TromboneChat

I am creating a post for major symphony trombone sections that play the same brand of trombone:

CURRENTLY
Chicago: Bach
Boston: Edwards
San Francisco: Bach
St. Louis: Edwards
Toronto: Shires

FORMERLY
LA Phil: Conn

I'm sure there are more current & former to add to this list, please contribute if you have info.

I find orchestras that play the same brand to have a more unified sound, although some orchestras with completely different brands blend just fine as well. I find this to be an interesting topic and discussion to be had.

Seattle I believe is most of the time all Shires.

I think the National Symphony plays Edwards.

For a while the Atlanta Symphony played all Shires.

Has Cleveland been playing all Bach?

There was a time (1950s?) that the Cleveland Orchestra played all Kings. This was due to influence from H N. White. I believe the Kings played at that time were not general consumption instruments.

The Cleveland Orchestra definitely played Kings at the behest of George Szell. On a tour visit to Washington, D.C. the Cleveland Orchestra performed at Constitution Hall, the old home of The National Symphony. My old ESM classmate and TUSAB colleague, Dave Fetter was playing in the orchestra at the time. As we stood just inside the stage door chatting, George Szell came through the stage door and Dave said, "Good evening, Maestro"! Szell nodded at Dave, took a few steps and turned on his heel to confront Dave. Szell said, "Mr. Fetter. We ARE playing OUR instrument tonight, are we NOT ?" His keen eye had caught that Dave had installed a Conn counterweight on the back of what I assumed was a 4B King. Dave explained the reason for confusion but Szell insisted on seeing the bell etching that said "KING" ! I'm pretty sure that Szell had chosen the Kings because of their unique sound and nothing more.

Supposedly L.A. on Shires now. I don't know how true that is. The source was reliable.

LA is on Shires, Bach, Shires, Conn.

Technically, Steve Lange in Boston is playing a Getzen (Bousfield model), and Jeff in Toronto has gone back to a Bach bass (I've been told). Also, there are now 2 openings in St. Louis, so that's TBA. Cleveland is Edwards (new 1st), Shires (asst.), Bach (2nd) and Bass TBA.

The problem with this premise is that trombone players are often on the hunt for the next better option (I'm guilty as charged). Interesting to observe the choices, though. I think there were a lot more sections all playing the same make of trombones when Conns and Bachs cornered 90% of the market between the two.

So many choices now. On a related topic, does anyone know if there are still some N. American orchestras that use German trombones for some repertoire? That was the reason that Szell liked the Kings in Cleveland - they sounded more like German instruments to him with the big 9 inch bells on the 5B (or so I was told). Boston, NY, Chicago and San Francisco all had sets of German horns at one point.

Jim Scott

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:39 pm Supposedly L.A. on Shires now. I don't know how true that is. The source was reliable.

Their ass't principal definitely plays Bach

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:30 pm Technically, Steve Lange in Boston is playing a Getzen (Bousfield model), and Jeff in Toronto has gone back to a Bach bass (I've been told). Also, there are now 2 openings in St. Louis, so that's TBA. Cleveland is Edwards (new 1st), Shires (asst.), Bach (2nd) and Bass TBA.

The problem with this premise is that trombone players are often on the hunt for the next better option (I'm guilty as charged). Interesting to observe the choices, though. I think there were a lot more sections all playing the same make of trombones when Conns and Bachs cornered 90% of the market between the two.

So many choices now. On a related topic, does anyone know if there are still some N. American orchestras that use German trombones for some repertoire? That was the reason that Szell liked the Kings in Cleveland - they sounded more like German instruments to him with the big 9 inch bells on the 5B (or so I was told). Boston, NY, Chicago and San Francisco all had sets of German horns at one point.

Jim Scott

Chicago Symphony use old german trombones on occasion - ATB

Like Jim Scott said, it was more common when Conn and Bach cornered the market in the mid 20th century. Prior to that, Holton was used in a few orchestras, along with German and French makers.

The “same maker vs. different makers” topic has been discussed a few times here on TC and previously on TF. I think the topic is interesting because (I believe) many assume that people playing the same brand, or a custom instrument from the same maker, will make a similar sound and thus make it easier to blend, match sounds, etc. Whether that thinking is what drives professionals to play instruments from the same brand is a different question.

