TromboneChat

I recently bought a Conn 79h with an Edwards leadpipe and I really love how the horn plays. The original leadpipe and edwards pipe is press fit.

If I find a leadpipe I like is there any reason not to get it soldered in? The press fit is becoming more and more annoying as I keep playing the horn.

Solder it in. I did the same thing to my 3B when I got my Brassark 32H leadpipe.

Have someone who does it right. Too much solder will flow down the pipe and deaden the vibrations. Very little solder is needed.

It’s a lot easier to clean the pipe if it isn’t soldered in. If you don’t do regular maintenance on it then it doesn’t make any difference though. I prefer to have threads added which keeps the pipe attached so it isn’t annoying but still removable but it costs more than soldering it in. Another inexpensive middle ground is to have your tech solder a ring to the top of it that is close to the ID of the top of the inner slide. The ring gives you something to grab so it still can come out but you have to give it a good yank with the material below it because of the extra friction it being the same size as the ID.

Unless you know you're going to keep the horn forever, which you don't, I'd stick an Instrument Innovations bi-thread nut on the slide and threaded rings on the pipes. (Possibly cutting a little off the existing receiver first if that's an option, to keep the length more-or-less consistent.) The parts are cheap, it's really not much work, and at least you're in a city with good techs.

I've never had an issue cleaning my lead pipes that are soldered into an instrument. If you LOVE the way the horn plays as you state solder it in. If you are the kind that likes to tinker, and most people are, then just keep trying pipe after pipe until you return to the one that you originally loved.

Just running a snake brush through the tube cleans the leadpipe, soldered or not. I wouldn't take out a screw in leadpipe to do this.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:31 am Just running a snake brush through the tube cleans the leadpipe, soldered or not. I wouldn't take out a screw in leadpipe to do this.

Agreed.

A super cheap fix if your press-fit leadpipe is too loose is to wrap some plumbers/teflon tape (it’s non-adhesive) around the top of the leadpipe to get a tighter fit. I’d try that first before taking it to a tech.

I personally wouldn’t bother soldering in a leadpipe, even if you find one you really like. If the slide ever became damaged and needed to be re-tubed, or the leadipe became damaged, the tech would need to pull it. Over time soldered pipes can become corroded in, especially if any gunk builds up between the pipe and the inner slide tube, so you may find yourself with a larger repair bill and needing to replace both the leadpipe and inner slide tube.

I asked Partch in Toronto to pull the leadpipe on a Benge 290. He reported back that a previous owner had already done that and then soldered in a replacement pipe using so much solder he didn’t think he could get it out without damaging the slide.

christianjgilbert wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:34 am A super cheap fix if your press-fit leadpipe is too loose is to wrap some plumbers/teflon tape (it’s non-adhesive) around the top of the leadpipe to get a tighter fit. I’d try that first before taking it to a tech.

I personally wouldn’t bother soldering in a leadpipe, even if you find one you really like. If the slide ever became damaged and needed to be re-tubed, or the leadipe became damaged, the tech would need to pull it. Over time soldered pipes can become corroded in, especially if any gunk builds up between the pipe and the inner slide tube, so you may find yourself with a larger repair bill and needing to replace both the leadpipe and inner slide tube.

Good alternative!

christianjgilbert wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:34 am A super cheap fix if your press-fit leadpipe is too loose is to wrap some plumbers/teflon tape (it’s non-adhesive) around the top of the leadpipe to get a tighter fit. I’d try that first before taking it to a tech.

I have plumbers tape on there now and it’s obviously not enough. I feel like I keep having to add more as time goes on. I’d rather just eliminate the frustration.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:30 am Unless you know you're going to keep the horn forever, which you don't, I'd stick an Instrument Innovations bi-thread nut on the slide and threaded rings on the pipes. (Possibly cutting a little off the existing receiver first if that's an option, to keep the length more-or-less consistent.) The parts are cheap, it's really not much work, and at least you're in a city with good techs.

This was my other option but didn’t know how easy it would be. Sounds like I have to contact a tech.

I just had it done to a King 3B slide. IIRC all-in I was in the ballpark of $200. I personally think it was worth it. Snaking does clean out the inside of the pipe but it doesn't clean the outside of the pipe or the interior of the inner slide. Obviously, it isn't imperative that you do this since most horns do not have a removable pipe, but if you're a germaphobe like me its nice

Threaded is the best, but expensive.
Soldering is also expensive, and removes your option to change pipes.
Plumber's tape is a PITA.
For a 'semi-permanent" solution, you can use aluminum tape around the top of the leadpipe.
Cheap, removable, and with the right number of wraps, very tight friction fit.
This stuff at Home Depot:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Nashua-Tape ... 030120-_-N

Also, a little wax or lube on the mouthpiece shank will discourage it from grabbing the leadpipe.

by WGWTR180 » Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:43 am

I've never had an issue cleaning my lead pipes that are soldered into an instrument. If you LOVE the way the horn plays as you state solder it in. If you are the kind that likes to tinker, and most people are, then just keep trying pipe after pipe until you return to the one that you originally loved.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:09 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:31 am Just running a snake brush through the tube cleans the leadpipe, soldered or not. I wouldn't take out a screw in leadpipe to do this.

