TromboneChat

Hi all, I’m wondering if anyone out there has found a successful route for putting an 8 inch flare on a small bore Bach horn. 36/34 bells are too large at the stem, and King/Conns seem need a crutch at the stem to fit in properly. The old “Peppy” bells that are floating around out there fit King 2Bs well, but also need a crutch to fit snugly on the Bach tenons.


If you’ve done this successfully, how’d you go about it? What flare did you use? I love the feel of Bachs, but the 7.5in flare is a bit small sometimes.
Thanks!

My recollection is that the King 2B and Conn 6H tuning slides are so close as to be interchangeable, if not the same part. Bachs are a little narrower, but should be pretty close if the Peppy bells fit a 2B. Therefore… I’d look for a Conn 6H bell or maybe a 12/18H since those share parts with the 6H and are more readily available.

Shires and 3B stems are an inch too short. (I'm sure the Shires mandrel has the length on it if you really wanted to $pend, but they're probably not desperate to do it either).

Do Landress still have any Marcinkiewicz stuff?

8" unsoldered Conn might not be Bach-y enough to appeal, even if it fit.

Speaking from zero experience, this seems like exactly the time to screw bell cut a thinner Bach, and then just worry about an 8" flare (chop a salvage 3B or 606/carbon fiber/pie pan). You get a horn that already makes sense, as much of the intonation/feel-determining taper as possible is retained, and then you get to bring out the rainfall shower head when needed.

ngrinder wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:09 pm The old “Peppy” bells that are floating around out there

PS tell me about these

Peppy Pettinato made a lot of the Mt. Vernon bells; believe he made some bells when the Bach factory moved too.

Conn 6H tuning slide big leg ID: .715

Bach small bore tuning slide big leg ID: .725

They're not far off. Not interchangeable but a tuning slide receiver swap might work.

Matt K wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:42 pm Peppy Pettinato made a lot of the Mt. Vernon bells; believe he made some bells when the Bach factory moved too.

I know the first part... it's the 'took a mandrel home as a leaving gift?' part that I'm interested in, and/but if the fit is different, maybe they're based on something else...

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:49 pm Bach small bore tuning slide big leg ID: .725

Officially it 'was' .721 - and my NY8 is exactly that - but I've seen up to .732 in the 80s. OD is inconsistent over a similar range, sometimes exactly .776 (same as 3B), sometimes smaller.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:55 pm

Officially it 'was' .721 - and my NY8 is exactly that - but I've seen up to .732 in the 80s. OD is inconsistent over a similar range, sometimes exactly .776 (same as 3B), sometimes smaller.

Yes, I should have said this on my '90s 16M with my Chinese calipers... don't take it for gospel down to the thousandth. But it's close!

I've seen those "Peppy" bells on eBay from time to time. I went to his shop for repairs a few times while I was in NYC - a 3rd or 4th floor walk-up in a smaller building in the west 50's. I often wondered what horns they were made to fit, or if he intended to make an entire horn (or at least a bell section). He used to make copies of mouthpieces as well, and I knew a few players that were playing one of his copies of a favorite mouthpiece where the original perhaps belonged to a teacher or colleague.

Jim Scott

Thanks for the replies!

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:28 pm
Speaking from zero experience, this seems like exactly the time to screw bell cut a thinner Bach, and then just worry about an 8" flare (chop a salvage 3B or 606/carbon fiber/pie pan). You get a horn that already makes sense, as much of the intonation/feel-determining taper as possible is retained, and then you get to bring out the rainfall shower head when needed.

I've talked to a tech about this, and it's not a bad idea. The answer I was given was that it's very hard to exactly match the bell angles up to create a perfect thread-seam, but I should explore this more! Seems like you're totally right about keep the "feel" of things as close to Bach as possible, outside of the extra weight on the bell.

The Peppy bell I had was a 2 piece, and even outside of that, is very much unlike any Bach bell I've seen in flare shape. I'm not sure of the actual provenance of the bell, but the flare didn't look like any of the other Bachs I own. I wish I had more information on it.

