TromboneChat

Posted: **Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:03 pm**

Hi

I play Bass trom in a local swing band and the band leader has made up a load of those lap-level music stands for everyone (you know what I mean... all the old swing bands had them).

I can't for the life of me work out how to position myself and my 'bone so I can actually read the music AND point forwards to play at the same time. Other than committing the whole pad to memory I have no idea what to do.

How do any of you guys cope with this?

Posted: **Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:15 pm**

samopn wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:03 pm Hi
How do any of you guys cope with this?

Our trombone section won't use them - we leave those for the sax section. As you noted, it's very difficult to use those low stands and play the trombone - especially for us old guys with bifocals or progressive lenses.

Posted: **Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:51 pm**

I hate those things with a passion. There are actually three heights for them -- and the trombones generally get the lowest ones. I used to try to get the medium height one (the "sax" height). There is also a tall one for standing trumpets.

What I used to do is read between the bell and slide over the bell brace. It became VERY uncomfortable when I started using multifocal glasses, though. I really appreciate when we don't have to use them. Maybe have only the saxes on the Fronts -- at least they can read from them without too much discomfort.

Posted: **Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:21 pm**

They make you play into the floor, if you no longer have 20yo eyes. Or you're the only guy in the section bell front if for some reason you can see okay.

I fold them up and hide them when I find them in front of me, and put up a stand for music where I can see it, up and to the right with the bell out front and clear.

Posted: **Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:33 pm**

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:21 pm They make you play into the floor, if you no longer have 20yo eyes.

I fold them up and hide them when I find them in front of me, and put up a stand for music where I can see it, up and to the right with the bell out front and clear.

Posted: **Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:58 pm**

I'm not suggesting anyone do this but... it is possible to prescribe eyeglasses with "prism".

I'm not suggesting that you might use this parameter, intended to compensate for eye misalignment, to create a pair of glasses that would allow you to peer more downward than your eyes are comfortably aimed.

I'm definitely not suggesting that you read this page that explains how eyeglass prescriptions are notated

And I'm absolutely not suggesting that you order a pair of eyeglasses with such a "prism" added, from one of the internet eyeglass dispensers as part of a cheap experiment to see if such an aid might be useful.

Because it would be wrong for me to suggest such a thing.

Posted: **Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:38 pm**

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:58 pm I'm not suggesting anyone do this but... it is possible to prescribe eyeglasses with "prism".

I'm not suggesting that you might use this parameter, intended to compensate for eye misalignment, to create a pair of glasses that would allow you to peer more downward than your eyes are comfortably aimed.

I'm definitely not suggesting that you read this page that explains how eyeglass prescriptions are notated

And I'm absolutely not suggesting that you order a pair of eyeglasses with such a "prism" added, from one of the internet eyeglass dispensers as part of a cheap experiment to see if such an aid might be useful.

Because it would be wrong for me to suggest such a thing.

The day I am required to get a new prescription from my eye doctor (NOT free) and pay for a new pair of eyeglasses (NOT a cheap experiment) just to try playing behind a cheesy cardboard stand ... is the day I resign from that band!

Posted: **Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:27 pm**

The day I am required to get a new prescription from my eye doctor (NOT free) and pay for a new pair of eyeglasses (NOT a cheap experiment) just to try playing behind a cheesy cardboard stand ... is the day I resign from that band!

Yes, the quickest way to not solve a problem is to begin by imagining non-existent obstacles.

Posted: **Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:02 am**

There is no chance I could see to use one of those.

Maybe with a dedicated pair of monovision glasses set to focus on that distance, cheap stuff from Zinni, but maybe not even then.

I wonder if the answer is a set of virtual reality glasses, if you can focus at that distance. Since my cataract surgery I can see well enough to drive without glasses, but I can't pass the eye exam at the DMV, because you have to focus close on a reduced eye chart, and I can't do that. Artificial lenses don't work up close.