Agreed.

I think both of you are missing a very important point. You can look through your inner slide tube and see a mirror finish on the inside of the tube and the leadpipe, but that does not mean that everything is clean and spotless. Most of the corrosion on a leadpipe occurs between the leadpipe and the inner slide.....the part you DO NOT see when you look through your inner slide. This is the huge advantage of having a removable leadpipe system. It is my advice to take the leadpipe out regularly to clean the inside AND OUTSIDE of the leadpipe, along with the inside of the slide.

For this reason, I always recommend choosing a removable leadpipe system. If you remove the leadpipe and clean it regularly, it will last 100+ years with no corrosion. If you solder that leadpipe in there, you are guaranteed that some degree of corrosion will start to happen within a few months. It's unavoidable because there is no solder seal down at the bottom of the leadpipe.....all the soldering is done up on the mouthpiece receiver end. Essentially, the bottom of a soldered leadpipe is a dependable moisture and corrosion collector.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:07 pm by WGWTR180 » Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:43 am

I've never had an issue cleaning my lead pipes that are soldered into an instrument. If you LOVE the way the horn plays as you state solder it in. If you are the kind that likes to tinker, and most people are, then just keep trying pipe after pipe until you return to the one that you originally loved.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:09 am
Agreed.

I think both of you are missing a very important point. You can look through your inner slide tube and see a mirror finish on the inside of the tube and the leadpipe, but that does not mean that everything is clean and spotless. Most of the corrosion on a leadpipe occurs between the leadpipe and the inner slide.....the part you DO NOT see when you look through your inner slide. This is the huge advantage of having a removable leadpipe system. It is my advice to take the leadpipe out regularly to clean the inside AND OUTSIDE of the leadpipe, along with the inside of the slide.

For this reason, I always recommend choosing a removable leadpipe system. If you remove the leadpipe and clean it regularly, it will last 100+ years with no corrosion. If you solder that leadpipe in there, you are guaranteed that some degree of corrosion will start to happen within a few months. It's unavoidable because there is no solder seal down at the bottom of the leadpipe.....all the soldering is done up on the mouthpiece receiver end. Essentially, the bottom of a soldered leadpipe is a dependable moisture and corrosion collector.

Okay Brian. Well here's what I'm not missing. My Elkhart 88H has a soldered in pipe and I've been cleaning it the same way since 8th grade. No issues whatsoever. Another one of my instruments from 1967 has a soldered in pipe, also with no issues. Granted, maybe, if I decided to pull the pipe there might be some issues getting it out but having never been pulled and by always cleaning it the way I've been doing I'm good to go. So I disagree that there's a HUGE advantage to having a removable pipe.

We can agree to disagree. I think we are approaching this from different perspectives. You have some instruments with soldered leadpipes that have held up well over time. I can understand if you would say, "there's no problem here, what's the issue?"

I view this topic from a technician's perspective.....I have seen the corrosion that accumulates around those leadpipes and wish to avoid that happening on my instruments. People have brought me trombones that were only 3 or 4 months old and asked me to remove the leadpipe. Sometimes those almost-new trombones already have corrosion in that area of the horn.

If you have an Elkhart Conn with the original leadpipe, I absolutely DO NOT recommend that you attempt to remove the leadpipe. I estimate that the success rate of removing that leadpipe would only be 40-50%. The problem with removing leadpipes on older instruments is that the corrosion between the outside of the leadpipe and the inner slide can sometimes be a stronger bond than the solder itself. Thus, the leadpipe sometimes will not move. The other problem is that the leadpipe could be weakened by the corrosion and might break apart. Again, the corrosion is there.....you just don't see it when you look inside the inner slide tube.

We simply have different preferences. You like the convenience, consistency and solid feel of that soldered leadpipe. I sleep better at night when I know that my trombones are corrosion-free from mouthpiece to bell.

Or you could have your fave threaded and have the best of both worlds.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:47 am We can agree to disagree. I think we are approaching this from different perspectives. You have some instruments with soldered leadpipes that have held up well over time. I can understand if you would say, "there's no problem here, what's the issue?"

I view this topic from a technician's perspective.....I have seen the corrosion that accumulates around those leadpipes and wish to avoid that happening on my instruments. People have brought me trombones that were only 3 or 4 months old and asked me to remove the leadpipe. Sometimes those almost-new trombones already have corrosion in that area of the horn.

If you have an Elkhart Conn with the original leadpipe, I absolutely DO NOT recommend that you attempt to remove the leadpipe. I estimate that the success rate of removing that leadpipe would only be 40-50%. The problem with removing leadpipes on older instruments is that the corrosion between the outside of the leadpipe and the inner slide can sometimes be a stronger bond than the solder itself. Thus, the leadpipe sometimes will not move. The other problem is that the leadpipe could be weakened by the corrosion and might break apart. Again, the corrosion is there.....you just don't see it when you look inside the inner slide tube.

We simply have different preferences. You like the convenience, consistency and solid feel of that soldered leadpipe. I sleep better at night when I know that my trombones are corrosion-free from mouthpiece to bell.