The outlier that springs to mind is Chicago, where they used mainly Conns during Reiner’s tenure, then a mix of makers for quite some time: Friedman on Bach, then Holton, now Bach; Crisafulli on Holton; Kleinhammer on Bach and then a Bach Williams combination. Now they use Bach horns with various modifications, and sometimes use German-style instruments. LA with Peebles, Sauer, Williams and Reynolds also played a mix of instruments at one time.

What about big bands/jazz bands? Concert bands? Brass bands? (I believe it’s the norm in brass bands in the UK.)

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:30 pm Technically, Steve Lange in Boston is playing a Getzen (Bousfield model)

Steve is actually on the Getzen 4047DS, not the Bousfield model.

MnOrch is all Bach.

Interestingly, under "Formerly", prior to LA being all Conn, was all Bach. And prior to that, was surely all Conn.

JoeAumann wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:43 pm

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:30 pm Technically, Steve Lange in Boston is playing a Getzen (Bousfield model)

Steve is actually on the Getzen 4047DS, not the Bousfield model.

Thanks! I stand corrected!

JS

JoeAumann wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:49 pm MnOrch is all Bach.

Interestingly, under "Formerly", prior to LA being all Conn, was all Bach. And prior to that, was surely all Conn.

I remember Jeff Reynolds playing a Getzen for a while. I think the modern version is the 1062D. There was an ad published in a couple of magazines showing Reynolds in fatigues, camouflage, and holding a Getzen bass. I think the slogan was something like “down in the trenches.” I don’t know where it fits in the LA Phil trombone section chronology…

Perhaps Noah (slipmo) knows…

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:43 pm

JoeAumann wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:49 pm MnOrch is all Bach.

Interestingly, under "Formerly", prior to LA being all Conn, was all Bach. And prior to that, was surely all Conn.

I remember Jeff Reynolds playing a Getzen for a while. I think the modern version is the 1062D. There was an ad published in a couple of magazines showing Reynolds in fatigues, camouflage, and holding a Getzen bass. I think the slogan was something like “down in the trenches.” I don’t know where it fits in the LA Phil trombone section chronology…

Perhaps Noah (slipmo) knows…

Jeff used that Getzen until the whole section switched to Conn. Jeff said he pulled the Getzen out for a lesson with one of his student and was getting an fuzz tone like from an air leak. He went to check his spit valve and the whole slide crook came off.

My understanding is that he used an Edwards slide (single bore?) with the 1062 bell section.

The story I recall was that he tried the 1062 at NAMM and insisted on acquiring it then and there.

I don’t think the entire trombone section at the San Francisco Symphony plays Bach.

bcschipper wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:02 am I don’t think the entire trombone section at the San Francisco Symphony plays Bach.

John played a Shires for a long time before he retired. The current sub does play a Greenhoe Bach 50, though

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 1:43 pm My understanding is that he used an Edwards slide (single bore?) with the 1062 bell section.

The story I recall was that he tried the 1062 at NAMM and insisted on acquiring it then and there.

I heard this from Jim Patterson (horn-maker and master repairman). I studied with Jeff briefly when I was in college.

For years, Jeff played an ancient Conn Fuchs bass that he had a slot-in valve made for. He did a bunch of damage to the horn when he had an auto accident while following an abandoned train rail bed. Jim Patterson did the repairs for him, which included a bunch of bell work. Apparently it never played the same (which wouldn't be surprising given the amount of damage done).

When he played the 1062 at NAMM in Anaheim, he is supposed to have told the district rep, "I'll take this one." The rep told Jeff that was his show instrument and you can't have it.

Jeff apparently replied something along the lines of, no, you don't understand. I'm the bass trombonist in the LA Phil, and I have a concert tonight and I'm going to be playing that horn.

Dennis:That is exactly the story I heard, along with the conclusion that Jeff did, in fact, play the Getzen that evening.

bcschipper wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:02 am I don’t think the entire trombone section at the San Francisco Symphony plays Bach.

The current section is 100% playing Bach trombones.

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:29 pm

bcschipper wrote: ↑Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:02 am I don’t think the entire trombone section at the San Francisco Symphony plays Bach.

The current section is 100% playing Bach trombones.

For a brief time, just before and for a while after Tim Higgins was appointed principal, John Engelkes played a Greenhoe-Conn dependent bass with TIS. He was playing it when I heard them in Seattle, and they gave a sectional clinic on a Saturday afternoon. When I asked him about it, he said it was, “The best horn I’ve ever played.”

