TromboneChat

I am a member of a community orchestra. Members are generally expected to pay dues to defray some of the costs.

We play 5 concerts. This season there will not be low brass in two of the concerts.

Have any if you been in a similar situation? What was the expectation in terms of the low brass paying a full share of the fees? I’ve always assumed it goes with the territory, and the orchestra generally tries to include us in each concert even if it is just one piece.

Oof. Touchy subject.

Pay to play: should it be pro-rated or apportioned? This is a BIG can of worms, but I would read the by-laws of the orchestra. If you don’t have a copy, or if it’s not available on-line or through a member portal, ask the orchestra representative or a member of the board.

I tried doing this in Japan, to make some friends here but they wanted ridiculous monthly fees, and then higher fees per concert as well. I was like, um, no thanks. They even charge for the concerts. Made no sense to me.

The board of the orchestra should be more aggressive canvassing local businesses for sponsorship. If the group can't provide interesting performance opportunities, then either voice your dissatisfaction out loud or find another group. If you continue to allow them to do that to you, they will keep doing it.

I don't pay dues to community groups. There are better ways to get funding. It doesn't take a lot. Donation basket at concert, ads in programs, grocery card campaign, it all adds up.

How much are the dues?

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:50 pm How much are the dues?

It varies.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:46 pm...the orchestra generally tries to include us in each concert even if it is just one piece.

Sometimes that can be a pain. We had one concert last season where the only piece the low brass played was Dukas' Fanfare pour précéder La Péri. Total playing time just about two minutes. I would've rather had the evening off.

The orchestra I play in does not charge dues, but there's talk of requiring members to sell a minimum number of concert tickets, which for me amounts to the same thing. The one advantage to that approach is that you're generally not expected to sell tickets for a concert that you're not a participating in.

Running an orchestra or band isn't cheap, even if you're not paying the musicians. Rent for rehearsal space, rent for performance venues, rent for storage space (for various equipment, and for a means of transporting said equipment), insurance, music, pay for the conductor and the concertmaster, pay for soloists, pay for "ringers" if you don't have people to cover the parts, or if you need something special (like a harp). It all adds up.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:21 pm

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:50 pm How much are the dues?

It varies.

It is hard to gauge the seriousness of this problem without that.

The number can not be said out loud?

My community band used to have dues of $20 a year. After a couple of years, we collected enough from donations at concerts to drop the dues.

Also a sticking point for me, as it irks me to "pay to play".

All the community groups I have been involved with solicit donations from members, but have not imposed a required fee. With the current org I am doing, most of the concerts we play involve some kind of fee to the sponsoring org (a town, a club, a local charity) paid to the band. And each concert includes a plea to the audience for donations. All the groups' concerts are free. It's my understanding that donations have greatly increased since covid, as the audiences really appreciate what the group offers.

btw, Most choruses have dues for their members, and they usually have to buy their own music.
That said, it would still creep me out to have to "pay to play".

I have a little different slant on this.
If you derive pleasure from any organization such as a club, band, orchestra or any other group that depends on contributions, they deserve your financial support. I am assuming that the dues are something you can reasonably afford. Your amount of participation really isn't a consideration if the group would not exist if you and some other members did not contribute a full share.
I would consider this a gift to the string players and to the audience who might otherwise not be able to attend a concert of good music.

Many of the community bands around here charge dues. I think a lot of that has to do with having some sort of reliable revenue stream to fund the basic needs of the group. If you're dependent on donations, sponsorships, and/or grants, you're vulnerable to those taps being shut off at any time. It's even worse if you depend on city or county funding - you have to justify your existence every time the budget comes up for review, and there's always at least a half dozen organizations ready to throw you under the bus some they can claim your share of the pie.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:48 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:21 pm

It varies.

It is hard to gauge the seriousness of this problem without that.

The number can not be said out loud?

The number can be double checked before being said out loud.

$150/season, $75 for seniors.

Gee. That sounds like tuition for a New Horizons ensemble. For many that would be pretty steep.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:08 pm Gee. That sounds like tuition for a New Horizons ensemble. For many that would be pretty steep.

Conductor’s fees, rent, music - it adds up. Income is from ticket sales and some gov’t grant money.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:56 pm

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:48 pm

It is hard to gauge the seriousness of this problem without that.

The number can not be said out loud?

The number can be double checked before being said out loud.

$150/season, $75 for seniors.

