TromboneChat

After tuning to Eb, 2nd/4th partial, I have noticed that the horn slots in bizarre ways vs. a tenor. Is this normal?

A tenor trombone 3rd partial (F) is sharp - but on my alto, the 3rd partial (Bb) tends to be right in tune. 4th partial (Eb) tends to be ~5-10c sharp, and then by the 5th partial (D on tenor, G on alto) the tendency is for the pitch to be ~25-30c sharp!! (On a tenor trombone, this partial is supposed to be ever so slightly flat!) By the 8th partial, (Bb tenor/Eb alto) which is supposed to be in tune, there is again a tendency to be ~10c sharp.

I have tested out all of my small-bore mouthpieces to see if this is hardware related, including: 5G, 6.5AL, 6.75C, 7C, 11C, 12C, 15EW, and a smaller rim, deeper cup antique Conn-Innes. (The Conn-Innes has the nicest tone, but same intonation problems) I have also tried swapping between my three different lead pipes. There are minor differences, but the odd slotting tendencies persist.

My horn is a Shires Custom with straight 0.485 slide, Bb valve, and rose bell.

I can easily bend the pitch up and down to correct with my embouchure or the slide, but relearning the tendencies of around half the pitches on this instrument is a miserable, daunting task.

Any ideas why this is happening, and what I might do about it?

(My current solution is to play alto parts in tune on my fabulous small bore tenor Conn 12H with Coprion bell.)

Every alto I've played has a sharp G partial. That's par for the course. This includes Shires, Courtois, and Thein. You just need to get used to it.

I have noticed that while G is sharp, F# is less sharp, and F is usually pretty close.

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:56 pm Every alto I've played has a sharp G partial. That's par for the course. This includes Shires, Courtois, and Thein. You just need to get used to it.

Same experience and I play a Bach 39 alto.

/Tom

Proportions of conical vs cylindrical tubing is often different on alto than on tenor. The bore and bell size relationship to the length is also different. So yeah, the tendencies are often not quite the same. I have the same experience with some bass sackbuts where the 5th partial is sharp on certain models.

I have found that the Shires horns with TIS have pretty good partials (no cylindrical section in the bell), but yes, you need to pull the G partial out. They are very predictable and play well IF:

1. You accept that the bell is in the wrong place / the slide is too long. (Even with the TIS completely closed, I find Eb is dangerously close to the bumpers and the Db harmonic series is in a weird place from the bell). The whole system is about an inch too long.

2. You have a mouthpiece designed for the horn.

3. Your technique is correct for alto, and you're not trying to play it like tenor.

There are a ton of things that could be going on, though. Maybe think about some of these:

You might have face adjustments that you do for tenor baked into your playing, which exacerbates the different tendencies of your alto. You have to play in the center no matter what horn you're on.

Your mouthpiece throat might be too big -- normal tenor pieces have throats that are too wide for alto. It's relatively common knowledge in trumpet world that a large throat spreads your octaves out. A tight throat compresses the octaves.

Your shank might not be correct for the alto -- in my experience almost no mouthpieces exist that are properly designed for the alto trombone. Shires TIS altos play best with a slightly narrower outer taper (ie the DE alto S). Some of this may have to do with the fact that it shortens a horn that is already too long, but I think the biggest reason is that it shortens the "gap" on the Shires horn. This shank also works best on the 36H ... Unless you decide to cut the tuning slide legs short like I did. Then the normal alto shank works best.

You mention that you tune to 2nd and 4th partial Eb, but that your 4th partial Eb is 10c sharp. How is that possible? I think this may be an indication that your approach to creating sound on the alto might be off. Too aggressive maybe? Or, it could be an indication that you want very badly to play Eb in a closed first position, tune that way, and once you get playing you slowly stop lipping the 4 partial Eb down.

The first position G is usually sharp on most altos. A mouthpiece that fits properly, and has a backbore that is designed for alto can help minimize some adjustments. There are quite a lot of differences in how close the bell is to your face between different makes. Take all of this into account, and do a lot of practicing with drones and/or a tuner. It will come. Also regarding mouthpiece, I don't personally find too much difference between rim sizes, except for personal comfort, but a proper cup (fairly shallow) really helps center the instrument and lines up the harmonics better. I use a cup that corresponds more or less with the Bach C cups.

