TromboneChat

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:36 pm**

If you could revive or update any old model trombone, what would it be?

I would probably bring back a 6h or 48/38h variant, Martin Urbie model, and maybe 32h with a wider slide. Maybe a Minick 100h.

On the bass side, an Olds P24g, Conn 62h TIS and Holton 180, or one of the classic singles (169, 185) updated as a double.

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:01 pm**

I would really like another minick bell, but a little heavier. My bell is pretty light, like really light and i would love to try a heavier option.

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:05 pm**

I think the premise is neat, but do we want them to be built by the modern company or by the original craftsmen?

I think a new Fuchs 70H would be cool (I'm aware of Noah's project), but I'm not sure if I would want it built by the current Conn factory, for instance. A non-Fuchs 70H would be really neat too.

Same thing with the Bach 12, 34, 40, 45, 46.

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:12 pm**

Whatever trombone Minick made Christian for his first album. That trombone sounds unbelievable.

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:03 pm**

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:12 pm Whatever trombone Minick made Christian for his first album. That trombone sounds unbelievable.

I think Christian sounds incredible on that album… but the horn doesn’t make a sound without the player…

Posted: **Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:16 pm**

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:03 pm
harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:12 pm Whatever trombone Minick made Christian for his first album. That trombone sounds unbelievable.
I think Christian sounds incredible on that album… but the horn doesn’t make a sound without the player…

Ah, yeah but those first few albums, including the Romantic Trombone Concertos one, were on that Minick and the sound was really special. On the latter albums it was the same guy practicing probably even more, but with a different setup (yellow 88H and then the sterling bell) and he sounded terrific but it was a different sound fun those first albums. I'm sure the mouthpiece change made a big difference too.

Posted: **Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:15 am**

Holton TR 156!

Posted: **Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:11 am**

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:36 pm Martin Urbie model

Yes. I can understand commercially why it went - too many C-S lines, and by the turn of the millenium maybe the UG name wasn't quite as much of a draw, with younger customers preferring to invest in Beanie Babies and cursor trails - but that was a really well thought-out design.

I played one back to back with a variety of Kings a few weeks ago, and the sound had shockingly more depth and complexity, especially given how light it is. Super even response, perhaps a little tight overall for my tastes, but great high slots, and the thoughtful details - chromed neckpipe, no trim ring on the upper slide outer to remind you to only put cork in the lower barrel so you can't directly smack yourself in the teeth, etc.

Maybe the sound isn't for everyone, but it feels like an instrument that Conn, King and Bach people could all pick up and not immediately hate.

Maybe a Minick 100h.

I mean, you can still get a Conn 100H, however much a betrayal of the original that is or isn't. Briefly tried a recent Elkhart one. It felt cheap and bad, and only the latter was true.

Posted: **Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:25 am**

Revive? Find in mint condition somewhere is more like. If so a few Holton 185s, another sterling 2B, and an Elkhart 88H.

Posted: **Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:05 am**

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:12 pm Whatever trombone Minick made Christian for his first album. That trombone sounds unbelievable.

I have a Minick similar to Christian’s made a few years before his. It’s basically an 88h with a beryllium bell spun on an 88h mandrel. It has a very dense sound compared to a regular 88h along the lines of sterling silver. It’s a great horn, ideal for solo work, it’s hard to get it to blend in a section.

Posted: **Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:48 am**

KING Duo Gravis 6B

Posted: **Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:37 pm**

TIS horns with modern materials and techniques are pretty awesome, some more standard options for that would be great.

Posted: **Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:11 pm**

I saw a couple of mentions of large tenor and bass Holtons already, maybe one or two small bore Holtons also? There’s not much on the market, other than from boutique makers, in the sub-0.500” range. Perhaps there’s a very small gap in the market for someone?

Posted: **Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:50 pm**

There are so many cool old horns that I wish still existed, perhaps with updated tech (new Holton-style basses with better valves and less clunky linkages, please and thanks).

I feel like several makers have put modern spins on the vintage 62H design. How much of that old magic they successfully capture is a matter of opinion.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:03 pm**

Just one?

