TromboneChat

I have several s.s.leadpipes and have also played a Sterling silver bell extensively. I still have difficulties defining the differences compared to the brass alloys.
Using words to describe differences in overtones is of course problematic. But words are important.
For the brasses there seems to be a general consensus about the descriptions.
I looked up some industry definitions for silver:

Shires: sterling silver*†—strong fundamental and presence of sound with clean, simple overtone presentation, clear attack (can lack warmth and brilliance)
Edwards: Using sterling silver gives players another dimension of sound and response for their trombones.
Brass ark: amazing full bodied sound with rich overtones, clarity and projection, a unique and solid core with amazing feedback on your face.
Mk Drawing&bending: Very warm, elegant core sound with enhanced overtones throughout the entire range…GREAT PROJECTION AND WILL LIGHT UP WHEN PUSHED.
Rath: Bronze and Sterling silver a darker, denser sound quality.

They don’t contradict each other but the wording is far from being as clearly defined as for brass
Do you have any good descriptions from your experiences?

Writing about music (or material changes to sound) is like dancing about arcitechture.

Ya just got play stuff and figure it out, IMO.

I know what my silver bass leadpipe does for me, but can I out that into meaningful words? Not really.

Burgerbob is right on the money.

Also, the effect of sterling silver on a leadpipe is DIFFERENT from the effect of sterling silver on the bell.

BGuttman wrote, “ . . . the effect of sterling silver is different. . .”

Would you care to elaborate, Bruce?

It depends greatly on how the material is heat treated, work hardened, quenched, annealed, etc. Sterling has a hardness of 71 to 140 (vickers). Yellow brass is between 80 and 135 (vickers), so there is some overlap. And then there is the difference in density. Brass is ~8.7 g/cm^3 and sterling is ~10.4 g/cm^3.

So because of the density difference, with all other things being equal, the sterling will have generally lower natural frequencies, which will be perceived as a darker tone. But... design differences, manufacturing differences, the horn the bell is built into and other factors can change that. So you really can't say much that matters about the difference between silver and brass bells except that Silver is denser, and more expensive.

I played a sterling 3b that was unplayably nose heavy and darker sound than I wanted it to be.

It's like anything else. Some people swear by it, and some people don't. You gotta play the horn.

Also, the effect of sterling silver on a leadpipe is DIFFERENT from the effect of sterling silver on the bell.


No. It isn't. Materials don't change how they contribute to the sound because of where they are on the horn. The same characteristics are there, just perhaps in different "quantity".

I have a Edwards sterling bell. The horn is my favorite. The sound is complex, rich and the harmonics seem evenly distributed low to high. The sound is consistent from soft to crazy loud.

They only issue is, most directors want a little edge on the attack when playing the loud stuff. I use a brass Edwards bell for symphony and concert band. I use the sterling bell for softer symphony.

I love that bell.

Biggest difference I’ve noticed is the evenness of sound throughout both the registers and the dynamics. I can play the full range of the instrument and any volume and it is even and doesn’t become too crass/splatty/brazen.

My .02 from playing a bach 16 sterling plus, king 2b silvertone, 3b silversonic, and my current BAC fine silver bell (#6 shape, which I think parallels the Williams flares?).

Maybe, but probably not, worth noting that “fine silver” and “sterling silver plus” are the same material, which is 99+% pure, electroformed silver. Not sure exactly how it changes the sound from normal sterling because I haven’t done a side by side comparison. My BAC also has a screw bell so I’m sure that messes with projection to a degree.

Maybe, but probably not, worth noting that “fine silver” and “sterling silver plus” are the same material, which is 99+% pure, electroformed silver. Not sure exactly how it changes the sound from normal sterling because I haven’t done a side by side comparison. My BAC also has a screw bell so I’m sure that messes with projection to a degree.

