TromboneChat

Hi everyone,
I have two different weight counterweights for my Bach 42 . I seem to get a different sound / feel with the different weights and also if I take the weights off entirely. Especially trying to get my high Ab to ring clear and true.
Has anyone experimented with different weight counterweights?

thank you
Randy

My purely UN-scientific opinion is that counterweights very much affect the vibration and feedback you get from the horn as you play, but the sound? Not so much. Again, my personal opinion.

Here’s a related thread:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=26736

They absolutely affect the sound as well. I had a very good player A/B his 42TG with a counterweight and without, the sound difference was night and day.

I used 2 counterweights with a Conn 8HLT bell i had. Really centered up the sound in my opinion. The custom small bore bell did the same thing when i added a counterweight. Counterweights do have an effect on sound.

I have one of magnetic counterweights on my trombone, big difference with it on or off and one isn’t better than the other, just different sounds

Anything that changes the way the air will movie through the instruments will change what we hear come out. The degree of that will vary but there is always a change. Even putting a leather sleeve on the neck pipe will change how that part of that instrument responds. We can feel this and it does change how we play the instrument and what the end result is. This is one of the reason I don’t add anything to my horns unless absolutely necessary such as grips for my large tenor and bass trombones. The Sheridan grips have a smaller effect on the feel because they don’t put as much pressure on those parts. Removing any counterweight will free up the instrument, it just depends on if that change is what you want and then can deal with the balance issues of the horn. Everything we do have a effect on the instrument.

I feel that the counterweight DOES affect the sound, but it is always balanced (bad pun) by the ergonomics of the instrument. To me, it seems that a counterweight usually means for a darker and more centered sound. it seems that you just gotta try something and then see if it worked.

I think counterweight add too much resistence in a trombone wich is already balanced without, for that reason everything seems to be more compressed. It changes the way of playing the instrument. In my opinion everything feels more heavy (attacks, range, lip slurs ecc...).

I added a counterweight to my front-heavy Olds Recording (thanks to John Sandhagen who drilled it out to fit), and haven't looked back. It's a lot more comfortable. If it has affected anything negatively, it is minor.

Could someone explain how a counterweight could add resistance or change the way the air moves in the instrument? I mean, come on, it's outside of the trombone. I must be missing something.

SteveM wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:11 pm Could someone explain how a counterweight could add resistance or change the way the air moves in the instrument? I mean, come on, it's outside of the trombone. I must be missing something.

Same way different materials and weights thereof change player feedback and response characteristics. 'Resistance' is usually playerese for a complicated set of perceptions most of which don't correspond directly to fluid dynamics.

This is where we'd expect robcat to pop up and question whether all materials sound the same... Speaking of, has anyone heard from him lately? Hope all's well there.

SteveM wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:11 pm Could someone explain how a counterweight could add resistance or change the way the air moves in the instrument? I mean, come on, it's outside of the trombone. I must be missing something.

It's an acoustic effect, but we perceive it as a change in resistance to air flow.

Me, I've never felt it, but I'll defer to the much better players here and stipulate that the effect is real, even if our description of the mechanism behind is not accurate.

I have three different weights for my Bachs, Conns and Edwards (total of 9 different weights). I find that my heavier bells usually work best with lighter weights and lighter/thinner bells match well with medium to heavy weights.

My straight Edwards 320 and 321 bells (both on the heavy side) mate very well with my lightest Edwards balance weight, which I ground down to about 55% of the original weight.

My 8H bell from the early 1960’s (very thin and light) plays best with the original full-weight Conn balancer. My 1926 8H is a much heavier bell and mates best with a much lighter Conn balance weight that I bought from the Clifford Feree collection.

Obviously, I believe that heavier and lighter weights make a significant difference in how a trombone plays. How about a related topic……..placement of the balance weight? From my experiments, the closer the balance weight is to the bell side, the more core and density in the sound. When closer to the gooseneck side, articulations are faster and easier. I have never experimented with moving the balancer to the next brace forward…..that would probably create a whole new set of options.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:37 pm...How about a related topic……..placement of the balance weight? From my experiments, the closer the balance weight is to the bell side, the more core and density in the sound. When closer to the gooseneck side, articulations are faster and easier. I have never experimented with moving the balancer to the next brace forward…..tha would probably create a whole new set of options.

Here's a counterweight Josh Landress made for me. (Shown on a 3b) I told him that I like the feel of half a Bach counterweight. He made a back out of aluminum (negligible weight) and attached it with what I believe to be ligature screws.

The blue tape is painter's tape.