You all know I'm going to say 72H, but I'm going to say it anyway.

72H. Both single and indy.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:41 pm**

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:03 pm Just one?
You all know I'm going to say 72H, but I'm going to say it anyway.
72H. Both single and indy.

I have a 71H, which I like a lot, but I've never seen a 72H. What's the difference between the two?

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:48 pm**

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:41 pm
Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:03 pm Just one?
You all know I'm going to say 72H, but I'm going to say it anyway.
72H. Both single and indy.
I have a 71H, which I like a lot, but I've never seen a 72H. What's the difference between the two?

Seems like it's mainly the valve wrap. 72h is more 88h-ish, and 71h is more... 50h ish, or like a 62h without the second valve. If that makes sense.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:00 pm**

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:41 pmI have a 71H, which I like a lot, but I've never seen a 72H. What's the difference between the two?

There's been a couple of threads on that semi-recently. As far as I remember, the main difference is the wrap as mentioned. Maybe the leadpipe?

All I know is, the 71H I briefly owned was a dog. Every 72H I've played has been awesome.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:48 pm 72h is more... 50h ish, or like a 62h without the second valve.

60H!

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:05 pm**

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:00 pm
hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:48 pm 71h is more... 50h ish, or like a 62h without the second valve.
60H!

Yes, of course!

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:16 pm**

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:48 pm
Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:41 pm

I have a 71H, which I like a lot, but I've never seen a 72H. What's the difference between the two?
Seems like it's mainly the valve wrap. 72h is more 88h-ish, and 71h is more... 50h ish, or like a 62h without the second valve. If that makes sense.

Ah, got it. Thanks. The 72H does have a rather 88H wrap. Found photos:
71H: https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn71H1970image.html
72H: https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn72HC1964image.html

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:27 pm**

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:00 pm ... the 71H I briefly owned was a dog. Every 72H I've played has been awesome.

Well, I'm happy with my (Elkhart, 1969) 71H (just as I suppose some dog owners are happy with their ugly mutts), but I've never tried a 72H - and I'm a doubler, not a bass trombonist, so I'll live with what I've got.

Posted: **Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:45 pm**

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:27 pm Well, I'm happy with my (Elkhart, 1969) 71H (just as I suppose some dog owners are happy with their ugly mutts), but I've never tried a 72H - and I'm a doubler, not a bass trombonist, so I'll live with what I've got.

I'm sure yours is a much better instrument than mine was!

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:43 am**

Williams 6
Minick 100H
Conn 6H
Conn 48H

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:19 am**

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:25 am Revive? Find in mint condition somewhere is more like. If so a few Holton 185s, another sterling 2B, and an Elkhart 88H.

It’s getting harder to find any of these old desirable horns in playable condition anymore, let alone mint. And if they are in good to excellent condition, they often sell at a premium.

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:47 am**

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:19 am
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:25 am Revive? Find in mint condition somewhere is more like. If so a few Holton 185s, another sterling 2B, and an Elkhart 88H.
It’s getting harder to find any of these old desirable horns in playable condition anymore, let alone mint. And if they are in good to excellent condition, they often sell at a premium.

Very true. I think my only point was that if I had a choice I'd love for some of the original models to "appear from space" rather than play an a maker's attempt to revive an older instrument.

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:59 am**

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:47 am
Kbiggs wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:19 am

It’s getting harder to find any of these old desirable horns in playable condition anymore, let alone mint. And if they are in good to excellent condition, they often sell at a premium.
Very true. I think my only point was that if I had a choice I'd love for some of the original models to "appear from space" rather than play an a maker's attempt to revive an older instrument.

Some, like the 62h, Holton 180 and the Duo Gravis, you would probably want them to reappear with split levers. Or some of the single valve basses you might want a plugin valve.

