TromboneChat

Is anyone familiar with these? I found some very basic info (.504 bore, 7.9" bell) but not much else. Based on the used prices ($500-600) I'm assuming these were student models? Anyone here ever played one?

Hello MBeal,
The 150 was not a student model but the Antoine Courtois response to the Selmer Boléro. It was a common model here in France. I own one 150R (rose brass) it was the trombone my father owns when he studied in Conservatoire de Paris and the same with he won his chair as 1st trombone solo in Opéra de Paris in 1972. He gave me the trombone when I began to play the trombone.
The bell is quite thick and the build quality is very good.

Ah, thanks for that background! Do happen to know approximately what years these were in production?

gmilliere wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:04 pm Hello MBeal,
The 150 was not a student model but the Antoine Courtois response to the Selmer Boléro. It was a common model here in France. I own one 150R (rose brass) it was the trombone my father owns when he studied in Conservatoire de Paris and the same with he won his chair as 1st trombone solo in Opéra de Paris in 1972. He gave me the trombone when I began to play the trombone.
The bell is quite thick and the build quality is very good.

Would be great to learn a bit from you about French trombone styles! I think still today it is distinct from other countries, and not only in terms of equipment?

MBeal wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:31 am Ah, thanks for that background! Do happen to know approximately what years these were in production?

Hi Mbeal,

The AC 150 dates from mid 60’s and was replaced by AC 155 in 1974 under influence of Gérard Pichaureu (Professor at Conservatoire de Paris), Marcel Galiègue (1st trombone solo in Opéra de Paris then in Orchestre de la Société des Conservatoires which is the old name of Orchestre de Paris) and Gilles Millière (1st solo Opéra de Paris)
That was the time when my father became Antoine Courtois Artist.

Before that period, trombone players use principaly small bores.
In 1930, brands like Selmer, Courtois, Couesnon for the principal, built peashooters (we call that 6 35 in reference of old pistol caliber)
After WW2, under influence of Selmer and musicians like the first Quatuor de trombones de Paris (Gabriel Masson, Marcel Galiègue, René Allain & Roger Rouyer) bores & bells become to be most closer of instruments like Kings (imported by SML) or Bachs (imported by Selmer).

Gilles Millière was born in 1952 and began on small baritone, then he played peashooter trombone, then he owned Selmer Boléro, AC 135, AC 150…

The big bore story really began in the mid 70’s with Selmer, Bach, King and of course Courtois which is probably the most popular today.

In 1976, Michel Becquet joined the Courtois Artist team with Gilles. They developped together differents big bore trombones series like the 200, 300 and the great 400. That was the models the new Quatuor de Trombones de Paris (Michel Becquet, Jacques Fourquet, Alain Manfrin and Gilles Millière) used to play.

After 1999 and the end of that mythical Quatuor here in France, Michel and Gilles developped their own models; the 420 MB and the 410 GM. The 410 production stoped before Courtois moves from Amboise (France) to Germany in 2015 by memory.

If I am not completely mistaken, French trombonists didn't use as much bass trombone as other countries for a long time and (still today?) French trombone quartets/ensembles and maybe also orchestral sections were playing tenors only, correct? Did that also apply for bigbands? And how does/did it affect education? I assume that for a long time all trombone students played tenor and bass may have been only a secondary instrument for some? Has that changed? Maybe I am also completely wrong with all of this...

gmilliere wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:04 pm Hello MBeal,
The 150 was not a student model but the Antoine Courtois response to the Selmer Boléro. It was a common model here in France. I own one 150R (rose brass) it was the trombone my father owns when he studied in Conservatoire de Paris and the same with he won his chair as 1st trombone solo in Opéra de Paris in 1972. He gave me the trombone when I began to play the trombone.
The bell is quite thick and the build quality is very good.

Hi Mstarke,

French trombone style is not only due of equipment for sure…

I studied in France and don’t know how trombone is learned elsewhere. Here we use to work a lot of technique, mostly playing games or flexibilities and methods from André Lafosse, Gabriel Masson, Gérard Pichaureu in parallels of Robert Müller or C.Kopprasch.
In old days trombonists didn’t play much other than french repertorie.
There is a lot of Morceaux de Concours or Concertos dedicated to Conservatoire Professors (Henri Couillaud, André Lafosse & Gérard Pichaureau). The most well known are Alexandre Guilmant, Camille Saint-Saëns, Eugène Bozza, Henri Dutilleux, Henri Tomasi, Henri Büsser, Alfred Desenclos, Philippe Gaubert, Jacques Castérède, Guy Roprtz… that every french trombonist has to know.
As it was written for the Old Masters, all is playable on straight tenor trombone.
Most of this repertorie are really fine composition which must be worked with respect for the text like nuances, articulations, rythm, phrasé…
In old days, trombonists work of orchestral excerpts was mostly based on the orchestral solos (Requiem, Boléro, L’enfant et les sortilèges,…).

Influence of recording from the US first must have inspired lot of great players after WW2. Classical musicians like Jean Douay (1st solo Orchestre National), Maurice Delanoix (Orchestre de la Garde Républicaine), Raymond Katarzinski (1st Trombone Opéra de Paris but also commercial, jazz or studio gigs!), Marcel Galiègue (Orchestre de Paris, but also commercial gigs) or Jazz musicians as Benny Vasseur or André Pacquinet began to play with a kind of American style. All of them were students in Conservatoire de Paris.