Count yourself lucky. The least expensive community band or orchestra I could find in Tokyo/Kanagawa was around $50 per month, and $70 per concert. The average seems to be $70 per month and $100 per concert. The concerts also charge $10-20 for a ticket, so I have no idea where the money is going, other than to pay for the really good concert halls each ward and city seem to have. Then again, most people will pay $20-30 an hour just to practice in a sound booth, since practicing in an apartment or densely packed neighborhood will get you complaints.

$150 per season is a lot, but after seeing what these bands want here I would have paid it if there was a band here with that system.

I pay $300/yr (30 or so rehearsals) to play in a big band. The biggest expense is director’s fees, while the main sources of income are dues and some gov’t grant money. Charts are also expensive.

I do get kinda frosted when I consider that I pay the same dues as a flute player, but I get to play a lot ess, and when I do play, there's very little that's of any significance. I'm not asking to pay less, mind you - I want those people in the front row to pay more. LOTS more.

You should offer to play the flute part on trombone

I burn a fair amount of gas driving to rehearsals and concerts.
One community band gets $5 from each member per concert to buy some snacks for a reception, another charges $25 per year.
My brother in Florida plays in a band that passes the hat at each weekly summer concert. He says they usually take in about $1500 each time. So it varies pretty wildly by area.

So I'll offer the perspective of someone who has founded and directed an amateur band. The costs really quickly go up, it can be almost impossible to do without member dues. In our case, when we started, I and the other co-director were doing it pro bono. We went out of our way to pay as little as possible for our first concert venues (local church with minimal rent). The biggest expense was rent on the rehearsal room (thousands per year). We borrowed charts from the school we were rehearsing at and from other more established bands in the region who were happy to help – this of course is not exactly legal, but there is no way we could have existed the first couple years without that, as charts are expensive, buying a whole concert's worth of music will quickly reach $1200-1500.

Even with such limited expenses, it would have been absolutely impossible to do without member dues. You just can't rely on ticket sales for an amateur group, because these tend to fluctuate a lot, and also vary with roster turnover. Depending where you are, grants may not be possible at all, and then it's sponsorships and donors, which aren't necessarily easy to get or retain. The best was developing lasting partnerships and get in-kind contributions that reduced expenses. But then you become dependent on those, and if they stop unexpectedly, you can be caught "with your pants down", so to speak. We adopted the approach that it was safest to have these member dues to cover the most basic expenses, and then any further income would help grow the band, get better venues for future concert, organise nice activities, start buying rather than borrowing charts, eventually pay the music directors, etc.

If it's a long running band with recurring engagements for concerts that are not self-organized but where the band gets paid to play, then of course it's different. I know some of those that still ask for member dues just for that basic security and then splurge with the extra revenue to do really cool stuff. The members there are having tons of fun being in those bands and don't mind paying.

Another perspective: I don't think I would be a working professional musician right now if I hadn't been in some of the bands and the youth orchestra I was in when I was 17-22, to supplement my learning. I certainly don't regret spending a cent of the dues I paid them during those years.

Yes, it’s expensive to run a band.

But the question was whether the low brass should have to pay full dues when they play in only 60% of the concerts.


One orch I play in almost always has some low brass. But it can be frustrating to attend rehearsals/performances where you’re done after half an hour. A French horn friend tells me an upcoming concert mostly requires only 2 horns. You’d think they’d switch off but I guess not.

I’m not flipping over this but am curious how other orchs deal with their low brass.

One orch I played in had dues that were the same regardless of what was played, they were annual and had no relationship to number of concerts or pieces played.

Another had a LOT of the brass/winds exempt… but they were mostly ringers brought in to assure a good performance.

Every band I play in has some level of dues. All of them have pretty open books, too if I ever want to review the finances (I do not).

Cheers,
Andy

Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:49 am Yes, it’s expensive to run a band.

But the question was whether the low brass should have to pay full dues when they play in only 60% of the concerts.


One orch I play in almost always has some low brass. But it can be frustrating to attend rehearsals/performances where you’re done after half an hour. A French horn friend tells me an upcoming concert mostly requires only 2 horns. You’d think they’d switch off but I guess not.

I’m not flipping over this but am curious how other orchs deal with their low brass.

