TromboneChat

I recently borrowed a standard modern bach 50 leadpipe to put in my Edwards B454 and have fallen in love with it. My first thought is to buy a bach 50 leadpipe and have a tech put collar on it with edwards threads. From everything I've heard and experienced about bach trombones is they are pretty inconsistent. Do you guys have any ideas if this extends to leadpipes as well? I'd rather avoid having one made if the one I'm borrowing just happens to be magic.

I have an amazing modern pipe as well, I have an instrument innovations ring on it.

They're not all quite as amazing for sure, but they seem to be doing something right.

All leadpipes, any maker vary. Good makers vary a little, others vary a lot.

My experience is that the Bach leadpipes vary quite a bit. However, I have dealt more with the 36 and 42 leadpipes than the 50. I own three Bach 50 pipes that I pulled from horns and they are all rather good….just slightly different.

The pipe I use most often is my BrassArk NY50 in seamed yellow brass. It is very different from my three stock 50 pipes.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:16 am

The pipe I use most often is my BrassArk NY50 in seamed yellow brass. It is very different from my three stock 50 pipes.

Fwiw, the pipe I replaced with this modern 50 pipe was a Brassark NY50. The Bach was better in every way.

blast wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:33 am All leadpipes, any maker vary. Good makers vary a little, others vary a lot.

THIS EXACTLY!!!!

I've been lucky that amost all of my stock Bach pipes work great.

Burgerbob wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:07 am

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:16 am

The pipe I use most often is my BrassArk NY50 in seamed yellow brass. It is very different from my three stock 50 pipes.

Fwiw, the pipe I replaced with this modern 50 pipe was a Brassark NY50. The Bach was better in every way.

That's great! But, we must remember that leadpipes are about as personal to a player as mouthpieces. If we were to have 8 different players try 8 different Bach 50 leadpipes, it would not surprise me if each player chose a different pipe and all 8 pipes were a "favorite" for a player. That's just how leadpipes are.

I think the most important information for our OP is that one cannot expect every Bach leadpipe to be identical. Buying a stock Bach 50 leadpipe might put the OP in the same zone as the leadpipe that was borrowed, but there are no guarantees that it will be identical. In my opinion, buying a standard 50 pipe is definitely a risk worth taking.

Specialk3700 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:03 pm I recently borrowed a standard modern bach 50 leadpipe to put in my Edwards B454 and have fallen in love with it...

Offer the guy $75 for it.

I have to say after the Bach strike, the guys that made and installed the leadpipes left the company. That knowledge was not passed onto the next generation. I really wanted to like them as they are pretty and seem to be well made but I couldn’t find a horn that could focus.

timbone wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:29 pm I have to say after the Bach strike, the guys that made and installed the leadpipes left the company. That knowledge was not passed onto the next generation. I really wanted to like them as they are pretty and seem to be well made but I couldn’t find a horn that could focus.

Question; do you know this exactly or is this conjecture based on how you feel the horns play? That is, do you know that guys A, B, and C, used to do this and they left?

Cheers,
Andy

timbone wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:29 pm I have to say after the Bach strike, the guys that made and installed the leadpipes left the company. That knowledge was not passed onto the next generation. I really wanted to like them as they are pretty and seem to be well made but I couldn’t find a horn that could focus.

This is an entirely baseless, speculative, defamatory comment. Made by someone who works for a competitor manufacturer.
Not cool.

Dear Matthew. I owned bach horns for over 24 years. I got the us navy to buy sets of bach’s for the fleet- 16,36,42,and 50’s. They replaced the aging king inventory back in ‘79 on my word. I sold my trusty 16M to help pay for the 62H I bought from jeff reynolds. I have six Conn tis horns and many others. Go back again before the strike and start again. So, you guys are making good horns, jeff dee sounds great. I’m happy to discuss trombones. not everything is what you think it is.

timbone wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:03 pm Dear Matthew. I owned bach horns for over 24 years. I got the us navy to buy sets of bach’s for the fleet- 16,36,42,and 50’s. They replaced the aging king inventory back in ‘79 on my word. I sold my trusty 16M to help pay for the 62H I bought from jeff reynolds. I have six Conn tis horns and many others. Go back again before the strike and start again. So, you guys are making good horns, jeff dee sounds great. I’m happy to discuss trombones. not everything is what you think it is.