Tim Higgins was still playing his Friedman-style Bach at the time— .562 nickel slide, Thayer valve, gold star Bach bell. Mark Lawrence was also there playing asst. principal. I don’t remember if he was playing a Shires or an Edwards at that time.

Is Higgins back to a 547 slide? It seems like it. I do know he's got a brassark leadpipe in there as well

Tim is playing a Sawday 42 with a cut bell. No Friedman stuff.

For instance, Nick Platoff played a Greenhoe when I met him shortly before Covid. I was impressed by his versatile sound. I thought that John Engelkes played a Shires before retirement because it had some ornaments on the bell but perhaps I am mistaken. I do not really look that closely at American trombones but I am sure it was not a Bach.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:15 am
What about big bands/jazz bands?

I've never heard of it in the (professional) jazz world. For one thing, big bands (with a very few exceptions) are not full-time gigs, and subbing is quite common even in bands that work regularly . For another, jazz players pride themselves on individuality and would generally bristle at being told what horn to play. And the individual sounds of the players are what gives a band its unique personality. The Ellington section of Lawrence Brown, Tricky Sam Nanton, and Juan Tizol, for example - three very different players, but a wonderful section sound.

In fact, there are big band recordings where one player overdubs all the parts, and I always find they sound TOO homogenous and unnatural. When I have to overdub multiple parts, I often bring two different horns to try to vary the sound from part to part.

(I have heard of some college big bands requiring a specific horn, back in the day, but no cases in my own personal experience.)

In the 1940a the Glenn Miller band played all Bach trombones (6? 12? Can't remember).

Big Bands of the 1930s and 1940s could demand single brand instruments, although not all did.

There was an anecdote related by Doug Yeo in his History of the BSO Trombone section where a guest conductor of the BSO remarked on how blended the sound of the trombone section was and they must have played the same brand. Well Raichman was on 1st with a Bach 36, Hansotte was on 2nd with a Conn 88H, and Coffey was on bass with a Reynolds. So much for same brand.

There is an aspect within reasonable limitations that start sounding the the same way they always sound regardless of the brand on the horn.

It is pure hearsay for me but the legend is that Glenn Miller demanded Bach 6 trombones. I think there is an advertisement somewhere that says Jimmy Dorsey’s trombones played all Bach, perhaps out of spite for his brother. There is a weird story about some female singer Benny Goodman sidelined on stage and would not let her sing until her contract expired. We should not let our current experience corrupt the reality of how it was in the height of the big band era. There were full time gigs. John Hammond interfered with Count Basie’s personnel choices and attempted to with Duke Ellington, whose players were doing head charts or picking a line. Ellington told Hammond to take a hike.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:01 pm In the 1940a the Glenn Miller band played all Bach trombones (6? 12? Can't remember).

Big Bands of the 1930s and 1940s could demand single brand instruments, although not all did.

Right - I was thinking more of the current scene.

There may well have been a sponsorship deal in play in those cases, too - "Glen MIller's trombone section plays Bach trombones" would have been gold from an advertising perspective (for Bach, I mean). For a bandleader, the choice of horn could have hinged as much on who was willing to shell out the money as on musical considerations.

I forget who, but I remember hearing of a player in the 80's or 90's who publicly endorsed a certain brand but would secretly go back to his old horn when nobody was looking.

From a musical perspective, it makes more sense for a smooth, commercial band like MIller's to try to unify the section sound, as opposed to a more jazz-oriented group like Basie, Ellington, or the like. (Not to say they weren't aiming for commercial success too, just in their own way.)

OneTon wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:07 pm There is an aspect within reasonable limitations that start sounding the the same way they always sound regardless of the brand on the horn.

That's been my experience. I find I sound more or less like myself on any horn I play - even valve trombone.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:01 pm In the 1940a the Glenn Miller band played all Bach trombones (6? 12? Can't remember).

Big Bands of the 1930s and 1940s could demand single brand instruments, although not all did.

There was an anecdote related by Doug Yeo in his History of the BSO Trombone section where a guest conductor of the BSO remarked on how blended the sound of the trombone section was and they must have played the same brand. Well Raichman was on 1st with a Bach 36, Hansotte was on 2nd with a Conn 88H, and Coffey was on bass with a Reynolds. So much for same brand.