Posted: **Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:32 pm**

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:59 am
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:47 am

Very true. I think my only point was that if I had a choice I'd love for some of the original models to "appear from space" rather than play an a maker's attempt to revive an older instrument.
Some, like the 62h, Holton 180 and the Duo Gravis, you would probably want them to reappear with split levers. Or some of the single valve basses you might want a plugin valve.

100% YES!!!

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:15 am**

Duo Gravis but with already split triggers and an F trigger that is really comfortable!... Doug

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:51 am**

DougHulme wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:15 am Duo Gravis but with already split triggers and an F trigger that is really comfortable!... Doug

What if (like me) you found the original setup of the F trigger comfortable?

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:51 pm**

How about manufacturing the King Duo Gravis exactly like George McCracken designed it ?

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:10 pm**

2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:51 pm How about manufacturing the King Duo Gravis exactly like George McCracken designed it ?

With split triggers, sure!

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:38 pm**

That is not the way that George McCracken designed it !

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:07 pm**

2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:38 pm That is not the way that George McCracken designed it !

Then that's a hard pass, haha

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:29 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:07 pm
2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:38 pm That is not the way that George McCracken designed it !
Then that's a hard pass, haha

I learned to play bass in early high school on a Duo Gravis. Since college, I have tried and tried to love a DG because I do A LOT of big band work. I've had 6-7 of them pass through my hands and the one I currently have is the best playing example of them all. But, I think I'm (still reluctantly) going to sell it. I just don't think there are any trigger modifications which are going to make it playable for me. I don't have very large hands and the bell brace is just in the way for me. Even if I were to have the triggers split, I'm pretty confident there's not going to be a way to position the thumb level in a spot where the horn wouldn't shift around on my face when I use it. The brace rests in the perlicue of my hand in a way that causes the weight of the horn to shift around even if I was able to only use the last joint of my thumb to actuate it. Perhaps working closely with a competent tech on such a customization might work out, but I don't know if I'm willing to gamble perhaps up to another grand to find out.

And don't get me started on trying to find a mouthpiece that won't wobble in the receiver.

It's one of my favorite bass trombones ever made, I just wish I could hold it up to my face.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:37 pm**

Strap to hold it. Teflon tape for mpc.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:39 pm**

Bach5G wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:37 pm Strap to hold it. Teflon tape for mpc.

Lots of extra work for a design that should be good in the first place!

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:25 pm**

Bach5G wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:37 pm Strap to hold it. Teflon tape for mpc.

Yeah, I spent some time with a couple different strap options. Comfort level increased, but unfortunately didn't solve the problem of where my hand contacts the brace making the horn jump around when using the thumb trigger.

I know teflon tape works, but I don't like messing with it. If that was the only issue, I would have however. I also picked up a NOS 6B slide from the Eastlake factory several years ago to see if an unmolested receiver would get along better with the standard Morse taper shank, but no - it didn't. I was able to acquire a couple Benge bass mouthpieces which fit perfectly...but sadly, I wasn't a good match for them either.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:30 pm**

bassclef wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:25 pmYeah, I spent some time with a couple different strap options. Comfort level increased, but unfortunately didn't solve the problem of where my hand contacts the brace making the horn jump around when using the thumb trigger.

Move the brace.

Not a simple mod, but there's techs that can do it. If you truly love the sound of a DG, it might be worth the effort.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:35 pm**

2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:38 pm That is not the way that George McCracken designed it !

The linkage and paddles have zero effect on how a horn plays, so it's not affecting the design at all. Also, if George McCracken designed the Duo Gravis today, you can bet it would have split triggers. Progress.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:16 pm**