Sterling is only 92.5% silver. The rest is zinc, copper, nickel, boron, tin, indium. Pure silver (or fine silver - 99.9% pure) is too soft to be used for real parts. You can't electroform or electroplate sterling silver, because it is an alloy - a combination of elements. Electro processing only results in pure silver, which is again too soft to use. You could electroplate over a brass or nickel bell, but that would just be silver plate. There are a lot of places (mostly jewelry sites) on the internet that claim you can electroform sterling, but I don't believe its possible. If it is sterling, it is from a sheet. If it is electroformed, it is pure with maybe a base form used as a mandrel.

I don't know what you mean when you say pure silver is "too soft to be used for real parts", because Bach does use it for bells. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... nP2SUV6G3O. Are you perhaps getting thrown off by them incorrectly using the word sterling? They say the material is more than 99% silver.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:05 pm I don't know what you mean when you say pure silver is "too soft to be used for real parts", because Bach does use it for bells. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... nP2SUV6G3O. Are you perhaps getting thrown off by them incorrectly using the word sterling? They say the material is more than 99% silver.

The marketing material calls it Sterling Plus, and says it's 99.9% pure silver. That's Fine Silver, not Sterling. Why would they put Sterling in the name if Sterling is a lower grade? There's got to be a mistake there somewhere. I don't really trust marketing when it comes to technical specs. The reason that the Sterling alloy exists is to make silver stiffer as a material and more practical. Many design guides (for jewelry) say that pure silver is too soft. But then gold is softer than silver, and gold is often alloyed with something else as well to make it wear longer.

Note: you can plate alloys. I used to plate an alloy of tin and lead on circuit boards. I don't have access to my Plating Handbook and can't check whether there's a formula for plating sterling silver (92.5%) but there could be. Conn used Electroforming to make pure copper bells and Bach used electroforming with pure silver. Silver is very soft compared to brass or copper, but it won't sag like, say, lead. Bach has figured out how to make pure silver bells and they have been available for at least 20 years. If they were really that bad we'd have heard about that by now.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:45 pm
The marketing material calls it Sterling Plus, and says it's 99.9% pure silver. That's Fine Silver, not Sterling. Why would they put Sterling in the name if Sterling is a lower grade? There's got to be a mistake there somewhere. I don't really trust marketing when it comes to technical specs. The reason that the Sterling alloy exists is to make silver stiffer as a material and more practical. Many design guides (for jewelry) say that pure silver is too soft. But then gold is softer than silver, and gold is often alloyed with something else as well to make it wear longer.

I'm not here to discuss the effectiveness of Conn-Selmer's marketing strategy. I'm simply saying that over 99% silver is NOT "too soft for real parts", as evidenced by the fact that Bach bells are in fact made with over 99% silver. Perhaps it is too soft to be machined or otherwise formed with tools, but Bach doesn't do that. It is electroformed. I own one of those bells, and it is indeed quite viable as a trombone bell. If you're saying you think Bach is lying about the silver content of their bells, I seriously doubt that.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:17 pm ... It is electroformed. I own one of those bells, and it is indeed quite viable as a trombone bell. If you're saying you think Bach is lying about the silver content of their bells, I seriously doubt that.

Ok, if you say that's what it is, I believe you. But 99%+ is not Sterling. Electroforming is consistent with 99%+. After electroforming, the bell would need to be hardened. Coming off the mandrel it would be dead soft. Heat treat/quench could harden it up to near brass levels. I think the "too soft" thing is under certain circumstances. Processes that don't create a lot of internal stress (like casting and electroforming) produce soft parts. Work hardening (hand hammering) and heat treat/ quench can stiffen material a lot.

I didn't think quenching works to harden non-ferrous metals the same way it works with ferrous metals. I could be wrong. There was another thread where it was pointed out that electroformed bells don't come out perfectly smooth and must be worked to make smooth. That might cause hardening. Whatever process Bach uses I'm sure is kept secret. They don't actually call it a sterling silver bell; they call it a "sterling plus" bell. You can say this is bad marketing and I won't disagree, but technically they aren't claiming it is sterling silver.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:45 am I didn't think quenching works to harden non-ferrous metals the same way it works with ferrous metals. I could be wrong.

Quenching doesn't work on brass. Certain heat-hardening processes are possible with silver alloys, but not pure/'fine' silver.

