TromboneChat

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2023 2:51 pm**

does anyone play both valve trombone and slide? or have you switched from one to the other? (I suppose baritone and euphonium fit in this discussion as well)...

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2023 3:19 pm**

I play tenor and bass trombone, bass trumpet, euphonium, and tuba. I prefer slide trombone only because I have been at it longer. But having some facility with valves opens a wider range of instruments to play. I know of two trumpet players who took up valve trombone to be able to play trombone parts.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2023 4:25 pm**

valve or slide - your preference

I play both.
It's all about the sound.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2023 10:07 pm**

Valve trombones were the rage for nearly 100 years. Mahler was the first to have his ensembles go back to the slide trombone after many decades playing valves. Verdi was entirely valves. Wagner was also more than likely valves.

I would really love to be in a section that had a great set of valve trombones! But it's not as common even if they get a more accurate sound on some rep.
.

Posted: **Tue May 02, 2023 11:51 pm**

I'm not too keen on the valve trombone sound, though I like the feeling of playing valved instruments - ironically.

I think valve trombones have a slightly nasal and stuffed tone, which I'm just not into. I looove the open range and the precision of pitch on my slide trombone.

On horns, I think that "squeezed" sound works very well, so maybe it's only prejudice, maybe it's the size and the construction of the trombone that to my ears doesn't do well with valves.

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2023 12:14 am**

I also play trumpet, euphonium and tuba. I would never play (or even try) a valve trombone...I do not like the sound...Brookmeyer sounds fine but only when playing not too loud..

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2023 1:27 am**

I play tenor trom, bass trom & eupho. Much prefer the eupho.

Can't stand valve troms. All that I have played have been awful and others that have played on 1 in the band couldn't blend!

If you want to play trombone learn the slide!
Few, if any, decent bands would accept an alto trom on horn parts, or soprano trom on cornet parts! You would need to learn the instrument. So why is it acceptable to throw a valve player on a valve trom?

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2023 6:03 am**

I play both. I prefer slides for 2 reasons - intonation and slide effects. When I use valves, I do it for a couple of reasons - compact size and minimal motion. Flugabone is my main valve instrument.

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2023 6:00 pm**

I play slide and 4-valve trombones because I like making myself suffer.

Posted: **Wed May 03, 2023 10:10 pm**

Pezza wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 1:27 amCan't stand valve troms. All that I have played have been awful and others that have played on 1 in the band couldn't blend!

This is the key point, I think. There are very few well-designed, decent quality valve trombones on the market at all, and certainly none in wide circulation. Obviously since many of us play valved instruments, we're aware there are configurations of valves that can work very well - it's just that modern manufacturers haven't bothered to iterate and develop a good valve trombone.

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2023 12:38 am**

ATXBassBone wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 10:07 pm Valve trombones were the rage for nearly 100 years. Mahler was the first to have his ensembles go back to the slide trombone after many decades playing valves. Verdi was entirely valves. Wagner was also more than likely valves.

I would really love to be in a section that had a great set of valve trombones! But it's not as common even if they get a more accurate sound on some rep.
.

Valve trombone use in professional orchestral playing lasted for around 100 years in Italy, but elsewhere it either was much shorter or didn't catch on at all. It was rarely up to the composer whether they used valves or slides but a question of what the practice was in any particular place (so Brahms wrote for slide trombones, until he moved to Vienna where they were using valves). Vienna switched back to slides about 15 years before Mahler got the music director job there so he wasn't "the first" to move back to slides. Valves were the norm in Italy by around 1840, until well into the 20th century, so indeed most of Verdi (and all of Puccini) would have been written with valve trombones in mind, although not Rossini as is sometimes presumed. Also Dvorak and much if not all of Bruckner was probably on valves. On the other hand, for Wagner I don't see any reason to think slides weren't the norm.

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2023 1:02 am**

spencercarran wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 10:10 pm
Pezza wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 1:27 amCan't stand valve troms. All that I have played have been awful and others that have played on 1 in the band couldn't blend!
This is the key point, I think. There are very few well-designed, decent quality valve trombones on the market at all, and certainly none in wide circulation. Obviously since many of us play valved instruments, we're aware there are configurations of valves that can work very well - it's just that modern manufacturers haven't bothered to iterate and develop a good valve trombone.

I do not think that it is possible to build a good sounding valve trombone. The sound spectrum of a "trumpet one octave lower" does not work. This may be the reason that low brass is built like flugelhorns, conical... This gives a warm and full sound. When you play forte on a valve trombone or french horn you will notice a very unpleasant sound. That is the true reason horn players have the hand inside the bell. It just don´t sound good played open and mezzoforte..

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2023 4:28 am**

Trombonic wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 1:02 am
spencercarran wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 10:10 pm

This is the key point, I think. There are very few well-designed, decent quality valve trombones on the market at all, and certainly none in wide circulation. Obviously since many of us play valved instruments, we're aware there are configurations of valves that can work very well - it's just that modern manufacturers haven't bothered to iterate and develop a good valve trombone.
I do not think that it is possible to build a good sounding valve trombone. The sound spectrum of a "trumpet one octave lower" does not work. This may be the reason that low brass is built like flugelhorns, conical... This gives a warm and full sound. When you play forte on a valve trombone or french horn you will notice a very unpleasant sound. That is the true reason horn players have the hand inside the bell. It just don´t sound good played open and mezzoforte..