Posted: **Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:46 am**

We refused to use them. It's never a trombone player that wants them. Once they understand the practical difficulty in using them, most appreciate the fact they don't have to store and transport them to every gig. The bands I play with use them as sax stands and advertising for the group. The rest bring their own.

Posted: **Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:09 am**

I use them. One leg in and one leg out, off to the left side. It's not THAT bad. Just bad. Knowing your music certainly helps.

Posted: **Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:18 am**

There are often cutouts in the middle of the stand for stand light cords, etc. If you take the top off of a regular music stand you should be able to slide it in the opening from underneath, and then re-attach the top part of the stand, and then you can just use that to hold the music.

Posted: **Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:27 am**

I took over a big band that had them for all brass and woodwinds. Once I was in charge I left all but the sax stands at home. Never thought to try Redthunder's solution.

Posted: **Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:34 am**

Redthunder wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:18 am There are often cutouts in the middle of the stand for stand light cords, etc. If you take the top off of a regular music stand you should be able to slide it in the opening from underneath, and then re-attach the top part of the stand, and then you can just use that to hold the music.

The fronts I'm familiar with have the holes in the shelf close to the front, so the stand feet might have trouble.

I've been considering asking our bandleader if we could make holes in the middle to allow this. In our case, the band has transitioned to tablets, so one other possibility might be using boom mike stands... Hmmm.

--Andy in OKC

Posted: **Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:36 am**

JerryY wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:46 am We refused to use them. It's never a trombone player that wants them. Once they understand the practical difficulty in using them, most appreciate the fact they don't have to store and transport them to every gig. The bands I play with use them as sax stands and advertising for the group. The rest bring their own.

Posted: **Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:45 am**

timothy42b wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:02 amMaybe with a dedicated pair of monovision glasses set to focus on that distance.

THIS!
Not just for reading from fronts, but for reading music in general. Reading music with multifocal lenses is a pain. You're constantly having to shift around to keep the "sweet spot" lined up on where you are in the music.

As for fronts in general? No reason to use them unless:
1) You're using a non-standard setup where the trombones are in the front row, or
2) you're set up on risers that are tall enough that the fronts are visible.

When I read off of a front, I put the slide straight out over it and read down through the horn. Took me a while to get used to it, but it works better for me than any other solution. Just don't ask me what's going on out in front of the band...

A possible compromise is to get a bunch of "stand bibs" (like this: https://www.bandstands.co.uk/product/ez ... nd-banner/) made up that match the fronts. If you want to go cheap, you can just made them out of cardboard and glue paper onto the front of them with the band's logo printed on it.

Posted: **Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:00 am**

We only use fronts for the front row and we use fronts that don't have a build in music deck - they are designed to use whatever stand you want.

Posted: **Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:06 am**

JohnL wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:45 am
timothy42b wrote: ↑Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:02 amMaybe with a dedicated pair of monovision

A possible compromise is to get a bunch of "stand bibs" (like this: https://www.bandstands.co.uk/product/ez ... nd-banner/) made up that match the fronts. If you want to go cheap, you can just made them out of cardboard and glue paper onto the front of them with the band's logo printed on it.
I play in a Shrine big band and they have really nice cloth stand bibs. Works well for us!

Posted: **Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:11 am**

Reading up more on "prism" I'm doubting that enough prism can be ordered in eyeglasses.

Zenni says they can do prism up to "5" . The units are "prism dioptres" (not the same as "dioptre").

" a prism of 1Δ would produce 1 cm visible displacement at 100 cm, or 1 meter."

Five prism dioptres would probably not be enough to remedy the sightline problem these music stands present.

However, prisms made for laboratory experiments can be had in much stronger forms. It might well be possible to fashion a clip-on attachment for music reading purposes.

Posted: **Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:04 pm**

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:11 am Reading up more on "prism" I'm doubting that enough prism can be ordered in eyeglasses.

Zenni says they can do prism up to "5" . The units are "prism dioptres" (not the same as "dioptre").