There was another thread where it was pointed out that electroformed bells don't come out perfectly smooth and must be worked to make smooth. That might cause hardening. Whatever process Bach uses I'm sure is kept secret.

Yes, they must still be spun to some degree - they're not electrodepositing a wired bead - and everything gets pushed around just enough that you don't feel like you're shoving a mute into mortadella (and/or it sounds good )

If you've ever owned a Bach Sterling plus flare... The last few posts in this thread will seem familiar to your experiences with them. People note that it is way too soft! Yes, they are soft. They are not like King Silversonics or the Conn SGX horns. You look sideways at the flare and it will wrinkle. But they are electroformed, similar concept to the Coprion flares from Conn, just used a different precious metal. Yes they have to have a minor spinning and trimming operation, but they have a different physical feel to them than flares made from sheet stock. I'd say the character is a little different, too. I am curious what exactly drives that, maybe density? I don't really know. I just know that it wasn't particularly for me and it was worth enough money to somebody else that I was happy to sell it.

Cheers,
Andy

I can confirm 2 things:

1) Conn-Selmer no longer uses the electroforming process. I reached out to them a few years ago to ask if they still make them even as customs/one-offs and it took awhile to even get to someone who knew what I was talking about. Probably something to do with how soft the bells were and how painstaking/expensive the process is.

2) The late great John Duda created and spun my electroformed silver BAC bell on a mandrel. The process of electroforming at BAC is either slightly different or maybe not quite as refined/dialed-in as Conn-Selmer yet. The metal is pure but has tiny little pockets that look almost like air bubbles throughout. So small you can barely feel them, and they are about the size of a pinpoint in diameter. They mentioned it was just an effect of the electroforming process, and I did not ask many more questions about it.

TromboneSam wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:06 am I can confirm 2 things:

1) Conn-Selmer no longer uses the electroforming process. I reached out to them a few years ago to ask if they still make them even as customs/one-offs and it took awhile to even get to someone who knew what I was talking about. Probably something to do with how soft the bells were and how painstaking/expensive the process is.

Yeah, this makes sense to me. E-forming is expensive, and e-formed bells must be soft and require additional working. All that attention has got to be expensive. So this totally makes sense.

If there are little voids inside the electroformed bell it means there wasn't enough agitation in the plating bath. Little bubbles form on the surface of plated metal and normally you would agitate the bath to sweep them off. If the plating comes out rough, the bath may have been plated a bit too fast (too high an amperage or voltage) resulting in a property we used to call "burning". Since electroforming a bell would take hours, pushing the time by overvoltaging the bath would make some economic (if not quality) sense. The rough surface can be polished or spun to look normal.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:53 am If there are little voids inside the electroformed bell it means there wasn't enough agitation in the plating bath. Little bubbles form on the surface of plated metal and normally you would agitate the bath to sweep them off. If the plating comes out rough, the bath may have been plated a bit too fast (too high an amperage or voltage) resulting in a property we used to call "burning". Since electroforming a bell would take hours, pushing the time by overvoltaging the bath would make some economic (if not quality) sense. The rough surface can be polished or spun to look normal.

That all checks out. They did mention that with how thin the metal was, buffing out the imperfections would make it too thin to have any kind of structural integrity. I got a brushed finish anyway so it doesn’t make much of a difference in looks.

Sorry to hijack this thread so much. Sound quality of pure silver is similar, but different even still from sterling silver.

TromboneSam wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:06 am
1) Conn-Selmer no longer uses the electroforming process. I reached out to them a few years ago to ask if they still make them even as customs/one-offs and it took awhile to even get to someone who knew what I was talking about. Probably something to do with how soft the bells were and how painstaking/expensive the process is.

That's interesting. Silver bells are still listed in the parts catalog. I could order one right now. I guess I would either get an email saying it's not available, or they would just never send it.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:24 pm

TromboneSam wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:06 am
1) Conn-Selmer no longer uses the electroforming process. I reached out to them a few years ago to ask if they still make them even as customs/one-offs and it took awhile to even get to someone who knew what I was talking about. Probably something to do with how soft the bells were and how painstaking/expensive the process is.