I also have a Peppy mouthpiece (stamped "PEPPY" not PHD) that is really comfortable, but wide like a 3 and very shallow. Pretty odd - but I played it for a while and liked it!

ngrinder wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 12:33 am I've talked to a tech about this, and it's not a bad idea. The answer I was given was that it's very hard to exactly match the bell angles up to create a perfect thread-seam, but I should explore this more!

If you really want to get technical, find out from Olsen how they make their custom tapered rings. The issue is whether changes in internal taper alter the ID at the break point, or whether that's the constant on their CAD drawing and it's the upper and lower dimensions that shift either side.

If the break ID can stay constant, you get two rings sets made (or one female, two male), one to fit the Bach taper and one to fit the donor flare. Then the only thing disturbing the thread seam is any difference in bell wall thickness, which should be pretty minor, and is easily feathered in any case.

If that's not possible, you get two identical ring sets made to match the Bach taper. The first complete set goes on the original bell. The second male section goes on the donor flare, and any required adjustment is treated as a dent machine problem (make an initial cut very slightly above the final seam line, and then tweak the flare opening English wheel-style for a good fit).


The other possibility I forgot - an 8" small Rath (R12/10/1/2) bell. 2 piece, but soldered and their whole design is rooted in Bach geometry. You'd have to lose the modular fittings (the bell is the right length overall, but they're mounted forward in King position relative to the mouthpiece receiver), but I bet the taper is a good fit.

Mark Nightingale's original Rath R1 was based off a Bach 16 so I would have thought they would be a good fit. Also there is an 8 Inch bell option. However they are 2 piece!

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:28 pm Shires and 3B stems are an inch too short. (I'm sure the Shires mandrel has the length on it if you really wanted to $pend, but they're probably not desperate to do it either).

I don't know about the fit - but 1 inch in bell length probably has very little effect on pitch. It's not equivalent to one inch length in smaller bore parts of the horn.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:28 am

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:28 pm Shires and 3B stems are an inch too short. (I'm sure the Shires mandrel has the length on it if you really wanted to $pend, but they're probably not desperate to do it either).

I don't know about the fit - but 1 inch in bell length probably has very little effect on pitch. It's not equivalent to one inch length in smaller bore parts of the horn.

Yup - the issue would be bell position. If you keep the Bach neckpipe as is, the flare would end up 3/4" closer to your face than it is on a Williams.

That might be too much of a good thing for most people... though I wouldn't mind trying it

Fidbone wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:32 am Mark Nightingale's original Rath R1 was based off a Bach 16 so I would have thought they would be a good fit. Also there is an 8 Inch bell option. However they are 2 piece!

I didn’t know this! Thank you! I wouldn’t mind a 2 piece-just don’t want to mess with any of the crook shapes.

Another solution to the “too short bell stem” problem is to braze an inch or so of extra stem from a sacrificial bell stem from another bell. I used a chunk of an Olds Ambassador bell stem to lengthen a Reynolds bass trombone bell and make it “Bach length.” You just need to make sure you use the appropriate section from the sacrificial bell the matches the diameter measurements the best. It’s a lot of work for just adding an inch to the bell stem, but it will do the job!

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:34 pm

ngrinder wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:09 pm The old “Peppy” bells that are floating around out there

PS tell me about these

I have some old Peppy bells. I bought them at Rod Baltimore’s store in Manhattan in the mid-1990s. They had 3 or 4 dozen of them at that time. I think I bought 6 of them at that time and have 3 or 4 left. They are 2-piece yellow brass construction with a 7 7/8 flare diameter. When cut to length, the stem end is very close to the Conn diameter.

Of course, I have no way to authenticate that they were actually made by Peppy! I only paid about $25 per flare back then, so I might have been gullible to a bell flare scam.

Hey Nick

I just now saw this thread.

I played a Bach 12 for close to 30 years. Many times I wondered about the same thing. I was an artist/clinician for Bach Selmer for around 10 years and I think I ran the question by the regional rep….had Bach ever considered having the option for an 8” bell.

