TromboneChat

I've played in orchestras off and on since HS, so "a few" decades or so. Currently I play in a very good community orchestra. A little while back it occurred to me that low brass members of orchestras are almost always playing "cold" no matter how extensive the warmup before a concert, due to all the rests. Exceptions would be "pops" oriented concerts where the arrangements often use brass a lot more than the classics do.

Any experienced players out there know any "tricks" to maximize confidence when you have to enter strong on a high B or C after resting for 2 movements, for example? Or a pianissimo high Ab? "Be real focused" is not really an answer for me.

I‘m a fellow community orchestra player with about 25 years experience of playing in community orchestras and other groups. Things that have helped me a lot for the challenge you mention, some of which I should have probably been doing earlier, are:

1) Keep the horn out on a stand somewhere, pick it up and play the exposed entries a few times a day to get familiar with how it feels to play them cold. It really does make a difference and I can‘t believe I didn’t start this years ago!

2) When doing the above, pay special attention to the ‚cold‘ tuning, for me personally I know I have to correct about 10 cents or so for cold, high exposed sections. Tuning slightly off the bumpers gives a bit more room to pull the odd note or two up a bit.

3) Sneak a few free buzzes in the louder tutti section prior to the entry, even better if you pick out some chords in the score where the entry note fits.

4) Something I’m experimenting with and seems promising is rather than trying to reach up to a high note, prepare like you have just played a slightly higher one and are coming down to the target note, probably just a mental thing but it somehow feels more relaxed to feel like you‘re coming down to a note?

5) In the car/office/park or wherever listen to the section before the entry on a recording and then free buzz or mouthpiece buzz the entry along with the recording.

6) Don‘t sweat the small stuff! Clipping a note is not the end of the world, it‘s live music and nobody is expecting a flawless performance. I‘m my own worst enemy about not wanting to stuff it up, partly for me but also not to let down the ensemble, but ultimately I am not relying on a reputation of playing everything perfectly to get gigs, paid or otherwise. I assume the same applies to you.

Practice it. Most of the skill is having that instant air on tap without the body getting on the way, if you can hear the pitch.

Practicing and being aware of your tongue and jaw placement for different registers.

By practice, I mean doing things like playing the high C as a clean quarter note. Then playing in the register two octaves below that. Then resting for a few seconds. Then coming back in on the high C cleanly for a quarter note.

Then listening to some of the previous movement of whatever piece you have to do that in without playing for a few minutes, and then coming in on a high C with the recording. Literally practice coming in on high Cs in a variety of situations.

I think the big hang up will be room response. It's one thing to do this in a room you can practice in all day. It's another thing to do it suddenly in a hall that you don't practice in, and is now full of bodies that make the response different.

To be specific on “practice it”…. Walk up to the horn completely cold and play the excerpt. Now, walking up to the horn and having your first notes of the day be something high and demanding may not be smart… but sometimes you have to replicate scenarios. Maybe do a warm up and practice session earlier, but then do something else for 25 minutes and come back to the horn. Perhaps play with the amount of time off… is there a time and limit to being able to feel comfortable? Figure out where you are and track where you think you need to be.

Cheers,
Andy

A lot of this can be assisted greatly with ear training. You have to be able to hear what it is that you're about to play w/o using the instrument as a "gauge" for what should be played. So if you need to pick out a high D like in Beethoven 9th.... you should be able to hear that pitch in your mind's eye as it approaches. If you can sing it, even better. In my experience, a lot of issues people have physically can be greatly assisted by ear training.

That includes things like transcription/dictation, singing (particularly doing intervals), score-study, and other things like chord identification.

You also need to be in good shape relative to the part you're playing, of course. I studied with Matt Niess who was w/ the Army Blues and always went by a 3x3 rule. You should be able to play the whole concert 3 times, 3 times a day. So wake up, run the set 3 times. Then do that at lunch. Then do it in the evening. That might be excessive, depending on the context infeasible as well. In many circumstances, if you're putting in a sufficient face time, the "cold" part of that goes away. I'm not disagreeing with those who are suggesting to practice the parts cold ,just that in addition to that if you want to be in shape... you have to be in shape.

You also need to be in good shape relative to the part you're playing, of course. I studied with Matt Niess who was w/ the Army Blues and always went by a 3x3 rule. You should be able to play the whole concert 3 times, 3 times a day. So wake up, run the set 3 times. Then do that at lunch. Then do it in the evening. That might be excessive, depending on the context infeasible as well. In many circumstances, if you're putting in a sufficient face time, the "cold" part of that goes away. I'm not disagreeing with those who are suggesting to practice the parts cold ,just that in addition to that if you want to be in shape... you have to be in shape.