Yup I buy all of that. The fit and finish of most, not all, newer/ish instruments is a huge issue. Corrosion that develops within 3/4 months is completely unacceptable due to poor design. Most people probably don't clean out their inner slides as often as I do. I have had my horns scoped and luckily for me there is no visible evidence of corrosion. What's underneath doesn't worry me as it will be minimal and I'll never have the pipes removed. But as far as I'm concerned I'm way ahead of the game when it comes to corrosion issues. Then there's acid bleed on new instruments-don't get me started.

When is it ok to solder in leadpipe? It depends on if you are a Mooninite or not:



"We do whatever we want, to whomever we want, at all times"

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:47 am ...
If you have an Elkhart Conn with the original leadpipe, I absolutely DO NOT recommend that you attempt to remove the leadpipe.

Oh, NOW you tell me!...

https://goo.gl/photos/FNWnxsgGR55GSDwq5

Tom, what's a picture of a 2B got to do with this topic? Did you mean to point to a different set of photos?

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:47 am If you have an Elkhart Conn with the original leadpipe, I absolutely DO NOT recommend that you attempt to remove the leadpipe. I estimate that the success rate of removing that leadpipe would only be 40-50%. The problem with removing leadpipes on older instruments is that the corrosion between the outside of the leadpipe and the inner slide can sometimes be a stronger bond than the solder itself. Thus, the leadpipe sometimes will not move. The other problem is that the leadpipe could be weakened by the corrosion and might break apart. Again, the corrosion is there.....you just don't see it when you look inside the inner slide tube.

When I bought the horn the leadpipe was already removed and converted to press fit. The horn came with the original Conn pipe and an Edwards leadpipe, both press fit.

After all of this discussion I'll plan to continue to use plumbers tape and when I get around to it, I'll spend the $200-300 on making them threaded. It's just not high on my list right now.

I really appreciated everyone's insight.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:37 am Tom, what's a picture of a 2B got to do with this topic? Did you mean to point to a different set of photos?

Fixed.

greenbean wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:28 am

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:47 am ...
If you have an Elkhart Conn with the original leadpipe, I absolutely DO NOT recommend that you attempt to remove the leadpipe.

Oh, NOW you tell me!...

https://goo.gl/photos/FNWnxsgGR55GSDwq5

Yep! That looks very familiar. The sad thing is that I have seen leadpipes look like that coming out of horns that were only 2 or 3 years old! I have never thought to photograph the remains.....I instinctively throw them away. I appreciate that you posted the photo and it emphasizes why I always recommend a removable leadpipe system. But.....a removable leadpipe system only has an advantage if the musician takes the pipe out every few weeks and cleans everything thoroughly.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:07 pm This is the huge advantage of having a removable leadpipe system. It is my advice to take the leadpipe out regularly to clean the inside AND OUTSIDE of the leadpipe, along with the inside of the slide.

For this reason, I always recommend choosing a removable leadpipe system. If you remove the leadpipe and clean it regularly, it will last 100+ years with no corrosion.

And how do you recommend I clean the leadpipe? Other than maybe using brass polish I’m not really sure what to do.

Definitely at least remove it and let it and the inner slide dry out. Sean inner slide without the leadpipe in it too.

JLivi wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:04 pm

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:07 pm This is the huge advantage of having a removable leadpipe system. It is my advice to take the leadpipe out regularly to clean the inside AND OUTSIDE of the leadpipe, along with the inside of the slide.

For this reason, I always recommend choosing a removable leadpipe system. If you remove the leadpipe and clean it regularly, it will last 100+ years with no corrosion.

And how do you recommend I clean the leadpipe? Other than maybe using brass polish I’m not really sure what to do.

How you clean it depends on if you are going to continue playing it or if you are putting it in storage.....

*If you are just cleaning it to continue playing: Pull out the leadpipe, swab the inner slide and swab the inside of the leadpipe. If the leadpipe has any blue, green or white chalky stuff on it, you are accumulating mineral deposits and that will take you down the path of corrosion. Sometimes a simple scubbing with fine steel wool on the outside of the leadpipe will do the job. If the mineral deposits are really attached to the metal, you can do your own chemical clean by pouring vinegar (a weak form of acetic acid) in a tall glass and soaking the leadpipe in the vinegar for 20-25 minutes. Rinse and dry (swab inside of leadpipe again). Applying some thick tuning slide grease to the outside of the end of the leadpipe will give you a better seal and postpone the accumulation of future mineral deposits. However, tuning slide grease does make for more work when swabbing the inside of the inner slide.

*If you are cleaning the instrument for long-term storage. Most of the above steps apply. However, the slide and leadpipe should be stored absolutely dry. I vacuum my slides for 3 or 4 minutes after swabbing them and that usually removes all traces of moisture. I recommend that you store the leadpipe separate from the horn because it ensures that all parts stay dry while in storage. I store my leadpipes on racks that were designed to hold plastic recorders for elementary school music classes.
https://trombonechat.com/download/file. ... w&id=13458

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:07 pm How you clean it depends on if you are going to continue playing it or if you are putting it in storage.....

Thank you! That's very helpful