I found that I much prefer the larger bell. That’s one reason why I switched to playing Conn 6H. Another reason was that I just couldn’t get enough from my Bach 12. It was an easy horn to play, but in situations with no p.a. (or an inadequate one), I’d find myself blowing my brains out to be heard. With the Conn, not a problem.

I’d be interested to follow your search.

gregwaits wrote: ↑Tue May 09, 2023 10:40 pm Hey Nick

I just now saw this thread.

I played a Bach 12 for close to 30 years. Many times I wondered about the same thing. I was an artist/clinician for Bach Selmer for around 10 years and I think I ran the question by the regional rep….had Bach ever considered having the option for an 8” bell.

I found that I much prefer the larger bell. That’s one reason why I switched to playing Conn 6H. Another reason was that I just couldn’t get enough from my Bach 12. It was an easy horn to play, but in situations with no p.a. (or an inadequate one), I’d find myself blowing my brains out to be heard. With the Conn, not a problem.

I’d be interested to follow your search.

Hi Greg, thanks for the reply!

I too find that volume is the biggest issue for me with the 7.5 inch bells. I love them on mics and in instances when the overall sonic footprint lands in a much smaller space, but improvising, trying to cut over a ride cymbal, and in certain loud horn section gigs, it can be really frustrating. I also feel that many big bands these days are skewing towards a more "wind band" type sound that tends to favor larger instruments, especially in the inner voices. My $.02 obviously, I just have had an easier time of things with a larger bell.

I have two small bore Bach horns that circumvent the projection issues that are somewhat inherent to the instrument's design which you allude to. The first is an extremely lightweight Corp 12 bell I play with a dual bore 16 slide and a nickel leadpipe and counterweight. This horn can be very punchy and cuts like crazy while still having a floaty, warm subtone vibe that works fantastic for inner voices. The other is a NY Bach 8 bell with a nickel neckpipe I pair with a custom LW .495-.500 nickel/brass slide. This bell typical of NY Bachs - heavy, but extremely colorful and versatile. Between the two horns I feel I have a great spread of what can be achieved with a *good* Bach, and both add up to be similarly versatile instruments through almost opposite means. I use these horns in both big bands and commercial settings where I need to achieve a broader more "classical" approach-and they are great save for my issues with volume and sitting on top of a ride.

People might wonder why I continue to play Bach given how much customization I've had to do to make them work...and it's a good question. I feel like there is *something* about these horns that I can't find anywhere else. I have owned King 2Bs and 3Bs in silver and brass, been through my share of 6Hs, owned small bore Shires (which were very good - I almost kept the MD+), Yamaha....no dice. I really just wish they'd make an 8 inch bell.

The closest I came to finding what I was looking for was putting a "Peppy" made 8 inch bell on a Bach 12 chassis with a shim to make the flare fit into tuning slide. For whatever reason the instrument didn't play that well and I had to move on, even though it checked a lot of the boxes on paper and felt extremely comfortable. It was a classic sound vs comfort scenario, and sound always wins for me. Outside of that, I haven't made much progress on the idea of the 8 inch bell, mostly because I've been so busy. One of my next steps was going to be calling Bach and attempting to put this idea forward, but I doubt someone like me would have much sway with the company. I'll keep the thread updated...

I bet the M&W 500 bore with the 8”, one piece bell is about as close to optimal as a hypothetical MV Bach with an 8” bell would play.

One piece bells have very specific response/sound qualities. 2 piece bells have their own specific response/sound qualities, too. It won't matter which 2 piece bell you try, it isn't going to play like a 1 piece bell, regardless of the final flare diameter.

I would be happy to talk about options if interested. A 1 piece, soldered French bead with an 8" diameter is absolutely doable, and would be a player!

My memory may be a bit foggy, but...

Didn't Courtois have something very similar to what you're looking for a few years ago?
I want to say it was in the 100 series? Prior to the current 400 series?

@ngrinder ^^

What you're attempting to build sounds like an Olds Recording:
Dual bore nickle silver slide .495/.510
8" diameter bell, red brass
The sound is like a small bore Shires, but more of it.

