Courtois AC420 Legend vs Courtois New York Creation

[kyubone]

The horn I'm using right now is ac420 legend (made in France)
Compared to this instrument, what do you think about New York Creation?

[LowBrassJunkie]

For a comparison, it depends on which variation of the AC420 you are using (Rotor, hagmann or thayer). The NY is only offered with a hagmann valve, so comparing it against the 420BH would end up being the most similar.

Overall these are two very different instruments. The NY creation has multiple unique feature as compared to the 420 line, the most obvious being the screw cut bell flare that comes with it. The bracing against the bell is also different. The 420 line has two braces that connect the bell to the F attachment, while the NY model only has one that is placed farther towards the flare. So the entire nickel sleeve on the F attachment has zero bracing. The main tuning slide on both the NY tenor and bass are reversed, a large difference between it and the 420 line. Both the 420 and NY have the same .547 bore, but the standard 420 slide comes with nickel sleeves at the top, whereas the NY has extrusions at the top of the slide.

For ergonomics, the horn comes with a removable bullet brace style grip on it. This is something that the B&S horns feature that they incorporated onto the NY model. Some have said there is a large playing difference between having the grip on and off. Most Courtois horns come in the Jakob Winter fiber cases, however, the NY tenor and bass come in the Marcus bonna screw bell cases with courtois logos embroidered onto it.

There will also be some unique differences for you since you are playing a French made Courtois. The French and German horns play a good bit different, and the NY creation model was only made after the instruments started being produced in Germany.

But your best bet is to call a few music stores to see who have 1 to compare against your Courtois! Overall these are beautifully made instruments with some of the richest history in instrument manufacturing.

[Burgerbob]

A friend of mine got one of the New York horns because it played so well. However, the intonation was different enough that he had to sell it.

The bell was apparently moved back (towards the player) to compensate for the added weight of the screw ring, and it changes things pretty drastically.

[timbone]

I don’t think the cut bell was moved to adjust balance, it was just a matter of convenience of function. Meanwhile I’ve played and owned several horns with “cut back” bells to facilitate mute changes with little or no apparent difference in intonation- however players like to gauge where they see the bell in relation to third and fourth position and that will influence some.

[rptbone]

Would anyone happen to know if the standard rotary valve on the Courtois AC420BO is more open (or same valve) than one on the Bach 42BO? Have heard many complaints about the "stuffiness" on the Bach 42 standard rotary valve, but not on the Courtois AC420BO so far.

[MBurner]

I played a 420 Legend with Hagmann that was developed with Weston Sprott and Demian Austin, back when they were still built in France. It was a lighter version of a Bach 42A. Really great ring to the sound, definitely on the lighter brighter side. The slide action is very good with no adjustments, the Hagmann valve is a great compromise to the overly open thayer or a too tight traditional rotor. (To some, in both situations) Intonation is different compared to other brands like Edwards, Bach, Shires. The horn was designed for the MET, where they need response and flexibility, and to cut out to 3800 seats.
The NY 421 model takes most of the same design principles and brings in more weight. The bracing was moved off of the bell section entirely where there used to be a connection between the F valve tubing and upper flare, and the bell was cut. Cut bells in my opinion add weight which helps projection and keeps the sound from breaking up as quickly. Think how we used to wrap the bell flare with duct tape, use Lindberg Resistance Balancers, etc etc. In my opinion, you do lose some of the coloür that you can get with a one part bell section, but to each their own.
I do not know if the bell on the NY is a natural 1 or two piece bell. The 420 was a one piece Bach styled bell, and the 440 series was a very well made Conn styled bell that was two piece. When I studied with Demian, we went to the Buffet Crampon store and ran into Dudley Bright, who really loved the 440.
My opinions: 421 is a good horn, less resistant and more effort to play. Articulations slot better, but it’s heavier. Good slide. If you can try it, do that. It’s a significant difference.

[harrisonreed]

Cut bells in my opinion add weight which helps projection and keeps the sound from breaking up as quickly. Think how we used to wrap the bell flare with duct tape, use Lindberg Resistance Balancers, etc etc. In my opinion, you do lose some of the coloür that you can get with a one part bell section, but to each their own.

Somewhat off topic, but the effect you get from an Amrein tone enhancer ring (or the Calder Pips copy) or cut bell ring is not quite the same thing as using the tape or resistance balancer near the brace of the bell. Not saying one is better than the other, and everything is a fad, but for me the weak point of the bell is generally the main brace point. The spot where the tone rings and cut bell point attach is close to where a two-piece bell is joined -- building that area back up negates the character of such a bell and why you would choose a two piece bell to begin with. I can see it being a way to turn an 88H into something completely different.

[Digidog]

I don't entirely know why, and I work on finding out, but I have such a hard time liking Hagmann valves. I know I find the throw awkward and unprecise, but there is something else I snag on that I haven't defined my feeling of.

Now, I'd love to try a Courtois 422 Creation Paris with the Icon valve.....but maybe with a regular weight slide.