The anecdote was about "his" section - Ron Barron - Edwards, Norm Bolter -Shires, Doug Yeo - Yamaha. It was in an interview with Doug, which I believe was in the ITA Journal.

JS

rickfaulknernyc wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:04 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:01 pm In the 1940a the Glenn Miller band played all Bach trombones (6? 12? Can't remember).

Big Bands of the 1930s and 1940s could demand single brand instruments, although not all did.

Right - I was thinking more of the current scene.

There may well have been a sponsorship deal in play in those cases, too - "Glen MIller's trombone section plays Bach trombones" would have been gold from an advertising perspective (for Bach, I mean). For a bandleader, the choice of horn could have hinged as much on who was willing to shell out the money as on musical considerations.

I forget who, but I remember hearing of a player in the 80's or 90's who publicly endorsed a certain brand but would secretly go back to his old horn when nobody was looking.

From a musical perspective, it makes more sense for a smooth, commercial band like MIller's to try to unify the section sound, as opposed to a more jazz-oriented group like Basie, Ellington, or the like. (Not to say they weren't aiming for commercial success too, just in their own way.)

I bought a mute on eBay (an old metal "hat"). The seller was thrilled to find out I was a professional trombone player, and sent me some additional info. Her Uncle was a member of the Glen Miller trombone section - she sent included an old post card sized ad along with the mute, that showed the section with the caption, - the "Glen Miller trombone section plays Bach trombones". Kind of cool to have the extra momento, and to own a small piece of history. The horns in the picture had small bells that makes me suspect they were model 6's.

Jim Scott

There is a modern big band (I want to say Dave Holland Big Band but don't quote me on that) that, at one time, the section was playing Bach 42s. If it's the band I'm thinking of, those players are now on a mix of medium and large horns by Shries and Yamaha in their own work so I don't know if that's still the case.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:15 am
What about big bands/jazz bands? Concert bands? Brass bands? (I believe it’s the norm in brass bands in the UK.)

The current Count Basie Big Band play all Rath.

Also there is a trend in British Brass Bands to have all Rath too..... Black Dyke and Cory bands for example.

I believe at one time the Stan Kenton Orchestra all played Conn.

mbarbier wrote: ↑Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:34 pm There is a modern big band (I want to say Dave Holland Big Band but don't quote me on that) that, at one time, the section was playing Bach 42s. If it's the band I'm thinking of, those players are now on a mix of medium and large horns by Shries and Yamaha in their own work so I don't know if that's still the case.

Interesting. Seems like that would have been a very dark, woofy sound, but maybe the arrangements were designed to exploit that. I remember reading a DownBeat article back in the 80's where the interviewee referred to college bands using all large-bore horns: "sounds like a squadron of baritone horns."

rickfaulknernyc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:46 am

Interesting. Seems like that would have been a very dark, woofy sound, but maybe the arrangements were designed to exploit that.

Played well, 42s will sound great, if a little wide for that setting. Not the case with the average college student, of course.

I saw the Dave Holland Big Band a few years ago, and the section was Robin Eubanks and Jonathan Arons on .547 Yamahas and Josh Roseman on a .547 Shires. All 3 are fabulous players with plenty of clarity and color to the sounds. And indeed, the charts are orchestrated for those sounds.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:32 am I saw the Dave Holland Big Band a few years ago, and the section was Robin Eubanks and Jonathan Arons on .547 Yamahas and Josh Roseman on a .547 Shires. All 3 are fabulous players with plenty of clarity and color to the sounds. And indeed, the charts are orchestrated for those sounds.

I thought I was remembering right that it was Dave Holland's band. Glad I did! It's a great sound and band.

There was a period where the Woody Herman section was all young guys recently graduated from Eastman, who all played Conns (2 88H's and a 62H). Jim Pugh was the lead player/soloist. I heard them live with that section and I'm pretty sure I have a couple of old LP's with that combination. They sounded great. Since I played the same instrument, it resonated with me. A couple of years later, I went to hear the band in a NYC club, and had a chat with Pugh during a break. The section was different (except him) and he was playing a King 3B at that point. He told me that he missed some things about the 88H, but it was to tough to play the big horn night after night, especially on the road. The King was a more natural fit for what he was doing.

Jim Scott

It is pure hearsay for me but the legend is that Glenn Miller demanded Bach 6 trombones. I think there is an advertisement somewhere that says Jimmy Dorsey’s trombones played all Bach, perhaps out of spite for his brother.