Jim Scott

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:06 pm The first position G is usually sharp on most altos. A mouthpiece that fits properly, and has a backbore that is designed for alto can help minimize some adjustments. There are quite a lot of differences in how close the bell is to your face between different makes. Take all of this into account, and do a lot of practicing with drones and/or a tuner. It will come. Also regarding mouthpiece, I don't personally find too much difference between rim sizes, except for personal comfort, but a proper cup (fairly shallow) really helps center the instrument and lines up the harmonics better. I use a cup that corresponds more or less with the Bach C cups.

Jim Scott

I agree about cup depth. Too deep and the tuning tendencies get amplified.

Yes, shallow cup depth is a must. My votes for alto pieces that actually work are the Conn 7C, 15CL, and DE A or B cup with alto shank. However, since the DE rim is the only option that lets my embouchure function properly, that's the one I use. It's a great alto piece!

The Shires 11C they ship with their horns is an interesting curio/paperweight -- it adds and additional 50% of the weight of the horn into the system! Such a heavy blank.

I'm not that fond of really shallow cups - 12E's, etc. To me, that's just too bright. Lots of people have had good luck with the Yamaha 48A, and I play an Ultimate Brass alto mouthpiece that is similar to that. Mine is a custom mpc. that uses my tenor rim with their A1 cup. Works for me, although we started rehearsals for Beethoven 5 this morning - a run-through of the piece followed by about another 45 - 50 minutes on the last mvt. Those F's and E's were feeling like even more work than usual by the end! Nice to be playing full orchestra stuff again - good to be with my colleagues!

Jim Scott

The alto trombone is a different animal, you can’t/don’t play or expect it to sound like a tenor

How much time are you putting into it?

There are no short cuts or quick fixes

Another vote for Yamaha 48A. They somehow got that right.

Pitch is a lot better with a shallow mouthpiece for me. I think that has to do with model of alto. Many say they play alto on Bach 7C and alike but that doesn't work for me. My Bach 39 wich is my preferred alto plays and sounds best with a Bach 12E or Bach 15E mouthpiece or others as shallow. I have also tried a Yamaha 48A.

I also have two Thomann altos. They are both larger than the Bach 39. With those I can also use a Bach 11C or my Nils Landgren Yamaha mouthpiece or others like the Bach 7C. The Thomann altos sound are to me a lot closer to a small tenor and if that is what's wanted they are great. Partials are better lined up compared to a Bach 39. The Thomann altos are really good worth for the money.

/Tom

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 5:44 pm Yes, shallow cup depth is a must. My votes for alto pieces that actually work are the Conn 7C, 15CL, and DE A or B cup with alto shank. However, since the DE rim is the only option that lets my embouchure function properly, that's the one I use. It's a great alto piece!

The Shires 11C they ship with their horns is an interesting curio/paperweight -- it adds and additional 50% of the weight of the horn into the system! Such a heavy blank.

Thanks for the mouthpiece recommendations. Yes, I received an 11C with the horn as well, for me it was the worst mouthpiece I ever tried. I gave it to a friend of mine who uses it on his small bore tenors, it was a perfect match for his embouchure!

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:15 pm Proportions of conical vs cylindrical tubing is often different on alto than on tenor. The bore and bell size relationship to the length is also different. So yeah, the tendencies are often not quite the same. I have the same experience with some bass sackbuts where the 5th partial is sharp on certain models.

This proportions explanation is the best explanation I have ever come across. Thanks! If different proportions would in fact help the pitch issues, it's kind of a shame they aren't baked into the alto design.

imsevimse wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:26 am Pitch is a lot better with a shallow mouthpiece for me. I think that has to do with model of alto. Many say they play alto on Bach 7C and alike but that doesn't work for me. My Bach 39 wich is my preferred alto plays and sounds best with a Bach 12E or Bach 15E mouthpiece or others as shallow. I have also tried a Yamaha 48A.

I also have two Thomann altos. They are both larger than the Bach 39. With those I can also use a Bach 11C or my Nils Landgren Yamaha mouthpiece or others like the Bach 7C. The Thomann altos sound are to me a lot closer to a small tenor and if that is what's wanted they are great. Partials are better lined up compared to a Bach 39. The Thomann altos are really good worth for the money.

/Tom

I hadn't even heard of that brand before. Geez, for $200 there is not much risk involved in trying one out! Thanks!

I really do prefer for an alto trombone to sound like a (very) small tenor. If I wanted to sound like a bass trumpet, I'd buy a bass trumpet!

Thanks, everyone for your inputs! All of your responses were helpful in different ways.

I just bought a 48A mouthpiece just in case that helps at all, and a friend of mine will be bringing over his Yamaha 671 alto this Sunday.