" a prism of 1Δ would produce 1 cm visible displacement at 100 cm, or 1 meter."
Five prism dioptres would probably not be enough to remedy the sightline problem these music stands present.

However, prisms made for laboratory experiments can be had in much stronger forms. It might well be possible to fashion a clip-on attachment for music reading purposes.

My mother had a pair from when she spent a year in traction in a hospital in the '60s... think I have them somewhere around here; they let you watch a ceiling mounted TV with your head almost flat on the pillow. I think these are about 75 degrees or so. Now I really want to try reading music with them.

That said, it is a skill that can be practiced. An older bandmate stood in front of me while I was playing something, turned the stand completely flat, and pushed it up against me. Said something to the effect of 'figure it out, son.' Now, for solo work and big band work, I HATE having a stand in front of me. Makes it tough for the crowd to see and difficult to record and on and on... Takes a lot of getting used to, but I still do it even with my now 40-something eyes that can't read fine print so well. Think the person that forced me into it was in his '60s so it isn't just a young eyes only thing. But it isn't something you turn on in a day. And not something that plays nicely with bi-focals. I've long been a proponent of having reading glasses set at a known distance, but can be a pain to get right.

Cheers,
Andy

Posted: **Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:40 pm**

jbeatenbough wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:00 am We only use fronts for the front row and we use fronts that don't have a built-in music deck - they are designed to use whatever stand you want.

I love this solution.

Attractive. Functional. Less expensive than cardboard or Coroplast "lap-level" stands. Probably easier to pack and more durable too. What's not to like?

Posted: **Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:45 pm**

example of prism deflection:

Posted: **Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:03 pm**

Prisms can act either as a refractor or a reflector. The prism finder in a SLR camera is an example of a reflecting prism. You could also change direction of vision with a true reflector like a mirror. A small mirror attached to glasses angled at an angle of about 30 degrees (hinged at the top of the glasses frame) would allow you to look directly at a page around 2 feet in front of you and flat on the table by looking straight forward (note: angles are approximate).

Posted: **Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:31 pm**

instead of all the tricks (and money) to make it work, can we just get rid of the stands?

Posted: **Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:06 pm**

JerryY wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:31 pm instead of all the tricks (and money) to make it work, can we just get rid of the stands?

Or skip stands altogether, by:
• Provide each player with some sort of "virtual reality" glasses (probably only a few thousand $ each);
• Scan all the music to be played (only takes a few dozen hours to scan the entire band book);
• Feed the now-digitized charts to the fancy glasses, so the players can play their music while standing, sitting, looking at the floor or ceiling, ...
• And of course each player must also wear headphones to hear the click track and maintain the tempo;
• And perhaps add some autotune to each instrument to ensure beautiful harmony.

Posted: **Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:49 am**

Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:06 pm
JerryY wrote: ↑Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:31 pm instead of all the tricks (and money) to make it work, can we just get rid of the stands?
Or skip stands altogether, by:
• Provide each player with some sort of "virtual reality" glasses (probably only a few thousand $ each);

I'm intrigued by those glasses but don't know enough.

Will they work with people post-cataract surgery? Because with a fixed lens we can't focus close, and that screen is close to the eye. My vision is good enough without glasses to drive, but I can't pass the DMV test on that machine where you have to put your face against the screen.

Posted: **Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:42 am**

When I had my cataract surgery I had him correct my eyes to "computer distance" which is pretty close to music stand distance. I need a weak lens to get distance vision and can use a 1 Diopter for reading close. For real close work I actually have a 2.5 Diopter, but it's too strong for anything but macro work.

VR glasses will replace anything else you wear, and will probably need good vision in order to use them (i.e. contact lenses if you need any correction).

You might also want to see if you can get a larger tablet (Air Pad Pro 15", for example) which you could mount on a mic stand with a proper holder.

Doesn't change the fact that I still hate those low Fronts.