That doesn't really make sense. Trumpets used to be pitched an octave lower (natural trumpets are twice as long). Horns also used to be played without the hand. The hand in the bell became common because it allowed to control intonation and hand stopping lets you play notes outside of the harmonic series.

I don't see why valves would suddenly make those sound bad. A cimbasso sounds good, and it's mostly cylindrical.

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2023 5:48 am**

Trombonic wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 1:02 am
I do not think that it is possible to build a good sounding valve trombone. The sound spectrum of a "trumpet one octave lower" does not work. This may be the reason that low brass is built like flugelhorns, conical... This gives a warm and full sound. When you play forte on a valve trombone or french horn you will notice a very unpleasant sound. That is the true reason horn players have the hand inside the bell. It just don´t sound good played open and mezzoforte..

Let me disprove all of this gobbledegook right now.

They not only designed a great sounding valve trombone, but a great sounding valve trombone WITH a working hand slide.

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2023 7:10 am**

It's interesting reading all these responses and the hate towards a valve 'bone. But I have to point out that I think most of the derision towards the valve is misplaced. Not everyone is playing orchestral or symphonic music at a professional level. Context is key.

What kind of music is being played matters as to what horn is being used. Is it symphonic? Is it Big Band? Is it Ska? Quartet? Modern? Ethnic? Gospel? Pop? Original compositions? What exactly are we talking about here? Are we playing in a concert hall? High School gym? Local biker bar? One instrument doesn't fit every application, nor does one bad experience define an entire class of instrument.

I find myself playing the 4-valve almost exclusively now. The 4-valve is functionally the same as a Euphonium, and nobody here has derision or hate for a Euphonium, but somehow the 4-valve 'bone is left out of the conversation. Yes, they make 4-valves and 3-valve trombones, shocking I know. In the interest of full disclosure, the newest valve I have is 90 years old, so I can't comment on modern construction.

In all the playing I've done, not one person has ever said anything to me about "tone" or "intonation" being bad even though I admit that I'm not the best player in the area. What matters, as I said, is context. I play for charity. I play for Easter and Christmas services. I play at children's hospitals and for the disabled. I play for the elderly and sick. Because they love it. Because I love doing it. They love the valve horn because it's so unique, they love the presentation and entertainment.

I apologize if this upsets the purists and the professionals on this site. I'm just an amateur player that loves doing what I do, so take my opinions and perspectives for what they are worth.

Context matters.

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2023 9:21 am**

Trombonic wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 1:02 am
spencercarran wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 10:10 pm

This is the key point, I think. There are very few well-designed, decent quality valve trombones on the market at all, and certainly none in wide circulation. Obviously since many of us play valved instruments, we're aware there are configurations of valves that can work very well - it's just that modern manufacturers haven't bothered to iterate and develop a good valve trombone.
I do not think that it is possible to build a good sounding valve trombone. The sound spectrum of a "trumpet one octave lower" does not work. This may be the reason that low brass is built like flugelhorns, conical... This gives a warm and full sound. When you play forte on a valve trombone or french horn you will notice a very unpleasant sound. That is the true reason horn players have the hand inside the bell. It just don´t sound good played open and mezzoforte..

Baritone horns and cimbassos (cimbassi?) exist. The latter is just a valve contrabass trombone, and sounds fine when you get one that's well-built with a properly designed valve section.

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2023 9:48 am**

I play mainly bone quartet and brass quintet, along with pickup bands, filling in for college groups and church groups. The only place I would pull out my flugabone is either to play a solo at church or when I play at my father in laws place sitting around the camp fire. I just don't want to be responsible for intonation or blending with other instruments.I've tried flugabone when playing solos in quartet, but it just doesn't do it for me.

Valves are ok, as long as you can make them do the right thing. I'm much more comfortable on a slide. I see people trying to play valve bones in inappropriate places, though, and that's cringey stuff.

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2023 11:28 am**

One thing I see trumpet players doing that valve trombones are incapable of is to adjust the 1st and 3rd valve tuning slides to compensate intonation. This is done generally by better players; too many Community Banders don't even pull the slides at all.

If the valve trombones came with rings or saddles on the 1st and 3rd valves the valve trombone might be a better fit.

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2023 2:07 pm**

BGuttman wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 11:28 am One thing I see trumpet players doing that valve trombones are incapable of is to adjust the 1st and 3rd valve tuning slides to compensate intonation. This is done generally by better players; too many Community Banders don't even pull the slides at all.

If the valve trombones came with rings or saddles on the 1st and 3rd valves the valve trombone might be a better fit.

Although they don't come with rings or saddles on the 1st and 3rd valves, they can be upgraded.
https://www.valvetrombonesrus.com/infor ... -triple-c/

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2023 3:10 pm**

Hi all !