When I looked up the 671 it took me to a similar conversation on this forum from a couple of years ago. Sharp G partial confirmed by pretty much everyone. I'll just have to get used to it!

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=13547

My post started that linked thread originally and in the meantime I changed a few things for the better.

1) I‘ve moved over to playing with the tuning slide fully in. With this system it became much less noticeable that one or other note is not where I‘d expect relative to the equivalent partial on tenor because everything is in a weird position at first. It boils down to listening really carefully on every note which you are really forced to do with this tuning system, rather than relying on muscle memory. I also believe the horn just played better like that. It also helps me to prepare for those cold, exposed parts in orchestra after a long rest where the instrument would be out of tune (usually flat) and I can play the positions a bit sharp at the start of a passage until the instrument (and chops) warm up. That‘s probably the main use case of alto for me anyway!

2) I was already playing the 48A which worked pretty well, I also got a 15CL which I liked ok with the Yamaha 671, though no better intonation than the 48A, but…

3) After a while and for some niche reasons I got a Conn 36H and sold the Yamaha. I still have the tuning slide fully in btw. The 15CL works excellently with that horn, the only issue is that I find the 48A significantly more comfortable so generally revert to it, even if the tuning is slightly more variable than with the 15CL on that horn.

4) Most importantly, lots of practice, at home with a tuner, with music -1 videos and in actual rehearsals with other people (what a novelty!)

The Yamaha 48A mouthpiece came in today. What a fantastic mouthpiece!!

Of course, I know it won't magically fix intonation - but I can immediately attest to the fact that it slots better than all of my other mouthpieces, and it produces an extremely clean tone, right up to high F and beyond.

Many of the tendencies in different partials which were flat or sharp have decreased significantly even compared to other small mouthpieces like the 12C and 15EW - but the sound is better (the 15EW sounds like a trumpet).

I won't go over the specifics because I don't think that will help anyone, seeing how manic the alto trombone can be. But most importantly, my EARS are nowy happy with what is coming out of the other end of the horn. Thanks again, hive mind!

EVERY horn has its own personality and quirks. You just have to learn the horn to play it well. Play on a bunch of Altos and you'll find that none plays like the others.

I find that if I leave the tuning slide in, I have more predictability. When the tuning slide is moved the horn changes and all the line up change. Best to just play the slide longer or shorter.
I have also found that once in a while the horn changes while playing, or resting then the next time you play. With the tuning slide in, that change is also easier to deal with.
I have found having a tuner on the stand helps. It is so easy to get off pitch a little here and there, then miss one note by a partial or something stupid, the tuner helps my confidence. Often it is confident I am wrong. I use that Peterson stroboplus unit.

Learning to play alto is like learning to do calligraphy left handed.

whitbey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:20 am I find that if I leave the tuning slide in, I have more predictability. When the tuning slide is moved the horn changes and all the line up change. Best to just play the slide longer or shorter.

I think so too.
And it solves the problem of getting out to 7th quickly to play E in the staff.
You just play it in 1st and lip it up - because you probably don't have a 7th.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:02 pm

whitbey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:20 am I find that if I leave the tuning slide in, I have more predictability. When the tuning slide is moved the horn changes and all the line up change. Best to just play the slide longer or shorter.

I think so too.
And it solves the problem of getting out to 7th quickly to play E in the staff.
You just play it in 1st and lip it up - because you probably don't have a 7th.

I have plenty of 7th. and it is a 34H so I can use the valve too. The low slide is longer in the Conn, so moves easy.

You sure it's a 34H? I thought the one with the Bb valve was the 36H (what I play).

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:24 pm You sure it's a 34H? I thought the one with the Bb valve was the 36H (what I play).

Apparently Whitbey customized his straight Conn 34H Alto by adding a valve and tubing.

Apparently Whitbey customized his straight Conn 34H Alto by adding a valve and tubing.

My 34H was out of the box. The only alteration was the pencil clip.

My experience is that if you move the main tuning slide, the line up of the partials changes. So I just push it all the way in and move the right arm out. Never had enough variation to have 7h give me trouble.

So they put a 34H bell marking on your 36H?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:02 pm So they put a 34H bell marking on your 36H?

And priced it accordingly?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:02 pm So they put a 34H bell marking on your 36H?

It really is a 36H. I bought it right after my divorce and the xwife stole 2 numbers.

whitbey wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:53 am It really is a 36H. I bought it right after my divorce and the xwife stole 2 numbers.

Only 2? You got away easy!