I tend to move it around, take it off, put it back on, and drive myself crazy. Lately, it's almost like ankle weights, I get used to the lessened response, and then I enjoy taking it off.

SteveM wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:11 pm Could someone explain how a counterweight could add resistance or change the way the air moves in the instrument? I mean, come on, it's outside of the trombone. I must be missing something.

I apologize in advance for the rant/lecture, but I’ve been thinking and reading about this for a long time…

This is a good question, and I believe that the answers we are given are well-meaning but slightly inaccurate. I’m going to split some hairs here, but I believe it’s important to understand how things work to understand how to change them.

Changes to the outside of an instrument do not change the air flow inside an instrument. From the player’s perspective, we don’t have to be concerned about air flow inside a horn. What we are concerned with is the vibration and resonance of the standing column of air (I know, confusing) inside the horn.

We have to be concerned with air flow inside our bodies. We do our best to breath air in with minimal obstruction, and then blow air out with only as much tension as needed to produce a constant stream appropriate for the dynamic, range, and articulation. Once the air hits the lips and produces a vibration, we are mostly concerned about vibrating the air column.

Yes, some air is pushed through a horn, and some people spend a lot of time learning to push massive amounts of air in order to get a particular type of sound (usually called “big,” or “loud,” or “projecting,” or something like that). But that is simply the result of an imperfectly-sealed and irregularly-shaped vibrating surface—the lips. But it’s important to distinguish between (a) air that we use to excite the standing air column with the instrument and (b) air that we breath in and out.

lmalewic wrote: ↑Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:37 am Anything that changes the way the air will movie through the instruments will change what we hear come out.

JohnL wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:03 pm It's an acoustic effect, but we perceive it as a change in resistance to air flow.

These, I believe, are half right. Again, it’s not the air flow, but the vibration and resonance of the air column. Anything added to or removed from an instrument affects the vibration of the air column.

Ever wonder why custom and boutique makers offer bells with different gauges (thickness of the metal)? Because it affects the way the air column vibrates, and changes the subjective “feel” of the horn to the player. Ever wondered why a regular weight brass slide feels different than a lightweight brass slide? It’s because the sleeves at the top of the slide tubes have been removed, affecting the vibration and resonance of the air column. Ever wonder why some bells have a soldered bead (e.g., Bach) and others do not (vintage Conns)? It affects the standing air column, and changes the subjective “feel” of the horn to the player.

So, adding a counterweight (or a slide bumper, or a detachable valve, etc.) to an instrument does at least two things. It acts as a counter-balance, and makes the horn feel less front-heavy. This makes it easier to hold the instrument becausethere’s less torque on the hands and wrist. It has an added affect of allowing you to sit and stand straighter: you don’t hunch over as much, you can get a fuller breath, and there’s less tension.

The other thing a counterweight does is act like a “stiffener. ” By adding a piece of metal to one particular place on an instrument (in this case, a brace in the bell section), you change the behaviour of the standing air wave within the instrument. That is, you change the way the nodes and the antinodes of the harmonic series excite the standing pressure wave inside the instrument.

A similar thing happens when you have a waterkey cork that is split or missing, or the tuning slide doesn’t fit quite right, or a valve is misaligned. The nodes and antinodes of the air column have been changed, which affects the feeling of the instrument (which we mistakenly call “air flow resistance”), and it affects the sound that comes out of the bell.

***

A lot of what I wrote above doesn’t matter to the player, but like I said, it’s important to understand what’s really going on.

You can prove it to yourself quite easily by playing a piece of music with the counterweight, removing it, then playing that same piece again. Just notice what happens. Most people notice that it feels different. Some people really like it one way, some another. Not good or bad, just different. Whether you like it one way or another is up to you. It’s subjective.

Rant over.

Absolutely. And that "stiffening" effect is the same reason mouthpieces of different weights or balances can seem to behave differently. The leadpipe is the thinnest metal on a trombone, and its characteristics can be affected by the balance of the mouthpiece you plug into it, by that same "stiffening" effect.

And all of those things are also affected by the simple fact that you are holding the horn and dampening its vibrations too.

My experience with this, which others have asked about as well, is with my YBL-612 RII Bass trombone. It comes with Eb and D crooks for the second valve, and the D crook has its own 6 inch long tuning slide built in, as well as some braces, so it probably weighs 4-5 times what the Eb crook does. The feel of the Bb side of the horn is definitely affected by which crook I have installed on the horn.

The horn with the Eb crook is definitely more "alive", and I've noticed that the 612's Phil Teele is seen playing always have the Eb crook installed.