Ah yes, I was addressing some of the comments rather than you initial query.
I do think in a case like this, where you aren't required, you shouldn't have to pay dues for that stretch of the season. Of course it depends how the year is organized. Most ensembles I know have one self-organized concert per "semester" and have dues for each semester in which case it's easy to ask not to pay the dues if you're not involved, but some had a fee for the whole year, which makes it trickier, but still it would be nice of them to offer a discount

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:41 pm You should offer to play the flute part on trombone

I've played the picc solo on The Stars and Stripes Forever before, but that was in a trombone quartet.

Actually, in one band, the reverse happens - they'll take part of a piece and redo it for flute choir, cutting out all or almost all of the other parts. They did that with Stars and Stripes this last summer.

Some orchestras develop some creative ways to increase donations and reduce the need for dues. For example, bake sales or sponsored auctions (local businesses donate a few items and get the chance to advertise).

Every time we swipe our credit card when we buy something, there is an attempt to guilt us into either a tip or a donation. How can a community band get in on this?

Community bands have bills to pay. Mine charges $25 for the year. It is a donation to a good cause and allows me to share my gifts and experience joy. Pretty good deal from my perspective.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:49 pm Community bands have bills to pay. Mine charges $25 for the year. It is a donation to a good cause and allows me to share my gifts and experience joy. Pretty good deal from my perspective.

The community band I play in has $20/year dues but our concerts are also free. I also feel like they don't ask for the dues every year. Sponsorships and donations cover a chunk of the expenses and the dues round it out. A community orchestra in my area that I'm looking at playing in has $50/year, and their bylaws don't mention anything about certain sections paying less. Their concerts cost money though. With that context, I was pretty surprised to see yours was $150/year, but maybe expenses are higher.

Amazon has a program called Amazon Smile where a portion of your purchases is donated to a worthy organization. My Amazon Smile contribution goes to my orchestra. It's not much, but if a lot of people buy into Amazon Smile for your organization it can add up.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:27 am Amazon has a program called Amazon Smile where a portion of your purchases is donated to a worthy organization. My Amazon Smile contribution goes to my orchestra. It's not much, but if a lot of people buy into Amazon Smile for your organization it can add up.

You beat me to this, Bruce! Great minds! It occurred to me this morning about that program and how we use it to donate to a local no-kill animal shelter. And apparently, we are not the only ones to do that b/c I get a statement from Amazon Smile every now and then showing how much that charitable organization has received.

So there IS a way for my earlier comment about donation solicitations from credit card purchases that could actually work.

A given community band could advertise this in whatever brochure they may have and/or notices of upcoming performances and notices at the performance about it, as well as the members themselves directing Amazon Smile donations.

It may not be much, but a few hundred dollars a year from people all around the community could make a difference.

In addition to rehearsal/performance space rental costs, obtaining new music can be a significant expense. It is possible to find free music online - I believe all of Sousa's marches are free to download from the Marine Band's website, for example. I also write holiday music for a group I play in to give us something new and interesting to play without spending any money. I have made some of these pieces available for free download for other groups so they can also have some new music without cost, as you can only play Christmas Festival and Sleigh Ride so many times.

I play in one wind ensemble that charges $50 dues per year and one orchestra that does not (they have good fundraising, a modest endowment and plenty of ads in the program). For the dues-paying group, it's always fun to try and get everyone to pay their dues!

Steve Troy

I sing in a church choir, a regional chorale, and I play in a big band. Each group handles finances differently.

Church choir is supported by tithes and offerings, so in part by what I choose to give voluntarily on Sundays.

The chorale has annual dues of $150. This year my music fee was $57. There is also a fundraising event. We sang one concert in November and will probably sing two concerts in the spring. In addition to the dues, we are expected to sell x number of tickets per concert. Our concerts cost $20 a ticket. I sold less than "x" tickets, and there were no repercussions.

My big band does not charge dues. We play about 30 dates a year. Most of these are private events, with a few ticketed events and a couple free events each year, depending on where we are playing.

I don't get involved in the business side, but I do recall the music director of the chorale once telling us that there are copyright expenses. Some of our concerts end up on YouTube, and there are licensing fees to post copyrighted music on the web. We were told that is not cheap. The chorale also commissions original music or arrangements, and I assume there is venue costs for rehearsal and concerts.

All of the business side of the big band is handled by the band leader. I know there are expenses for liability insurance (not for us; its for someone else who might trip over a microphone cord and get hurt). I assume there is licensing fees for the music we play. I believe the money for expenses comes from gig fees for the band. Our band leader told us that years back there was a one page contract for a gig; it is now 13 pages. She can handle the business end - that's fine by me.