Posted: **Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:29 am**

Side subject, but since glasses have been mentioned a few times I'll chime in. I wear progressive trifocals which don't work too well for reading music on ANY stand. I got my eye doc to write a single vision prescription for arm's length focus, and took advantage of a local chain's "2 for $50 single vision glasses" deal. One of the best investments I've ever made. Makes the music much easier to read no matter what part of the glasses I'm looking through. I can still see the conductor's baton/hands moving so I can follow direction with no problem, but that his face is fuzzy is a bonus

.

Posted: **Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:26 am**

Yep, I made the mistake of wearing my progressive trifocals to practice exactly one time...lol...couldn't read jack.

I tried several over the counter reading glasses and found that a 0.75 works well for me at normal stand distance - and they only cost a few bucks a pair, so I keep a couple in my gear bag.

I sure do miss my eyes...

Posted: **Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:30 am**

The FDA has just approved an eye drop that can temporarily improve age-related near vision loss. It's called Vuity. Supposed to last for about 6 hours and improves near and intermediate vision without much impact to distance vision. Improvement is up to three lines on the eye chart and works in low light conditions.

Am I hopeful? You betcha! Before I played paying gigs to pay for fast food. Now I can use them to pay for my eye drops!

Here's a link for more info.
https://www.ophthalmologytimes.com/view ... presbyopia

--Andy in OKC

Posted: **Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:09 am**

jbeatenbough wrote: ↑Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:26 am Yep, I made the mistake of wearing my progressive trifocals to practice exactly one time...lol...couldn't read jack.

I tried several over the counter reading glasses and found that a 0.75 works well for me at normal stand distance - and they only cost a few bucks a pair, so I keep a couple in my gear bag.

I sure do miss my eyes...

An occasional band mate of mine found which 'readers' work best for him and now buys the stock out in that strength when he goes to the store so he can leave a pair in every car, music bag, coat, case, and even venue.... Never without a pair and a spare. He doesn't care what they look like, so it is also very amusing to look over and see a nice purple pair with fake pearls on the side every now and then.

Cheers,
Andy

Posted: **Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:51 am**

elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:09 am ... leave a pair in every car, music bag, coat, case, and even venue.... Never without a pair and a spare. ...
Cheers,
Andy

My strategy for music and for regular readers, too. I kept "losing" them around the house. Then I realized if I "lost" them everywhere, I would always have a pair nearby when needed. (Though sometimes their distribution gets modal in some room, then I have to lose them more randomly.)

Posted: **Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:50 am**

afugate wrote: ↑Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:30 am The FDA has just approved an eye drop that can temporarily improve age-related near vision loss. It's called Vuity. Supposed to last for about 6 hours and improves near and intermediate vision without much impact to distance vision. Improvement is up to three lines on the eye chart and works in low light conditions.

Am I hopeful? You betcha! Before I played paying gigs to pay for fast food. Now I can use them to pay for my eye drops!

This sounds really promising. But I'm sure this benefit comes at a cost.

Prescription only or OTC? Price?

Of course even with perfect vision, I'd still choose to play with a music stand that allows proper posture and vision vs. those low-level, horizontal folding stands.

Posted: **Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:57 am**

I usually only have to use the low front stands when playing in our jazz combo. I either try to set up far enough back to play with my slide inside the stand, or far enough to the left to aim just to the left of the stand. It helps that our homemade stands are light enough that I don’t really have to worry about hurting my slide if I hit the stand.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:43 pm**

samopn wrote: ↑Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:03 pm Hi

I play Bass trom in a local swing band and the band leader has made up a load of those lap-level music stands for everyone (you know what I mean... all the old swing bands had them).

I can't for the life of me work out how to position myself and my 'bone so I can actually read the music AND point forwards to play at the same time. Other than committing the whole pad to memory I have no idea what to do.

How do any of you guys cope with this?

What this bone is for, can you explain this please?

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:06 am**

What this bone is for, can you explain this please?

Err........, "bone" as in"trombone"... II'm far too lazy to type the whole word of I can get away with it.

TromboneChat

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