When you take a musical instrument [the bass trombone] that is well known for causing physical distress among its practitioners, it seems that a design that removes one of the strongest fingers from its role in supporting the instrument and re-assigning it to a non-supporting role undermines any design's legitimacy. This is especially true when other practical methods are available. I once owned a Holton 169 with the "Glantz" trigger setup. People who never owned one nor have ever even seen one have given it a bad rap because of something they heard, but not from personal experience. It worked well once you learned what was required to use it effectively. Note the considerable interest on TTF in items such as the Ax Handle, ErgoBone, Neotech Support, Rath Support, Hagmann Support, Curtis Support, and the Yeo grip. Am I missing something here or are instruments simply too damned heavy for the average person to support without the use of one of these cleverly designed aids ? I've mentioned before how the toll of this overburdening weight can end a playing career. Ask me how I know. To make the proclamation that "split" triggers are the only or the best or the most progressive way to solve the problem misses the fact that the Glantz setup and the Duo Gravis "stacked" trigger setup are used by many players with great satisfaction. And those players appreciate the careful design towards a specific aim that are incorporated into the instruments they cherish. I maintain that the advent of split triggers has caused far more damage to their players that any other arrangement with which I've been acquainted. I now own a carbon fiber Butler C12 with a weight about half that of other instruments I've owned. I wish I'd owned one 20 years ago ! It does have a split trigger arrangement, but with such a light weight to manage, the split trigger arrangement poses no problem. So, there you have it ---- either a lighter burden or a firmer grip.
If any tenor players read this and have complaints about supporting their instruments, as I know many do, I ask them to weep for their brethren, the BASS trombonists [especially if they are saddled with split triggers].

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:19 pm**

2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:16 pm Note the considerable interest on TTF in items such as the Ax Handle, ErgoBone, Neotech Support, Rath Support, Hagmann Support, Curtis Support, and the Yeo grip. Am I missing something here or are instruments simply too damned heavy for the average person to support without the use of one of these cleverly designed aids ?

I'd say that we're lucky those things came around. Old horns are no easier to hold up, even if they are slightly lighter on average. The least ergonomic instruments I've ever used were a 70H, a Duo Gravis (unmodified), and an Olds S-22.

Celebrate the grip aids and the advances in ergonomics!

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:37 pm**

2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:16 pm When you take a musical instrument [the bass trombone] that is well known for causing physical distress among its practitioners,...

One of my biggest complaints about doubling on bass has been the weight. I've got a neck injury which mainly affects my left arm, and holding up a horn for more than 5 minutes at a time is a painful chore.

I tried an original DG, and just could not get the hang of the double thumb lever thing. I've always wanted to try a glantz bar, but never have. As a bit of an outsider, I think the split levers come from some of the added dexterity you need to jump in and out of the second trigger, and the ability to use it independent of the F trigger. The other mechanisms might have been ok for dependent horns, but not so much for independent. Bass bone parts in the last 60 years I think require a lot more traffic in the single and double valve ranges, and with independent setups becoming dominant, more people are using that second valve independently of the first. I can't imagine trying to use the saxophone-ish roller setup on an original 62h to do that kind of playing. A DG double thumb thing was very awkward and required a double jointed thumb. A glantz bar with a slider on the bar might work.

As far as using the middle finger to hold up the horn, yeah, losing the strength of that finger just to press a lever now and then seems crazy, and is really why all of those grip gadgets had to be invented. Or you could look at it another way, all of those grip gadgets freed up the middle finger for second valve lever duty.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:57 pm**

As someone who's spent time on split triggers, the Duo Gravis, and a Holton with a Glantz bar, the idea that split triggers are the worst setup of those options is...unique. To say the least.

Are split triggers perfect? Oh, definitely not. But there's a very good reason that all modern bass trombones are made that way (and why many older instruments are converted). I think it's fair to postulate that the manufacturers, and the vast majority of players, aren't wrong.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:23 pm**

One other solution to the double valve was having the two valves side-by-side (facing each other). In one iteration the 2nd valve actually pressed the 1st, which pretty much requires its use being dependent. In another version there were rollers to facilitate moving from one valve to the other or both. This particular setup never caught on.

There was also a special setup called the Haynor Grip where you placed the instrument across your palm and the two paddles were on opposite sides of the neckpipe operated by your thumb and as many of your fingers as you wished. The Haynor grip was in theory a good idea, but the left hand position tended to create problems of its own.