I am also wait-listed for a community band. If there are dues I may end up doing just the chorale or the community band, but not both. I can only handle so much pay-to-play. I certainly understand the OP's frustration. If by any chance the orchestra is a 501c, perhaps the orchestra board might allow a tax writeoff for a pro-rated portion of the dues - as a charitable contribution - for concerts where low brass does not play. It wouldn't hurt to ask.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:08 pm Gee. That sounds like tuition for a New Horizons ensemble. For many that would be pretty steep.

Yup. I played in one for a season and a half (interrupted by Covid). University of Dayton Community Education was the umbrella. $90 per quarter. It chafed a little to pay it, but NH's mission encompassed enough other things (tutoring of beginners, for instance) to at least somewhat justify it. I made some friends and contracted Covid from the experience.

I'm accustomed to paying modest fees to the various amateur big bands I play in. I've been playing in a community college big band for several years that costs $68 per semester (although tuition for all classes has been waived since covid -- at all community colleges in California I think). This band rehearses weekly and performs only once per semester. Another band sponsored by a local city recreation department charges $85 twice per year. This band rehearses weekly and performs about 4 times per year. I was playing for free in a 3rd big band that was associated with a museum, but the band had a falling out with the museum management about money, performances, and rehearsal time. The band thought they had another rehearsal space lined up but it fell through and we haven't rehearsed in 3 months and the band's future is in doubt. I've recently been invited to start rehearsing with (and hopefully join) an "alumni" band of a local university (that I didn't attend). This band charges no fees, rehearses weekly, and performs monthly for free at a cafe.

I think a lot will depend on your location, and to some extent the playing standard. But where I am (South UK) most amateur groups would have to charge members, as costs of venue hire, storage space, MD fees, music, etc soon mount up. It's quite difficult to get significant corporate or public sponsorship, though possible for some special events. The (very good) wind band I'm in charge £100 pa to members, but get income from concerts also. The orchestra ask for voluntary donations, but are project based, rather than weekly. So if no low brass, nothing is expected. Indoor concerts are ticketed. Some brass bands are funded in part by playing carols, and big bands may pay a bit for gigs, but also may charge subs.

It is very interesting, and even a little sad to hear of the experiences of low brass players in community groups. There are a great many ways from the traditional to creative in which community groups can keep playing It is very expensive. I've played in the Civic Orchestra of Tucson for about 20 of its 46 years. The orchestra struggled in 2020-21 to stay afloat, as did most music organizations, but weathered it out. The orchestra has long established patrons, sponsorships and grants, along with member donations and the Amazon shopping benefit, which keeps open its vision of providing free quality classical music for the community. The orchestra also sponsors a long running sponsored Young Artists Competition, which offers cash prizes and an opportunity to perform a concert movement with the orchestra in the season finale, a popular, big bandshell park concert.
The orchestra also offers other popular sponsored events throughout the year, including an "Instrument Petting Zoo", where young pre-school kids can try out orchestral instruments for the first time.
This season there are 5 concert cycles of two or more performances each, plus the orchestra had two complete performances of the Nutcracker ballet, so there are at least 10-12 dates per season. It is a lot of work, but given that most of the 90-odd members are retired teachers or other professionals, there is some satisfaction gained in giving back to the community through music.

As a former member and officer of an AFM local, I naturally dislike the pay-to-play (or pay to stay [in the group]) model. I can understand it though for a new or new-ish community group.

Any established band or orch however should be breaking even and hopefully clearing a bit of profit - if not, there is an imbalance somewhere. Paying the music director too much, paying too much rent for sheet music, venue rent is too high, tickets are priced too low, lack of interest in obtaining sponsorships, etc.

Remember that before you even consider charging or paying ANY dues that everyone ALREADY pays each week through their gas tanks (and maybe parking and a road toll) and of course with time away from their families and other pursuits.

We pay $50 per year. During COVID we didn't practice and suspended dues. Paying the dues in our wind symphony gives you access to several additional venues with no additional fee. Those include a swing orchestra, two brass bands, corner band, and other off shoots.

The Civic Orchestra I play in dues’ are only $50 a year. And for that I get to sit next to a retired PhD in music playing bass trombone.

But more importantly for this discussion, one of our two conductors is a low brass player, so we always have music in our concerts for the low brass section. What you need is representation.