I played valve trombone for one year and half , at the very beginning . Then i switch to the slide .
Was really fun ; my instrument was a Kalison ( old Italian brand) , very good one , with a 3rd valve slide that could be moved by an attached ring , to adjust intonation ( as in the trumpet) .

Of course , valve trombone do not have the sound of the slide trombone , but I think that is a beautiful instrument too.

I think that to learn valve trombone is an useful thing . First , because you learn the valve system , so you can play also euphonium , baritone , bass trumpet , ecc .
Second , because is a trombone' family member , like alto , contrabass , ecc .

Anyway , in my opinion valve trbn is not a " trumpet one octave lower" (as Trombonic wrote above) .
Valve trombone is (of course) a trombone with no handslide , that has been replaced from the mpc' receiver to the tenon with a same length tube , with 3 valves added ..

Also , I do not find french horn played at louder volume to be bad ( as Trombonic wrote too) :
here , Mahler 3rd Simphony first movement

Regards
Giancarlo

Posted: **Thu May 04, 2023 8:12 pm**

The problem (such as it is) with valve trombones is that we expect them to sound like, well, trombones. It's a different instrument with a different sound. Neither objectively superior or inferior to other brass instruments that play in the same register (i.e., slide trombone, euphonium, American baritone, British baritone, Bb tenor horn, bass trumpet, etc.), but simply different.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 8:18 am**

I like the sound of Raul de Souza's valve trombone. I know he used a large bore valve trombone in C.
Why don't manufacturers make such large bore valve trombones instead of stuffy small bore valve trombones?

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 6:16 pm**

Thanks. I appreciate your knowledge and experience.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 6:22 pm**

CharlieB wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 4:25 pm valve or slide - your preference

I play both.
It's all about the sound.

Thanks for the feedback and wonderful sounds.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 6:24 pm**

ATXBassBone wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 10:07 pm Valve trombones were the rage for nearly 100 years. Mahler was the first to have his ensembles go back to the slide trombone after many decades playing valves. Verdi was entirely valves. Wagner was also more than likely valves.

I would really love to be in a section that had a great set of valve trombones! But it's not as common even if they get a more accurate sound on some rep.
.

Thanks for the knowledgeable reply.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 6:25 pm**

Digidog wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 11:51 pm I'm not too keen on the valve trombone sound, though I like the feeling of playing valved instruments - ironically.

I think valve trombones have a slightly nasal and stuffed tone, which I'm just not into. I looove the open range and the precision of pitch on my slide trombone.

On horns, I think that "squeezed" sound works very well, so maybe it's only prejudice, maybe it's the size and the construction of the trombone that to my ears doesn't do well with valves.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 6:26 pm**

Trombonic wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 12:14 am I also play trumpet, euphonium and tuba. I would never play (or even try) a valve trombone...I do not like the sound...Brookmeyer sounds fine but only when playing not too loud..

Thanks.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 6:27 pm**

Pezza wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 1:27 am I play tenor trom, bass trom & eupho. Much prefer the eupho.

Can't stand valve troms. All that I have played have been awful and others that have played on 1 in the band couldn't blend!

If you want to play trombone learn the slide!
Few, if any, decent bands would accept an alto trom on horn parts, or soprano trom on cornet parts! You would need to learn the instrument. So why is it acceptable to throw a valve player on a valve trom?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 6:28 pm**

hyperbolica wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 6:03 am I play both. I prefer slides for 2 reasons - intonation and slide effects. When I use valves, I do it for a couple of reasons - compact size and minimal motion. Flugabone is my main valve instrument.

gotcha

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 6:29 pm**

Ozzlefinch wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 6:00 pm I play slide and 4-valve trombones because I like making myself suffer.

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 6:31 pm**

spencercarran wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 10:10 pm
Pezza wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 1:27 amCan't stand valve troms. All that I have played have been awful and others that have played on 1 in the band couldn't blend!
This is the key point, I think. There are very few well-designed, decent quality valve trombones on the market at all, and certainly none in wide circulation. Obviously since many of us play valved instruments, we're aware there are configurations of valves that can work very well - it's just that modern manufacturers haven't bothered to iterate and develop a good valve trombone.
Thank you

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 6:33 pm**

BGuttman wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 11:28 am One thing I see trumpet players doing that valve trombones are incapable of is to adjust the 1st and 3rd valve tuning slides to compensate intonation. This is done generally by better players; too many Community Banders don't even pull the slides at all.

If the valve trombones came with rings or saddles on the 1st and 3rd valves the valve trombone might be a better fit.

excellent points

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 6:35 pm**

Trombo wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 8:18 am I like the sound of Raul de Souza's valve trombone. I know he used a large bore valve trombone in C.
Why don't manufacturers make such large bore valve trombones instead of stuffy small bore valve trombones?

nice

Posted: **Fri May 05, 2023 6:36 pm**

Believe it or not, these comments and examples have helped me a lot. Thanks everybody!

TromboneChat

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