More historical info: When Tommy Dorsey had his TV show, the whole section played on Holton 65s. Tommy kept his King and I assume the sponsorship. Can't make this stuff up.
More recently, the Boston Symphony section playing on Edwards was a real slap in the face to Shires, literally just up the road. What a contract to lose out on. I went to a clinic once where the BSO section demonstrated their "all German" arsenal, for period music. Can't recall the brand, possibly Thein or Voigt. I'm pretty sure those were symphony-owned.

Macbone1 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:43 am More recently, the Boston Symphony section playing on Edwards was a real slap in the face to Shires, literally just up the road. What a contract to lose out on. I went to a clinic once where the BSO section demonstrated their "all German" arsenal, for period music. Can't recall the brand, possibly Thein or Voigt. I'm pretty sure those were symphony-owned.

Well...none of the current BSO section played Shires coming in. Toby and Steve were both playing Greenhoe Bachs when they auditioned and at the starts of their tenures. Jim has only played Edwards basses to my knowledge. Toby and Steve have both visited Shires and tried things, but Bach and now Edwards are better fits for their playing.

The BSO owns (or at least owned) a set of vintage Kruspe trombones. The purchase was arranged by Doug Yeo before he left. I've played on the bass - it's lovely and not difficult to play. I'm told the alto is very nice. The tenors are tricky for a modern player to get used to. Toby's primary alto is a Thein, and maybe Jim has a Thein bass as well? Last I knew, Steve had a Thein bell set up to put on an Edwards chassis, to get into that sound world without a big adjustment for him.

Interesting....l still find it tough to believe Shires couldn't make something that would work for them. In the clinic all the German instruments were "matched", so probably were Kruspe.

Macbone1 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:19 am Interesting....l still find it tough to believe Shires couldn't make something that would work for them. In the clinic all the German instruments were "matched", so probably were Kruspe.

I find it tougher that you give the player no agency in your notes… maybe they’ve just worked with the other guys (and horns!!) for years and want to keep those relationships.

Phrased another way, what is their incentive to change and drop the one that got them there?

Cheers,
Andy

Valid points, Andy. I guess l just keep thinking what a snub that was to Shires.

Now I want an Edwards.

2bobone wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:57 pm The Cleveland Orchestra definitely played Kings at the behest of George Szell. On a tour visit to Washington, D.C. the Cleveland Orchestra performed at Constitution Hall, the old home of The National Symphony. My old ESM classmate and TUSAB colleague, Dave Fetter was playing in the orchestra at the time. As we stood just inside the stage door chatting, George Szell came through the stage door and Dave said, "Good evening, Maestro"! Szell nodded at Dave, took a few steps and turned on his heel to confront Dave. Szell said, "Mr. Fetter. We ARE playing OUR instrument tonight, are we NOT ?" His keen eye had caught that Dave had installed a Conn counterweight on the back of what I assumed was a 4B King. Dave explained the reason for confusion but Szell insisted on seeing the bell etching that said "KING" ! I'm pretty sure that Szell had chosen the Kings because of their unique sound and nothing more.

After the Kings they moved onto Benge, which was pretty much the same (and same company). They were working on a new one for the section with UMI around the time DeSano retired that sadly never came to fruition that were kinda a Benge/Conn frankenbone. It's a shame that it never fully made it out of prototype- they're really great horns. Rick was (is?) still using on on occasion at Blossom.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:18 am

Macbone1 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:43 am More recently, the Boston Symphony section playing on Edwards was a real slap in the face to Shires, literally just up the road. What a contract to lose out on. I went to a clinic once where the BSO section demonstrated their "all German" arsenal, for period music. Can't recall the brand, possibly Thein or Voigt. I'm pretty sure those were symphony-owned.

Toby and Steve have both visited Shires and tried things, but Bach and now Edwards are better fits for their playing.

That is a let down for shires indeed. Although we all understand the importance of choosing instruments that work best for us.

I don't know if was mentioned here but you can see Glenn Miller's horn at the National Museum of the Unites States Air Force located at Wright Patterson AFB, Fairborn, Ohio (almost a suburb of Dayton, OH).

octavposaune wrote: ↑Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:50 pm Seattle I believe is most of the time all Shires.

Correct (as of two weeks ago)