Weren’t all the olds instruments two piece bells? I admittedly know much less about them than other manufacturers.

If I remember correctly, Trombonist Luis Bonila plays a 16M customized to have a 36 bell on it.
I talked with him about a number of years ago. I believe e wanted more sound and spread of the sound.

A 16M slide will insert into a 36 handslide receiver, with no modification. Of course the 36 bell section is larger in every aspect from the HSR to the bell flare, compared to the 16.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:43 am A 16M slide will insert into a 36 handslide receiver, with no modification. Of course the 36 bell section is larger in every aspect from the HSR to the bell flare, compared to the 16.

I wonder what the difference is in gooseneck specs.

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 9:55 am Weren’t all the olds instruments two piece bells? I admittedly know much less about them than other manufacturers.

The Olds Recording has a two piece bell.
The Shires Michael Davis model that the OP liked also has a two piece bell.
Bach offers horns with one or two piece bells.

Just for fun, I was inspired to try it out—Model 8 slide with 36 bell section. The results were interesting…the parts mated together perfectly despite almost a 30-year age difference. It plays very sharp, but the response is fine and the tone has a neat character.

I found the same issue with volume on 7.5" bells and solved it with the Recording, but it sounds/feels nothing like a Bach.

It does read like you like dual bores. As a couple of others mentioned, a Rath R1 with an 8" bell might be the ticket but that's going to set you back some money. Raths play more like Bachs than any other horn I can think of.

I think Landress had a couple of old Williams 6 flares lying around. You might see about strapping one of those onto a Bach. Should be the same length as a Bach flare.

Bach offers horns with one or two piece bells.

No, they don't. The only 2 piece bells Bach have offered have been very rare one-offs from New York, or Mercedes/intermediate models.

TromboneMonkey wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 2:04 pm I found the same issue with volume on 7.5" bells and solved it with the Recording, but it sounds/feels nothing like a Bach.

No surprise there. I love my Olds Recording (0.495"/0.510" dual-bore nickel-silver slide, 8" Re-O-Loy red brass bell), but it sounds nothing like any Bach I've ever heard.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 10:43 am A 16M slide will insert into a 36 handslide receiver, with no modification. Of course the 36 bell section is larger in every aspect from the HSR to the bell flare, compared to the 16.

Pitch on that setup can only be described at "David Lynchian," though it definitely works and is an interesting blow.

Matt, if you want to build me a one piece bell that can fit snugly in a small bore Bach tuning slide, let's definitely talk! I can send an email through the official channels and maybe we setup a time to chat on the phone. I've heard great things about your small bore horns through Ray and others.

That Courtois 100 series is not a bad horn! I owned one for a few months, I believe the bell was 7.75in. It was very, very heavy though and wasn't for me. A good, one-piece Bach bell is a hard thing to come by and to duplicate.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 3:40 pm Bach offers horns with one or two piece bells.

No, they don't. The only 2 piece bells Bach have offered have been very rare one-offs from New York, or Mercedes/intermediate models.

Maybe Bach made this two-piece bell horn, or maybe they imported it from Asia. ?????? But to me, if a horn says Bach on it, it's a Bach.
https://www.billsmusic.com/bach-tb301-s ... ss-finish/

CharlieB wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 12:40 pm

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 3:40 pm Bach offers horns with one or two piece bells.

No, they don't. The only 2 piece bells Bach have offered have been very rare one-offs from New York, or Mercedes/intermediate models.

Maybe Bach made this two-piece bell horn, or maybe they imported it from Asia. ?????? But to me, if a horn says Bach on it, it's a Bach.
https://www.billsmusic.com/bach-tb301-s ... ss-finish/

The student models have always been two piece. They don't count here.

CharlieB wrote: ↑Sat May 13, 2023 12:40 pm

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri May 12, 2023 3:40 pm Bach offers horns with one or two piece bells.

No, they don't. The only 2 piece bells Bach have offered have been very rare one-offs from New York, or Mercedes/intermediate models.

