TromboneChat

I saw a video showcasing a 1915 hawkes & co excelsior tenor trombone and apparently its 0.468" so now Im wondering if there were any smaller bores and how do they play?

.394" (10mm) isn't unusual for sackbuts, and they play like sackbuts.

It's not only a historical thing... my Amati alto (an American-style instrument) is .453" and not stuffy at all. German-style altos and tenors also begin around that range.

The Conn 2H is .458". Plays like a trombone, but pretty bright.

Bach 4 is .468", not much bigger than the 2H.

German size Weite 1 starts very small. Jurgen Voigt still makes them, .452"/.492" dual bore with a 9" bell (and an F attachment!). They also make a tenor on the other end of the scale, .550"/9.75" straight tenor.

I'm sure there are other peashooters from the early 20th century that are 2H-sized or smaller. Back then "large bore" often meant something like .508".

100 years ago, trombones this small were the norm. If you went to hear Sousa's band, or the great soloist Arthur Pryor, you were hearing .458" instruments. As late as the early 1960s, trombones of this size were still being played in the Concertgebouw Orchestra, famous for their performances of Bruckner and Mahler. They were also still found in many other orchestras in Great Britain, France, Italy and other European countries. And they sounded fine. They didn't blend as well - when the trombones played, you really noticed them. They could be very brash. The large bores that became the norm have civilized the trombone, helping it to blend in with the other instruments and create a more refined, warm sound.

My Voigt alto is .452 bore.

SteveM wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:25 pm They didn't blend as well - when the trombones played, you really noticed them. They could be very brash. The large bores that became the norm have civilized the trombone, helping it to blend in with the other instruments and create a more refined, warm sound.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Large bore sounds different for sure, and it's the sound that is expected now. But I don't think it's inherently any more (or less) refined. Larger (and larger, and larger) equipment allows players to play louder. In some ways it requires them to play louder – you need to play much louder if you want any kind of brightness, which is often needed, and it doesn't blend or sound so great in extremely soft dynamics, so most of the time you don't hear orchestral sections play any less than mp. Which isn't the case, for example with (smaller bored) traditional German instruments. Those sing at soft dynamics, and become bright much earlier, and their ff doesn't need to be nearly as loud to be heard as such. And they pretty much sound as "warm" as it gets. I'm not sure the rest of the orchestra would always agree that the amount of sheer sound power coming from the trombones in modern sections is "civilized".

Maximilien,
I agree with what you are saying, and I may not have expressed what I wanted to say quite the way I intended. Your posts are always illuminating, so thanks for once again shedding additional light on the subject!

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:17 am

SteveM wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:25 pm They didn't blend as well - when the trombones played, you really noticed them. They could be very brash. The large bores that became the norm have civilized the trombone, helping it to blend in with the other instruments and create a more refined, warm sound.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Large bore sounds different for sure, and it's the sound that is expected now. But I don't think it's inherently any more (or less) refined. Larger (and larger, and larger) equipment allows players to play louder. In some ways it requires them to play louder – you need to play much louder if you want any kind of brightness, which is often needed, and it doesn't blend or sound so great in extremely soft dynamics, so most of the time you don't hear orchestral sections play any less than mp. Which isn't the case, for example with (smaller bored) traditional German instruments. Those sing at soft dynamics, and become bright much earlier, and their ff doesn't need to be nearly as loud to be heard as such. And they pretty much sound as "warm" as it gets. I'm not sure the rest of the orchestra would always agree that the amount of sheer sound power coming from the trombones in modern sections is "civilized".

This is very true!

I am, personally, not always fond of the too large trombone sound. It can be too loud and broad at the wrong occasions; where one would have wanted clarity and definition with less loudness.

I think that one reason for the growth of the trombone, is because orchestras have grown significantly in size. Since the trombone plays in a range of frequencies that is occupied by cellos, alto violins and double basses, an increase in numbers of those instruments force a change in the colouring instruments that complement those sections - since the numbers of brass instruments haven't changed as have the numbers of strings.

The best symphonic trombone sections I have played in, have to their basics consisted of a small/medium principal, a medium second, medium/large third, and bass (regardless of what part I have been playing). This sounds cliché, but I believe in timbre-thinking and in assisting that with size-planning (within reason, of course) a section.