Thank you but I'm not retired yet and this is not practical for me. I have high respect for Matt Niess but that 3x3 rule is unrealistic because there simply isn't enough time in a day to play a program 9 times! In my military band service we played up to 3 performances a day (max), then that trend faded - quality over quantity. Thank God.

It really helps me to learn the music by listening to a recording with the part/score before I try to play it. I will sing too. If I can hear the music in my head as the first step everything generally goes better. I don't think you need to have perfect recall of the actual pitch; it's more the feel of how the note fits in with the music that comes before and after it.

Constantly learning new etudes/music helps with picking out high notes. My favorites for this are the french etudes, Kahila, and Uber.

I strive for sameness in my approach to range. Play a scale that goes up to a high note and try to get all the notes to feel the same (btw, if they feel the same they will have a more consistent sound). With this approach you wind up starting high notes much more like easy mid range notes.

Practice the sensation of starting a note easily with little fuss such that you can recall the feel of it first thing in the morning. All you have to do is pay attention to how this feels when you are practicing music that is easy for you. Rely on that feel for that first note of Beethoven 5 (or whatever).

If you have a problem with hesitation your desire to not hesitate needs to outweigh your desire to hit the right note. That's the first step.

I won't pretend to have totally solved this problem but as someone who has struggled with this, these strategies have helped.

Macbone1 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 9:02 am

You also need to be in good shape relative to the part you're playing, of course. I studied with Matt Niess who was w/ the Army Blues and always went by a 3x3 rule. You should be able to play the whole concert 3 times, 3 times a day. So wake up, run the set 3 times. Then do that at lunch. Then do it in the evening. That might be excessive, depending on the context infeasible as well. In many circumstances, if you're putting in a sufficient face time, the "cold" part of that goes away. I'm not disagreeing with those who are suggesting to practice the parts cold ,just that in addition to that if you want to be in shape... you have to be in shape.

Thank you but I'm not retired yet and this is not practical for me. I have high respect for Matt Niess but that 3x3 rule is unrealistic because there simply isn't enough time in a day to play a program 9 times! In my military band service we played up to 3 performances a day (max), then that trend faded - quality over quantity. Thank God.

Which is why I said it's infeasible depending on your context! I am certainly not practicing for more than an hour a day with my day job either. I also don't anticipate needing to play principal on Beethoven's 9th anytime soon

Matt K I meant that it was infeasible for anyone - the 9 times through a day thing. I cannot really get in the shape I would like, working full time and all. But it's still better than pounding my chops to insensible Salisbury steak as we sometimes had to do in the service, and in many ways I play better now than I did then. Yes, you posted good general advice here, thanks.

Listen to a few recordings. Run your parts everyday as part of your daily routine. Make it familiar.

I play on a lexan rim to make cold starts easier. (Works better for me than trying to keep a fully-brass mouthpiece warm.)

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:44 am
You also need to be in good shape relative to the part you're playing, of course. I studied with Matt Niess who was w/ the Army Blues and always went by a 3x3 rule. You should be able to play the whole concert 3 times, 3 times a day. So wake up, run the set 3 times. Then do that at lunch. Then do it in the evening. That might be excessive, depending on the context infeasible as well. In many circumstances, if you're putting in a sufficient face time, the "cold" part of that goes away. I'm not disagreeing with those who are suggesting to practice the parts cold ,just that in addition to that if you want to be in shape... you have to be in shape.

Depending on the program, this is even more demanding than Lindberg's 5 year program when he practiced for 24 minutes and took a break, and repeated until he hit 8-9 hours each day.

I do agree with you though, Matt, in that if you're basically "good", the warm up requirement sort of goes away and an easy warm up in the morning will make you "warm" for the whole day. That and being hydrated -- you can't rely on your chops if they are in different states of hydration from day to day.

Half-joking answer: play bass trombone. You rarely have to enter on a soft high note, warm or cold.

More serious answers:

1. Warm up your instrument and mouthpiece with your breath before your entrance. You are also warming up your own breathing.

2. I have seen the advice to do "mouthpiece presses" before a cold entrance; bring your instrument to your face and feel the contact point of the mouthpiece. Press it into your skin a bit to stimulate the circulation in that area. When I saw that piece of advice (from Jeff Reynolds) it made perfect sense, and I realized I was already doing it sort of instinctively.

3. It's already been said, but know the music well enough to hear your first note clearly before you play it. Sometimes this is second nature for me, but sometimes I have to do it very deliberately. A good example is the surprise D in the bass trombone in the 2nd movement of Beethoven 9.


You know, it sometimes seems like orchestral trombonists fall roughly into two camps. One group warms up A LOT before a concert or rehearsal, so that the first notes you play after sitting for a while don't feel so cold. The other group makes it a point to pretty much always do minimal warm-up, so that a cold entrance feels pretty much like any other entrance. It seems to me there's some merit to both approaches, and maybe which one is best for you really depends on you, your physicality with the instrument, and your own comfort level.

