TromboneChat

Posted: **Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:27 pm**

Hi all,

I'm preparing a program that includes Ruslan & Lyudmila on principal. The last time (and only time) I've played this was at college on 2nd trombone, and the person playing 1st only had access to a tenor.

Those who've played it multiple times (and preferably in larger professional ensembles) give me your take on why tenor or why alto for the 1st trombone part.

Thanks!

Posted: **Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:04 pm**

http://www.jayfriedman.net/to-alt-or-not-to-alt/

Jay seems to think Glinka wrote for alto trombone. Didn't reference that piece specifically though. Why not reach out to him?

Posted: **Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:21 pm**

When my orchestra played it, I used a tenor. The part isn't written that high and an alto is too small to blend with a 2nd on a large bore tenor.

I guess if you wanted to scale down like a Mozart section with 2nd on a small bore tenor you could use an alto on 1st. Could be up to the conductor. The Mozart section will have a very different trombone sound.

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:24 am**

I’m not convinced by any argument that the alto trombone was used in Russia. From quite early during the nationalist movement, composers such as Mussorgsky wrote very high first trombone parts (see the original version of Night on the Bare Mountain). Trombones and other instruments were imported to Russia from Germany and Russian trombonists had a predilection for large instruments. Even though Russian composers adopted the quite confusing and outdated practice of notating the first and second (sometimes even third) trombone parts in the alto clef, this really was an anachronism due to the custom of composers such as Schumann, who first did so. It was absolutely not the custom for most composers to do this and definitely does not indicate the use of an alto trombone for the first trombone part.

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:26 am**

Quite honestly, I've done it on both, and mostly depending on what instrument I was using on the rest of the concert, because I think it works either way. If you look at the whole opera, the tessitura is pretty high, and definitely never gets below alto range. Even if alto wasn't being used at the time, I think the concept of an alto voice that doesn't share in the lower range of the section was still there, and you could make a case for either alto or tenor on that part.

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:48 am**

Tenor, because it's loud.

Alto, because doubling.

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:29 am**

Thank you all for your answers so far.

If it's any additional help, here is the entire program:

Glinka - Ruslan and Lyudmila
Saint Saens - Danse Macabre
Rimsky Korsakov - Danse des Bouffons from The Snow Maiden
Tchaikovsky - Valse from Sleeping Beauty Suite
Bizet - Carmen Suite No.1 - Les Toreadors
Bizet - Carmen: Suite No.2 - Danse Boheme
Rimsky-Korsakov - Capriccio Espagnol
Wagner - Ride of the Valkyries
~~~INTERMISSION~~~
Tchaikovsky - Danse des cygnes from Swan Lake
Bernstein - Candide Overture
Williams - Harry’s Wondrous World
Strauss - Tritsch-Tratsch Polka
Offenbach - Gaité Parisienne, Can-Can
Bizet - Aagonaise
Tchaikovsky - Valse from Swan Lake
Ravel - Bolero
Bizet - Carmen Suite No 1-Les Toreadors (cut from B to E)

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:30 am**

Should be pretty easy on the face, judging by that list

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:48 am**

Looks like a light classics program. Everything else but Ruslan is definitely tenor rep. I would just play tenor for the whole thing. At least you aren't sitting out for 3/4 of the concert. I like having stuff to play.

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:16 am**

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:48 am Tenor, because it's loud.

Alto, because doubling.

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:53 pm**

I notice that in Will Kimball's Alto Trombone History Timeline there are no contemporary mentions of alto trombones
in Russia during Glinka's lifetime, with altos seeming rare overall outside of German-speaking lands during that time.

https://kimballtrombone.com/alto-trombo ... -timeline/

It is possible he simply hasn't encountered actual Russian-language mentions.

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:36 pm**

Years ago, I played it on tenor, with no problem. [But altos were not readily available or commonly used then!]

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:31 pm**

Oof. You might want TWO assistants for that program. I live in the regional orchestra world though...that ain't happening.

At least you'll be plenty warmed up for Bolero!

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:00 pm**

Yeah that program is, a lot. That's a lot of music there.

"Let's play all the music. That'll show them"

Posted: **Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:02 am**

Professor of the Leningrad Conservatory Viktor Sumerkin (1933-2019) wrote in his book "Trombone" (1975): "In the second quarter of the 19th century in Russia and Germany, composers used the traditional trio of trombones (alto, tenor, bass) in the orchestra, in France and Italy - three tenor trombones."
Hector Berlioz suggested abandoning the alto trombone altogether. He didn't like the sound of the alto trombone. The small bore tenor used in France sounded much better in his opinion. His point of view won and the alto trombone was forgotten for 100 years. Alto parts began to be performed on the tenor all over the world and in Russia as well.
Therefore, the music of early Russian composers (Glinka, etc.) must be played on the alto, and later (Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky, etc.) must be played on the tenor.

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:44 pm**

Trombo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:02 am Professor of the Leningrad Conservatory Viktor Sumerkin (1933-2019) wrote in his book "Trombone" (1975): "In the second quarter of the 19th century in Russia and Germany, composers used the traditional trio of trombones (alto, tenor, bass) in the orchestra, in France and Italy - three tenor trombones."
Hector Berlioz suggested abandoning the alto trombone altogether. He didn't like the sound of the alto trombone. The small bore tenor used in France sounded much better in his opinion. His point of view won and the alto trombone was forgotten for 100 years. Alto parts began to be performed on the tenor all over the world and in Russia as well.
Therefore, the music of early Russian composers (Glinka, etc.) must be played on the alto, and later (Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky, etc.) must be played on the tenor.

Interesting find! Thanks for your reply!

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:58 pm**

Trombo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:02 am .... the music of early Russian composers (Glinka, etc.) must be played on the alto, and later (Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky, etc.) must be played on the tenor.

must ?

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:11 pm**

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:58 pm
Trombo wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:02 am .... the music of early Russian composers (Glinka, etc.) must be played on the alto, and later (Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky, etc.) must be played on the tenor.
must ?

I see where you're going, but I can't even imagine trying to play Tchaik 5 or Pictures on alto. I think he's right-on, although the word must might be better changed to "should"

Posted: **Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:42 am**

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:11 pm
Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:58 pm

must ?
I see where you're going, but I can't even imagine trying to play Tchaik 5 or Pictures on alto. I think he's right-on, although the word must might be better changed to "should"

Please forgive my poor English.

Posted: **Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:13 am**

Trombo wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:42 am
BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:11 pm I see where you're going, but I can't even imagine trying to play Tchaik 5 or Pictures on alto. I think he's right-on, although the word must might be better changed to "should"
Please forgive my poor English.

Not a criticism of your English - just that I think not all conductors would insist on alto trombone for all early Russian works (Glinka, etc.). Much of that repertoire sounds good on tenor trombone.

Thanks for contributing, Trombo.

Posted: **Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:51 am**

Thanks for the kind words.
When I was a student at the conservatory in the 1980s, we played alto trombone concertos by Albrechtsberger and Wagenseil on the tenor because we didn't have alto back then. In the 1980s, I myself played 1 trombone "Ruslan and Lyudmila" on the tenor. And it sounded good. I listened to the final of the international competition of the Moscow Conservatory in 2019, where 4 finalists played Wagenseil on alto and 1 played tenor. This was allowed by the terms of the competition. This finalist sounded very good and won the 3rd prize.
Yes, it's a matter of taste.
Everyone chooses for himself what he likes best.
Bruce is right that if you use an alto, then the second trombone should not be a large bore tenor. It should be a medium bore tenor (IMHO).

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:15 pm**

Update: I played the Glinka on alto, and everything else on tenor. Thank you.

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:26 pm**

Doubling:

TromboneChat

Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?

Re: Glinka: Ruslan and Lyudmila, 1st trombone: Tenor or Alto & why?