So you don't actually know that this operation actually changed?

I've been to the factory twice since the strike. Each time I stepped away at every chance I could to ask about things like this. I don't believe that I was able to ask specifically on leadpipe drawing, but EVERY OTHER OPERATION was staffed by people that did the same job from before the strike. Now, true, there was a known tour and I wasn't THAT far away from my tour guides (Phil and Ted's son)... these might not have been a random set of people for me to interact with.

Anyway, my 2018 Standard Bach 50 pipe I put a ring on is just fine on my slides with removable pipes. It is different than my two '70s pipes; the mouthpiece seats about 1/8" deeper in those and they blow like it. Not sure if it is any different than the '52 one I have; that slide is different enough that it isn't the only variable (slide is a lot heavier).

Cheers,
Andy

timbone wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:03 pm Dear Matthew. I owned bach horns for over 24 years. I got the us navy to buy sets of bach’s for the fleet- 16,36,42,and 50’s. They replaced the aging king inventory back in ‘79 on my word. I sold my trusty 16M to help pay for the 62H I bought from jeff reynolds. I have six Conn tis horns and many others. Go back again before the strike and start again. So, you guys are making good horns, jeff dee sounds great. I’m happy to discuss trombones. not everything is what you think it is.

Tim.
This reply proves nothing, other than showing you have bought and sold many trombones in your time. You aren't unique in the regard.

Your original comment made claims about the employees at Bach that were speculative and baseless. Unless you worked there, you could not know specifically that the people who fabricated and mounted leadpipes (they would not be the same people, btw) changed, and that "knowledge was not passed down". What proof do you have of that?

And yet we have people on this thread saying they have new Bach pipes that they love.

I stand by my comment. You were trying to diminish another manufacturer, by making statements that were hyperbolic. Statements that may be read by others and taken as truth, because "it was on the internet".

Not cool.

matthew- sorry. playing the horns tells everything. I know what it is supposed to feel like and sound like- maybe you don’t?

timbone wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 9:48 pm matthew- sorry. playing the horns tells everything. I know what it is supposed to feel like and sound like- maybe you don’t?

So, you don't know and choose to take a swipe at another manufacturer, one that actually has some pretty darned impressive playing credentials. Huh.

Playing the horns does not tell you that "the guys that made and installed the leadpipes left the company. That knowledge was not passed onto the next generation." It tells you that you don't like what they are making now.

Most of the people in instrument factories do NOT play the horns they are making. Their feedback on what they are doing is a combination of 2nd hand from play testers, gauging from tools, and some feel. Not exactly the most direct and immediate feedback, if any.

Again, from my experience at the plant in question, the personnel doing all the work were there both before and after the strike. If there was a specific change, I would be intrigued to learn about it.

Cheers,
Andy

Perhaps no one at the Courtois factory has ever left their job, and Courtois personnel and trombones are exactly what they were 20 years ago. I'm impressed by their continuity.

You should be impressed. No other manufacture goes back before their official start at 1803- and they started in the late 1700’s making bugles for Napoleons army.

I want to add that Bach lead pipes are very reasonably priced, so unless you get one that happens to be subpar, they are a good value for the money. If find that a standard Bach 50 pipe is good one to try one most bass trombones when you need one that doesn't cost too much and is easy to source.

This forum has tread this road previously with a similar lack of dignity and respect. Though attributing alleged or perceived quality degradation to personnel changes may not meet rigorous root cause analysis, someone with experience in procurement and as a player is entitled to their opinion. A play test is arguably less subjective than a strolling factory tour, making informal inquiries of random workers, and observing random parts in bins. Though it might be more transparent to disclose current or previous employment and/or ownership, to imply that a statement based on play tests is inherently biased or a hyperbolic exaggeration lacks foundation. Could we let specious arguments and accusations remain in the Trombone Forum, and in the past?

modelerdc wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:37 am I want to add that Bach lead pipes are very reasonably priced, so unless you get one that happens to be subpar, they are a good value for the money. If find that a standard Bach 50 pipe is good one to try one most bass trombones when you need one that doesn't cost too much and is easy to source.

< $50 at Hickey’s last time I looked.