact on the lacquer and it does not harden over time. It is a very effective protection against scratches from the tenon nut. If you don’t remove it, the tape will eventually wear and fall off on its own. I have seen the tape last for a few years on some trombones.

This thread does bring up another topic that I think is important: Why do some instrument manufacturers make horns that have moving parts that will automatically scratch the instrument? The Bach 36B, 42B and 50B are great examples. Why didn’t they solder on a small ring or knob that would only allow the nut to move about 1/8 an inch. That’s what I do when I build my instruments.

The same is true of the modular bell connecting nuts. Why did Edwards design those so that they slide back and forth and scratch most of the brace. A small knob soldered in the correct position is all it takes to prevent that nut from scratching the finish off the brace.

If you think about it, it would be like buying a new car with a chain and block of steel attached to the outside door latch. Every time you open the latch, you would automatically scratch your car door.

I guess that there must be two schools of thought about keeping an instrument looking totally pristine despite its being played regularly and those who think that an instrument that shows wear indicates that it is being used often and the signs of wear are considered to be well earned "battle scars". My old section partner, Bob Isele, when questioned whether or not he was thinking about having his Conn 88H refurbished said, "Some of us shine 'em and some of us play 'em" ! Being totally aware of his incredible trombone technique, I was humbled, to say the least.

I wouldn't care as much about the wear to the finish in that location, if it wasn't also where the instrument is held, which means that my hand ends up getting that smell of oxidized nickel on it, which I just don't like. I went with the O-rings because they seem less obtrusive, are cheap, and I loved how they keep the lock ring from really moving at all. I have them now installed on all of my trombones.I got like 50 for 5 bucks so I gave a bunch to friends too.

2bobone wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:16 pm I guess that there must be two schools of thought about keeping an instrument looking totally pristine despite its being played regularly and those who think that an instrument that shows wear indicates that it is being used often and the signs of wear are considered to be well earned "battle scars". My old section partner, Bob Isele, when questioned whether or not he was thinking about having his Conn 88H refurbished said, "Some of us shine 'em and some of us play 'em" ! Being totally aware of his incredible trombone technique, I was humbled, to say the least.

While I am aware that your comment is a bit "tongue-in-cheek," I do think that it labels players on a linear spectrum. My experience has been that the "real players" versus "pretty instrument people" can be explained in more of a venn diagram.

Sure.....we all know players that try to keep their instruments looking perfect, but they should really concentrate on becoming better musicians. We also know the great players who have instruments so disgusting that a hazardous materials crew should come to the rehearsal and take it away. But there is definitely an assortment of personality combinations.

I know of a very fine play who would religiously complete a 20-25 minute ritual after every gig. He had a relatively new Shires and he would swab every inside tube the instrument multiple times. He would also wipe down every square inch of the instrument exterior. When I asked him "why?" he replied.... "Yes, I like this new instrument now, but what if the romance goes away after one or two years? I want it to be in pristine condition, should I choose to sell it."

LOL…….thanks for sharing that Brad! My wife is that way in the kitchen and I am that way with my instruments.

At least we can laugh about our issues and try to adjust for each other. It has made me more aware of keeping the kitchen clean and she has learned to move very slowly and carefully when handling my instruments.

So what is the brand and type for that tape?

As a cheap alternative for scratch prevention I've used small sections of low tack adhesive floor protector before https://www.amazon.co.uk/Harris-3041-Ad ... B0079X2Z2M

We use it at work to protect sheet metal when it is being engraved, and even if scorched by friction with the engraving head I haven't had any problems with residue or damage from the minimal adhesive it uses and any of the lacquer or powdercoated surfaces

Blue masking tape will eat into nitrocellulose lacquer. I have that happen on lacquer finished guitars. It can leave a depression after an hour or two. Leave it overnight and the depression will go a bit deeper.

After a bit of research I disovered that 3M makes a lacquer compatible masking tape that is green colored and it can stay on lacquer for a long time.

The teacher was John Coffee. He used to put a tiny dent in a horn, or maybe just threaten to do it, to prompt the student to get over the fear of denting a new horn.

Some people say that the rubber O-rings (what type of rubber BTW?) can cause problems with the finish of the horn. I wouldn’t know, as my horns were de-lacquered, and I’ve never used them. I have seen people use the rubber O-rings on the tuning slide when the tubes don’t fit.

Kbiggs wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:05 pmSome people say that the rubber O-rings (what type of rubber BTW?) can cause problems with the finish of the horn. I wouldn’t know, as my horns were de-lacquered, and I’ve never used them. I have seen people use the rubber O-rings on the tuning slide when the tubes don’t fit.

Most current production horns use epoxy laquer, often oven baked, which is pretty much chemically inert. However lacquer touch ups can sometimes use chemically reactive lacquer.

Older instruments may have nitrocellulose type lacquers, particularly Bach, who kept using that type of laquer long after other companies stopped. This is why you can dip a Bach in hot water and the lacquer will float off. These could react to O-rings, if they are not made from the right material. I got some O-rings made from Nitrile and some others made from Silicone. I ordered 20mm OD 16mm ID 2mm Width size, but I think maybe the 19mm OD 15mm ID might have fitted just a bit tighter/ better.