Posted: **Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:39 pm**

All this conversation about the bad ergonomics, weight, and discomfort of double-valve bass trombones sure makes me (an aging, sore-shouldered trombonist) glad that I have stuck with a single-valve bass trombone. I like it a lot, and may actually be able to play it for several more years before I hang up all my trombones.

Posted: **Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:53 am**

Bass Trombonists have evolved their technique far beyond anything possible with either the Glantz bar, or the duo-gravis levers. Dependant double basses are "much" more nimble with split levers than either of those other systems.

Posted: **Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:49 am**

2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:16 pm When you take a musical instrument [the bass trombone] that is well known for causing physical distress among its practitioners, it seems that a design that removes one of the strongest fingers from its role in supporting the instrument and re-assigning it to a non-supporting role undermines any design's legitimacy. This is especially true when other practical methods are available. I once owned a Holton 169 with the "Glantz" trigger setup. People who never owned one nor have ever even seen one have given it a bad rap because of something they heard, but not from personal experience. It worked well once you learned what was required to use it effectively.

Not speaking from anything I heard, but from personal experience with the Glantz bar that came on my 180. It's an awful, nearly unusable system that forces the thumb out at a painful angle. I have nerve damage in my left ulnar which specifically affects the pinky and ring fingers, and I would still prefer the additional stress put on those fingers by holding a split trigger bass with no grip aid over returning to Glantz.

Posted: **Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:08 pm**

"I have nerve damage in my left ulnar which specifically affects the pinky and ring fingers, and I would still prefer the additional stress put on those fingers by holding a split trigger bass with no grip aid over returning to Glantz."

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why they make chocolate AND vanilla !

Posted: **Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:12 pm**

2bobone wrote: ↑Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:08 pm
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why they make chocolate AND vanilla !

I’ll take a 6B with a Giddings Chocolatero mouthpiece. Oh, and could I have side of Glantz bar, please? I believe it will pair well with the espresso leather grips.

Posted: **Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:25 pm**

2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:16 pm When you take a musical instrument [the bass trombone] that is well known for causing physical distress among its practitioners, it seems that a design that removes one of the strongest fingers from its role in supporting the instrument and re-assigning it to a non-supporting role undermines any design's legitimacy. This is especially true when other practical methods are available. I once owned a Holton 169 with the "Glantz" trigger setup. People who never owned one nor have ever even seen one have given it a bad rap because of something they heard, but not from personal experience. It worked well once you learned what was required to use it effectively. Note the considerable interest on TTF in items such as the Ax Handle, ErgoBone, Neotech Support, Rath Support, Hagmann Support, Curtis Support, and the Yeo grip. Am I missing something here or are instruments simply too damned heavy for the average person to support without the use of one of these cleverly designed aids ? I've mentioned before how the toll of this overburdening weight can end a playing career. Ask me how I know. To make the proclamation that "split" triggers are the only or the best or the most progressive way to solve the problem misses the fact that the Glantz setup and the Duo Gravis "stacked" trigger setup are used by many players with great satisfaction. And those players appreciate the careful design towards a specific aim that are incorporated into the instruments they cherish. I maintain that the advent of split triggers has caused far more damage to their players that any other arrangement with which I've been acquainted. I now own a carbon fiber Butler C12 with a weight about half that of other instruments I've owned. I wish I'd owned one 20 years ago ! It does have a split trigger arrangement, but with such a light weight to manage, the split trigger arrangement poses no problem. So, there you have it ---- either a lighter burden or a firmer grip.
If any tenor players read this and have complaints about supporting their instruments, as I know many do, I ask them to weep for their brethren, the BASS trombonists [especially if they are saddled with split triggers].

As someone who owns 2 Tr 180s that had Glantz bars I CAN tell you from personal experience that it killed me to play them . My split triggers cause no problem at all and I've never had an issue holding the instruments. Also owned a Sterling Silver Duo Gravis and a yellow brass version. My issue was reaching around the main crossbar to play. Got rid of them.
Maybe I'm lucky that I've had zero issues. Maybe something else. But for me the Glantz Bars ended up in the spare parts bin many moons ago.

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