To that point, a funny story from just last weekend (or a nightmare, depending on your perspective): we were playing the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony, with the beautiful low melody in the 1st trombone. Well, the 1st trombonist got stuck in the elevator coming down from the 4th floor dressing room, and he was in there for a solid half hour until the fire department got him out just about 5 minutes before the concert. The 2nd trombonist was getting ready to cover the part, of course, before the principal was released. He came out and played great on almost no warm-up at all. As it happens, he's one of those players in the minimal warm-up camp I described above, so he was really not rattled at all. Of course, if he was someone who wants to warm up a lot, he had his trombone with him in the elevator and could very well have gone through his routine...

I like to warm up, but at this point in my career I'm OK if I have to do without it.

Thanks everyone, some excellent advice here.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:32 pm I‘m a fellow community orchestra player with about 25 years experience of playing in community orchestras and other groups. Things that have helped me a lot for the challenge you mention, some of which I should have probably been doing earlier, are:

1) Keep the horn out on a stand somewhere, pick it up and play the exposed entries a few times a day to get familiar with how it feels to play them cold. It really does make a difference and I can‘t believe I didn’t start this years ago!

2) When doing the above, pay special attention to the ‚cold‘ tuning, for me personally I know I have to correct about 10 cents or so for cold, high exposed sections. Tuning slightly off the bumpers gives a bit more room to pull the odd note or two up a bit.

3) Sneak a few free buzzes in the louder tutti section prior to the entry, even better if you pick out some chords in the score where the entry note fits.

4) Something I’m experimenting with and seems promising is rather than trying to reach up to a high note, prepare like you have just played a slightly higher one and are coming down to the target note, probably just a mental thing but it somehow feels more relaxed to feel like you‘re coming down to a note?

5) In the car/office/park or wherever listen to the section before the entry on a recording and then free buzz or mouthpiece buzz the entry along with the recording.

6) Don‘t sweat the small stuff! Clipping a note is not the end of the world, it‘s live music and nobody is expecting a flawless performance. I‘m my own worst enemy about not wanting to stuff it up, partly for me but also not to let down the ensemble, but ultimately I am not relying on a reputation of playing everything perfectly to get gigs, paid or otherwise. I assume the same applies to you.

THIS^^^ is very accurate.

I like all of MrHCinDE's advice.
I'm reminded of some insights from Tyrone Breuninger whom I studied with briefly in the late 1980s. He said each note on the horn "rests" in a slot. Not forced into the middle of the slot, but rests in it. IOW, play the note and "relax it" into its slot, don't pinch it or play the note "at" the horn. Lay the note into its slot on the horn.

If you can grasp the concept and execute it this provides maximum tone quality and projection, helps prevent "chipping and fracking" the note, aids intonation and just feels good. The opposite approach for ex would be evident in players who have their tuning slides so far out they almost fall off. They are not slotting the note right.
Not an orchestral playing reference per se, just a helpful one, I think.

I’ve tried many of the suggestions above at various times. They all work to an extent—it depends on the individual, and how well you practice the skill. Yes, it’s a skill like any other. You might find that one skill works better than another, so try them and then evaluate.

Here’s another skill suggested by an old teacher. I’ve used it in the past for cold entrances where you’ve rested a LONG time, like an entire movement of a symphony:

Perform a full-body isometric about 1 or 2 minutes before an entrance. Breathe in slowly, tense as many muscles as you can for 5 to 10 seconds, then exhale slowly. Tense all the muscles in your core (like you’re trying to take a sh*t), tense the flexors and extensors in your arms and legs, and tense the hands and toes. Try to keep the face muscles still. Repeat as needed.

I think of it as a very brief, full-body yoga position. It gets the blood flowing, increases your blood pressure above the relaxed sitting state, and cues your brain/mind to be prepared for focus and concentration.

Then blowing, buzzing, whatever else you need to prepare the chops and breathing apparatus.

Obviously this tensing of poop muscles is not for overachievers.

Macbone1 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:55 pm Any experienced players out there know any "tricks" to maximize confidence when you have to enter strong on a high B or C after resting for 2 movements, for example?

I recall seeing a performance of Britten's Serenade for Tenor Horn and Strings at the Dallas Symphony several years ago. The horn solo has screaming high notess to pick out of thin air with no cover. It was scary to watch him scrunch his face up and turn completely purple before he let the note out.

But he nailed them! I guess that speaks to the value of knowing exactly what he wants and knowing exactly what he has to do to get it. I don't think a casual player will acquire this, it is something that must be intensely worked on.