My kanstul trombones came with an O-ring, and I have never removed them. There is zero damage to the lacquer from the O-rings.

Natural rubber contains sulfur as the vulcanizing agent. Synthetic rubbers don't need the sulfur. Sulfur is what reacts with the brass to create a black stain.

I think even plumbing O-rings are synthetic rubber nowadays (Buna-N) so unless you find an old O-ring you may be OK.

Note that most modern instruments do not use nitrocellulose lacquer. Conn, Yamaha, and King all use epoxy lacquer, and have done so for at least 30 years. Epoxy lacquer usually doesn't react with the adhesive of most tapes.

Since this topic keeps coming up, I'll ask another time. What is the brand and type of blue tape that is used on instruments? I think it's Japanese, and I'm tracking that is not cheap, but someone here who makes instruments must know what brand and type of tape it is. Pleeease?

Several companies make blue masking tape. One of the best is 3M.

Lately, in my guitar repair work I have been using Frog Sensitive Surface masking tape. It is very thin and has a less grippy adhesive. It seems to be compatible with nitro lacquer, so it should be fine with epoxy finishes. It is expensive but has found a place in my arsenal. I get it at the local Ace Hardware.

It's not masking tape, and there's no adhesive involved.

Harrison, you're looking for PE electrostatic film... good luck finding it in non-industrial quantities. PTFE gas tape (i.e. thicker and less fray-prone than the usual 0.08mm plumbing stuff) might also suit and would certainly be easier to find.

I’d think it’s UHMW, like a 3M 483, which is readily available at McMaster or Grainger.

bitbckt wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:25 am I’d think it’s UHMW, like a 3M 483, which is readily available at McMaster or Grainger.

Hmm, certainly looks right to me. There are a bunch on amazon, most advertised with "aggressive acrylic adhesive", which certainly fits with how well adhered that stuff is to the horn. The fun part is finding a roll that isn't 36 YARDS.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082VHZZNT/

harrisonreed wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:07 am Since this topic keeps coming up, I'll ask another time. What is the brand and type of blue tape that is used on instruments? I think it's Japanese, and I'm tracking that is not cheap, but someone here who makes instruments must know what brand and type of tape it is. Pleeease?

I think that Matthew Walker, horn builder, knows. I’d message him.

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:14 pm

harrisonreed wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:07 am Since this topic keeps coming up, I'll ask another time. What is the brand and type of blue tape that is used on instruments? I think it's Japanese, and I'm tracking that is not cheap, but someone here who makes instruments must know what brand and type of tape it is. Pleeease?

I think that Matthew Walker, horn builder, knows. I’d message him.

He already responded back in May (hornbuilder)

BGuttman wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:45 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 7:14 pm
I think that Matthew Walker, horn builder, knows. I’d message him.

He already responded back in May (hornbuilder)

I know. Yet someone keeps asking the same question so I referred him directly to Matthew.

That response was before I said anything in this thread, and I don't want to reach out to ask for tape in the mail -- that would be crazy. I thought it would be easy to just put the brand and model here, is all, and then everyone would know. But I know people are busy working. It's not a big deal.

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 5:55 am That response was before I said anything in this thread, and I don't want to reach out to ask for tape in the mail -- that would be crazy. I thought it would be easy to just put the brand and model here, is all, and then everyone would know. But I know people are busy working. It's not a big deal.

I figured he would just give you the name of the tape and a source. And my timeline must be messed up because Matthew answered this months ago and I'm showing your question dated months later. sorry.

I buy the blue tape from Allied Supply. Bought a roll when we opened the business 9 years ago. Have barely used a quarter of it. My understanding is Allied buy big rolls from their supplier in Europe, and cut it into the rolls they sell. I don't know the brand or name or product number, other than what Allied list it as. It isn't available from local hardware stores.

Thanks Matthew!

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 7:29 am Thanks Matthew!

Well there you go!

Actually. The product is Nitto Tape. But that is as much info as I have.

Yeah Nitto is from Japan. I searched high and low and could not find it there. But I think I did find the product on their site:

https://www.nitto.com/us/en/products/su ... _metal041/

This may be the same blue tape that protected some of the shiny surfaces on my Subaru Outback when new.

There are plenty of blue PE tapes in varying thicknesses. Hard part is getting it not in bulk.

Cheers,
Andy

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:25 am Sure.....we all know players that try to keep their instruments looking perfect, but they should really concentrate on becoming better musicians. We also know the great players who have instruments so disgusting that a hazardous materials crew should come to the rehearsal and take it away.

I think that's a poor generalization and juxtaposition. The implication is that those who keep their horns pristine are lesser musicians than those with ugly, unkempt horns. That's an old trope.

Yes, some new players who don't play well have beautiful new horns. And some of the worn, unlacquered instruments belong to seasoned pros who have played on them for decades. But correlation is not causation, and it's not enough to support the old trope about a funky instrument being indicative of a great player, or a shiny new one indicating a poor player.