They also have been inspiration for the next generation like Gilles Millière and probably other members of Quatuor de Trombone de Paris.
Gilles and Michel Becquet worked with Raymond Katarzinski at Opéra de Paris, Jacques Fourquet with Jean Douay at Orchestre National de France… And I know that Alain Manfrin who was 1st trombone solo in Orchestre Philarmonique de Radio France is a big jazz fan (and music in general)

The Quatuor had a big influence on the next generation since Michel was Professor in Conservatoire National Supérieur de Musique de Lyon (1981-2021) and Gilles Professor in Conservatoire National Supérieur de Musique de Paris (1982-2017)
In parallel, in the early 80’s, there is two big changes for French low brass with creation of Conservatoire Supérieur de Musique de Lyon and nomination of Mel Culbertson (Tuba of the Orchestre Philarmonique de Radio France) he was one of the first tuba players to play American style tubas in France, and the dissolution in Paris of the Low Brass Class (Paul Bernard died in 1981). Instead of a LowBrass Class to teach French saxhorn, bass trombone and bass tuba, there is in 1982 two distinct classes for bass trombone (Prof. Guy Destanques who was bass trombonist in Orchestre de Paris) and saxhorn/tuba (Prof. Fernand Lelong, tuba, Orchestre de Paris).

Before the low brass revolution and trombone progressive mutation, trombones and French tuba (C saxhorn with 6valves) (and french orchestras in general) sound was more bright. (Ex. )
Allways with recording influence -mostly American and German- and the evolution of French teaching I don’t think that the French style is very different from others countries today.

Maybe we work our repertorie, but instruments are now the same, recording we hear are the same, conductors works worldwide, french studients musicians learn in other countries, foreign students come in France… For exemple, David Rejano comes from Spain, studied in Paris Conservatoire before he won positions in Barcelona, München and L.A, and many peoples from Europa, Asia, America, Russia are working in French orchestras.

In other days we all knows that many musician like Johannes Rochut moved from Europa to America…

Musical language is universal, and sometimes with a French accent!

G Millière,

Thank you for your wonderful summary of the trombone in France. I learned a lot.

The 1960 "Pictures" video was a revelation. I must watch / listen to it all.
The Orchestre National de la RTF trumpet sound is quite a departure from Bud Herseth's!

Merci!

Yes indeed - fantastic stuff. Thank you!

If you haven't heard Masson before, completely fabulous, obvious edits and all. Released in 1954, further details here. Cover photo looks like he's holding a Selmer Special (there are 20/21/23s - model 22 was a sax - and I'm not sure what the difference is), this predating the Bolero which he helped design.

MStarke wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:09 am If I am not completely mistaken, French trombonists didn't use as much bass trombone as other countries for a long time and (still today?) French trombone quartets/ensembles and maybe also orchestral sections were playing tenors only, correct? Did that also apply for bigbands? And how does/did it affect education? I assume that for a long time all trombone students played tenor and bass may have been only a secondary instrument for some? Has that changed? Maybe I am also completely wrong with all of this...

Mstarke,


Concerning bass trombone, you don’t mistaken saying the use of this instrument is relatively recent here in France.
Considering the orchestra practice, you certainly know that sometime French composers considered that orchestras have 3 tenor trombones players (Berlioz treaty). Nowadays, most of bass positions are occuped by tenor players who switched successfully one or two years before auditions (in some cases saxhorn/euphonium players)
For quartets I think four tenors or 3+1 bass is about 50/50 but the two Quatuors de Trombones de Paris were 4 tenors.
I don’t have enough expertise of big bands but it is most certainly 3+1.

Concerning bass trombone education, the bass Professor in Conservatoire de Paris succeeded Guy Destanques was Claude Chevaillier. He studied in the low brass class with Paul Bernard before begining his parcours as bass trombone in Liège (Belgium) 1968-71, then he was 1st trombone solo in Luxembourg 1971-79 and bass trombone in Opéra de Paris 1979-2006.
After him, Olivier Devaure who was a tenor and a bass student in Conservatoire de Paris won his first chair as 1st trombone solo in Orchestre de la Police Nationale 2000-02 and Orchestre des Concerts Lamoureux then in 2002 became bass trombone solo in Orchestre National and Professor in the Conservatoire.

Most generally I could analyse with my personal pov / experience.
I am primally a tenor who switch for an audition and I was in position of 3rd/bass in Orchestre Symphonique de Mulhouse / Opéra du Rhin between 2009-2019. I am considering myself as a trombone player most of a bass or a tenor player. I am now freelance in Paris and gig as bass trombone mainly, but I work as 2nd or first sometimes, I really enjoy all of these situations and think it is more exciting to play another part, adapt with different people / instruments than keeping the same chair all life long. POV
I love playing my two main instruments and I am a collector of vintage and historical trombones.

I think that what you call French style is really exigent and primally based on the tenor side. French repertoire is something which is most written for soloist than orchestral players… Due of that, french trombonists have more education of competitors than orchestral players and the youngests dream is often to become solo.
As the bass trombone is more on the orchestral side, it is unfortunately not the main objectif, only to win a position, that’s a shame…

Dear Mssr Milliere- Thank you for your amazing treatise on the school of French trombone! I would like to know if you have any information of the timeline of JA Musik and Enrique Crespo and his influence? I have what may be a precursor to the Becquet MBOST model as it is exactly the same but the bell says Challenger II, 420 BO Argent. I’m pretty sure the horn was made at Courtois. Thank you again!

Mssr Milliere,

Thank you for all the wonderful information and stories included here!