That's interesting. Silver bells are still listed in the parts catalog. I could order one right now. I guess I would either get an email saying it's not available, or they would just never send it.

LoL they take payment and just indefinitely process the order.

I get the sense that they are trying, but are maybe understaffed and overwhelmed by the sheer volume of parts that exist. And I imagine that parts sales aren't their biggest money maker and isn't going to get top priority.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:24 pm

TromboneSam wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:06 am
1) Conn-Selmer no longer uses the electroforming process [...]

That's interesting. Silver bells are still listed in the parts catalog. I could order one right now.

This is just a guess ... but I doubt C-S ever did. Anderson Plating (which, for those who don't know, is the opposite side of the street to C-S in Elkhart) still say they can electroform bells and tubing on their website. Bach probably took the spinning onwards in house, but I can't imagine they set up their own large-scale electroforming operation literally yards from a contractor.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:37 am This is just a guess ... but I doubt C-S ever did. Anderson Plating (which, for those who don't know, is the opposite side of the street to C-S in Elkhart) still say they can electroform bells and tubing on their website. Bach probably took the spinning onwards in house, but I can't imagine they set up their own large-scale electroforming operation literally yards from a contractor.

Correct. To give first hand evidence... they were plated up at Anderson and brought back over the street for finishing (trimming, bell stamp, buff, lacquer etc..). I saw some of them being made when I went in the back door of Anderson in the early '90s with Cliff Ferree. We also went in the back door of the Bach and Blessing plants that day... good times. Only got shooed out of one factory.

Cheers,
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:51 am We also went in the back door of the Bach and Blessing plants that day... good times. Only got shooed out of one factory.

Fun! I hope it was Blessing. "We admit it, gentlemen - we came to copy your copies"

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:24 pm

TromboneSam wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:06 am
1) Conn-Selmer no longer uses the electroforming process. I reached out to them a few years ago to ask if they still make them even as customs/one-offs and it took awhile to even get to someone who knew what I was talking about. Probably something to do with how soft the bells were and how painstaking/expensive the process is.

That's interesting. Silver bells are still listed in the parts catalog. I could order one right now. I guess I would either get an email saying it's not available, or they would just never send it.

Sterling silver plus bells or does it say just sterling silver? I know they have offered both historically.

King were the ones who offered sterling silver bells initially. At one point Conn and Bach offered them as a custom option. When Anderson started electroforming silver, Conn then offered the SGX (nearly pure silver) and Bach offered the Sterling Plus (nearly pure silver). Note that pure silver dents easily, but will not sag. Sterling silver (92.5% silver, balance mostly copper) is a bit more sturdy.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:02 pm Note that pure silver dents easily, but will not sag. Sterling silver (92.5% silver, balance mostly copper) is a bit more sturdy.

Can you elaborate on the not sagging thing?

TromboneSam wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:40 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:24 pm
That's interesting. Silver bells are still listed in the parts catalog. I could order one right now. I guess I would either get an email saying it's not available, or they would just never send it.

Sterling silver plus bells or does it say just sterling silver? I know they have offered both historically.

It says sterling silver but I would assume they meant sterling plus.

TromboneSam wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:12 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:02 pm Note that pure silver dents easily, but will not sag. Sterling silver (92.5% silver, balance mostly copper) is a bit more sturdy.

Can you elaborate on the not sagging thing?

Everybody is mentioning that pure silver is too soft to be a bell material. A pure silver bell may dent easier than brass, but it is rigid enough that it won't deform as you hold it in playing position. A lead bell would actually droop and deform.

With regard to your other post, sterling silver is available in sheet form and can be formed into bells the usual way. This is something HN White (King) discovered in the 1920s. It was a marketing angle as well as a slightly different sound character. Now Rath and Shires (at the very least) will offer sterling silver bells. I don't know if pure silver is available in sheet form. Commercial electroplaters can electroform pure silver (but you need mandrels to do it, and as far as I know only Anderson Plating has them.