Maybe Bach made this two-piece bell horn, or maybe they imported it from Asia. ?????? But to me, if a horn says Bach on it, it's a Bach.
https://www.billsmusic.com/bach-tb301-s ... ss-finish/

Matt meant the student models as well when he said “intermediate”. The Bach stencils are, as Aidan mentioned, not quite what people are meaning when they’re after a “Bach” sound.

Yes. In the context of this discussion, "Bach" refers to the professional "Stradivarius" models, from New York, Mt Vernon and Elkhart, which have only ever been made with 1 piece bells.

Bach alse brand and sell stencil student model instruments that are foreign made, which use 2 piece bells. They are not professional model instruments.

ngrinder wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 11:20 pm I too find that volume is the biggest issue for me with the 7.5 inch bells. I love them on mics and in instances when the overall sonic footprint lands in a much smaller space, but improvising, trying to cut over a ride cymbal, and in certain loud horn section gigs, it can be really frustrating. I also feel that many big bands these days are skewing towards a more "wind band" type sound that tends to favor larger instruments, especially in the inner voices. My $.02 obviously, I just have had an easier time of things with a larger bell.

I have two small bore Bach horns that circumvent the projection issues that are somewhat inherent to the instrument's design which you allude to. The first is an extremely lightweight Corp 12 bell I play with a dual bore 16 slide and a nickel leadpipe and counterweight. This horn can be very punchy and cuts like crazy while still having a floaty, warm subtone vibe that works fantastic for inner voices. The other is a NY Bach 8 bell with a nickel neckpipe I pair with a custom LW .495-.500 nickel/brass slide. This bell typical of NY Bachs - heavy, but extremely colorful and versatile. Between the two horns I feel I have a great spread of what can be achieved with a *good* Bach, and both add up to be similarly versatile instruments through almost opposite means. I use these horns in both big bands and commercial settings where I need to achieve a broader more "classical" approach-and they are great save for my issues with volume and sitting on top of a ride.

I don't know if he still lives in NYC, but perhaps you could reach out to Glen Pine. He plays trombone for a band called The Slackers. He plays a small bore Bach and has zero trouble cutting through any sonic situation I've ever heard him live on at least a dozen+ occasions on or off the mic. I'm not sure which model he plays, but it sure looks like a sub-8" bell to me. Not sure if there's anything unique about his setup, or if what I've heard him do is in spite of his equipment. I've adored his sound for years and when I read what you're looking for sonically and the equipment you're trying to use to get there, I instantly thought of Glen. Just a thought, good luck on your quest.

I just bought a real Frank-en-Bach
It`s the inner slide and Bell Chassis of a Bach 16M (including the horrible short 16M Leadpipe)
The outer slide is a 3B and a Yellow Brass Edwards 8" Bell . The tuning slide is definitely not a Bach
The horn plays good, I did however find a used Kanstul H8 Leadpipe and when it arrives That will improve the playing considerably
I `ve layed small bore Bach`s for a number of years so the 8" Bell felt weird and huge but I`m getting used to it

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2023 6:11 pm I just bought a real Frank-en-Bach
It`s the inner slide and Bell Chassis of a Bach 16M (including the horrible short 16M Leadpipe)
The outer slide is a 3B and a Yellow Brass Edwards 8" Bell . The tuning slide is definitely not a Bach
The horn plays good, I did however find a used Kanstul H8 Leadpipe and when it arrives That will improve the playing considerably
I `ve layed small bore Bach`s for a number of years so the 8" Bell felt weird and huge but I`m getting used to it

I missed that horn by minutes! If you want to get rid of it, let me know!

Nick,
I just bought a like new Kanstul H8 Leadpipe for it.
That`s what I have on my 16M. The stock 16M leadpipe sucks!!
The horn (when if focus`s plays really well)

Not getting rid of it yet, but I`ll keep you in mind

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 04, 2023 7:46 pm Nick,
I just bought a like new Kanstul H8 Leadpipe for it.
That`s what I have on my 16M. The stock 16M leadpipe sucks!!
The horn (when if focus`s plays really well)

Not getting rid of it yet, but I`ll keep you in mind