I admit that decades ago I was the "hazardous materials" type. But I've since changed. Now I take a good bit of pride in keeping my instruments clean and pristine. And I'm a good player. That old trope is simply false.

Elow wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 1:39 pm I bought a horn that someone had wrapped the neckpipe with electrical tape, not a very fund process to remove. Left nothing on the lacquer but was a pain to remove and clean off the gooey residue.

I have a habit, still to this day, of keeping electrical tape wrapped around the neck pipe of my straight (no valves or attachments) horns. I have an acidic neck, and it wears away the lacquer and leaves my neck with a black stripe. So I wrap it. It works, and I actually like the look.

Electrical tape is supposedly mildly carcinogenic, through prolonged skin contact, FWIW. Also the black gunky adhesive is nasty, in general.

tbonesullivan wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:23 am
Older instruments may have nitrocellulose type lacquers, particularly Bach, who kept using that type of laquer long after other companies stopped. This is why you can dip a Bach in hot water and the lacquer will float off. These could react to O-rings, if they are not made from the right material. I got some O-rings made from Nitrile and some others made from Silicone. I ordered 20mm OD 16mm ID 2mm Width size, but I think maybe the 19mm OD 15mm ID might have fitted just a bit tighter/ better.

Shires still uses nitrocellulose lacquer, and a pretty thin coat of it, at that.

harrisonreed wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 5:58 pm Electrical tape is supposedly mildly carcinogenic, through prolonged skin contact, FWIW. Also the black gunky adhesive is nasty, in general.

Yes it most definitely is! I’ve used self adhesive bandage in black on an offset layer and it did/held up well with no residue left over when taken off six months later…

harrisonreed wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 5:58 pm Electrical tape is supposedly mildly carcinogenic, through prolonged skin contact, FWIW. Also the black gunky adhesive is nasty, in general.

Really? Huh. Who'da thunk? Got any non-toxic suggestions for wrapping the neck pipe?

tbdana wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:15 am

harrisonreed wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 5:58 pm Electrical tape is supposedly mildly carcinogenic, through prolonged skin contact, FWIW. Also the black gunky adhesive is nasty, in general.

Really? Huh. Who'da thunk? Got any non-toxic suggestions for wrapping the neck pipe?

Polyethylene film tape, as has been discussed in this thread.
Good luck finding it in small amounts.
[Note: It's NOT "masking tape," which is the misleading title of this thread.]

EZ-flow clear tubing is available in 3/8” id by 10’ lengths at Lowe’s for $6.88. It is easy to trim to match and slit to fit with a box knife. It comes with a Proposition 65 warning for those cravers of paranoia and FDA approval for use with potable water in 49 states. Flint, Michigan is holding out for more testing. Accessorize with a bandaid, white adhesive tape,and black rim cheaters at your favorite discount pharmacy to complete the Les Nessman look. One size fits none. Your mileage with Jennifer may vary.

Posaunus wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:52 pm

tbdana wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:15 am

Really? Huh. Who'da thunk? Got any non-toxic suggestions for wrapping the neck pipe?

Polyethylene film tape, as has been discussed in this thread.
Good luck finding it in small amounts.
[Note: It's NOT "masking tape," which is the misleading title of this thread.]

I'm not sure it would be good for that purpose, actually. Once oil gets under it it comes off. Using it against your neck would probably loosen it off in a few sessions.

People who manage to keep it on the tenon either are really careful about preventing oil from coming out of the tenon when they oil it (which then gets caught in the nut in the case and staff all over the tape), or they don't oil their valve ever.

tbdana wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:15 am Really? Huh. Who'da thunk? Got any non-toxic suggestions for wrapping the neck pipe?

People used to use telephone handset cord. I think I've heard of tennis racquet grip tape used as well.

ptfe or Polytetrafluoroethylene tape, will work, on the neck or tenon. It is used on pipe threads and comes in a 3-inch round plastic case. It gets called Teflon tape in plumbing supplies. 528’ is the length. It is stretchy enough that the loose ends can be locked with a little creativity. No adhesive tape is required. It won’t damage the finish and comes off easily for regular cleaning. It will take practice to make it look pretty. It should not look worse than electrical tape or lamp cord. It won’t last as long as either electrical tape or lamp cord. It won’t cause damage or hold dirt or moisture.

tbdana wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:15 am

harrisonreed wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 5:58 pm Electrical tape is supposedly mildly carcinogenic, through prolonged skin contact, FWIW. Also the black gunky adhesive is nasty, in general.

Really? Huh. Who'da thunk? Got any non-toxic suggestions for wrapping the neck pipe?

Plastic electrical tape is made from BPA, the same precursor chemical used for water bottles. Most of this precursor is reacted so there shouldn't be much of it left. BPA has been listed as a suspected carcinogen in California.

Trombonists have been using the tape for decades as a neckguard (including me back in High School -- 1960s). You don't see a lot of trombonists with cancer tumors on their necks so the California warning is probably of the same magnitude as the warning about saccharine, which is carcinogenic if you consume the equivalent of a few hundred cans of diet soda per day.

Now if I worked in a plant making the polymer film that is the basis for electrical tape, that would be a different story.