TromboneChat

Either I'm not finding it on the current forum list, or we don't have it?
I'd like to have a place where we can share our OWN music, that we ourself recorded (whether it is with the help of other musicians, or a solo recording, whatever it may be) so we can:
a) ask for feedback
b) share our pride 'n joy
c) get to know other playing styles, sounds, techniques and maybe even collabs?

Or is this already in existence?

There are a number of threads in Performance that show home recordings. Just recently Chat Member Savio posted a recording of him playing "Ain't Misbehaving" on bass trombone.

"Performance" and "Media" and others attract such member postings but they are ambiguous titles and also include links to other recordings or simply discussions of related topics.

Perhaps in the next universe "Performance" could be titled "Member Performances" and curated to be that, with other postings diverted to the other relevant headings.

But I'll caution the OP that feedback on these posts is usually meager to non-existent. Most postings of recitals or ensemble performances get no comment at all.

The world is awash in musicians' self-recordings, too many to pay attention to all of them.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:49 am But I'll caution the OP that feedback on these posts is usually meager to non-existent. Most postings of recitals or ensemble performances get no comment at all.

That is true, and I also think that the response would be minimal, but still I think it would be a cool platform, where people could showcase. Even though there is slim to no feedback.

Sander wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:01 am

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:49 am But I'll caution the OP that feedback on these posts is usually meager to non-existent. Most postings of recitals or ensemble performances get no comment at all.

That is true, and I also think that the response would be minimal, but still I think it would be a cool platform, where people could showcase. Even though there is slim to no feedback.

I agree, it would be great to have a platform like that. I also agree that feedback may be in short supply. Let's face it, most people are far more interested in themselves than others. Human nature is a b**ch!

This is more feedback than anything I ever got on an internet forum...

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:18 pm

Sander wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:01 am

That is true, and I also think that the response would be minimal, but still I think it would be a cool platform, where people could showcase. Even though there is slim to no feedback.

I agree, it would be great to have a platform like that. I also agree that feedback may be in short supply. Let's face it, most people are far more interested in themselves than others. Human nature is a b**ch!

That's a pretty reductive way to look at it.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:25 pm This is more feedback than anything I ever got on an internet forum...

Boris is an adept and rather succinct critic! We have a 7 year old Bengal and a 19 year old American short hair. They have grown up with all kinds of music and have very discerning tastes. Morty, the Bengal (named after Morton Feldman) likes Brahms and Schubert Lieder, Maggie, the old girl, likes really thorny stuff like Berio and Xenakis. Oddly they both love the trombone but are utterly indifferent to the piano. How does Boris take to the trombone?

=^..^=

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:26 pm

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:18 pm

I agree, it would be great to have a platform like that. I also agree that feedback may be in short supply. Let's face it, most people are far more interested in themselves than others. Human nature is a b**ch!

That's a pretty reductive way to look at it.

Perhaps, but it's also true a great deal of the time. Talk to any good psychotherapist and they'll tell you the same. As a species, Homo Sapiens are quite solipsistic...it's a built-in survival mechanism. Whether we want to admit it or not we can only see the world through our own lenses. Sure, we can be empathetic and compassionate, but even those traits get tangled up in projective identification. Don't get me wrong, Aidan, people can be kind and concerned and really quite lovely to one another, but the default is to see and interpret everything through our own little, teeny experiences. It's our nature. We can't help it. That being said, I think we should all put the effort into pulling away from ourselves to listen to our colleagues and peers. However, the very second that we do, we start to project inward and ask "what does this mean to me," or "how wonderful this makes me feel," or "I love this,"etc. I wasn't trying to be nihilistic, I'm just addicted to reality.

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:09 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:26 pm

That's a pretty reductive way to look at it.

Perhaps, but it's also true a great deal of the time. Talk to any good psychotherapist and they'll tell you the same. As a species, Homo Sapiens are quite solipsistic...it's a built-in survival mechanism. Whether we want to admit it or not we can only see the world through our own lenses. Sure, we can be empathetic and compassionate, but even those traits get tangled up in projective identification. Don't get me wrong, Aidan, people can be kind and concerned and really quite lovely to one another, but the default is to see and interpret everything through our own little, teeny experiences. It's our nature. We can't help it. That being said, I think we should all put the effort into pulling away from ourselves to listen to our colleagues and peers. However, the very second that we do, we start to project inward and ask "what does this mean to me," or "how wonderful this makes me feel," or "I love this,"etc. I wasn't trying to be nihilistic, I'm just addicted to reality.

Again, I'd say it's still reductive. I refrain from posting my playing (and from giving feedback) for a variety of reasons.

I don't know, people here bag on videos that the best trombonists on the world have recorded -- it just might not be the right crowd to put up your stuff for comment. Most of the time it's just abject indifference.

I'd be all for it but it seems like people would much rather talk about boring stuff like metal % rather than music and getting better.

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:51 pm How does Boris take to the trombone?

=^..^=

For many years he would up and run if I even put something on the music stand.

But in his later years, Boris (after The Spider) would stick around and howl in between phrases.

"rarrrrrrrrr....."

I'd say, "The door is open, you can leave anytime you want," but he'd stay and vocalise.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:42 pm

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:51 pm How does Boris take to the trombone?

=^..^=

For many years he would up and run if I even put something on the music stand.

But in his later years, Boris (after The Spider) would stick around and howl in between phrases.


"rarrrrrrrrr....."

I'd say, "The door is open, you can leave anytime you want," but he'd stay and vocalise.

Good kitty

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:34 pm

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:09 pm

Perhaps, but it's also true a great deal of the time. Talk to any good psychotherapist and they'll tell you the same. As a species, Homo Sapiens are quite solipsistic...it's a built-in survival mechanism. Whether we want to admit it or not we can only see the world through our own lenses. Sure, we can be empathetic and compassionate, but even those traits get tangled up in projective identification. Don't get me wrong, Aidan, people can be kind and concerned and really quite lovely to one another, but the default is to see and interpret everything through our own little, teeny experiences. It's our nature. We can't help it. That being said, I think we should all put the effort into pulling away from ourselves to listen to our colleagues and peers. However, the very second that we do, we start to project inward and ask "what does this mean to me," or "how wonderful this makes me feel," or "I love this,"etc. I wasn't trying to be nihilistic, I'm just addicted to reality.

Again, I'd say it's still reductive. I refrain from posting my playing (and from giving feedback) for a variety of reasons.

K

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:20 pm I don't know, people here bag on videos that the best trombonists on the world have recorded -- it just might not be the right crowd to put up your stuff for comment. Most of the time it's just abject indifference.

I'd be all for it but it seems like people would much rather talk about boring stuff like metal % rather than music and getting better.

And people say I’M being reductive! Just kidding Harrison, I agree with you. I guess the other thing is that this is a specific topic forum, not social media, so I’m not surprised that there’s not as much personal interaction of the kind that feedback would involve. And, I’m not sure I’d be entirely comfortable sharing my playing here, although I got some very nice feedback when I posted a link to one of my compositions. Who knows?

A-list players whose video has been brought up for consideration are rather different from actual forum members posting their own work, especially if the A-list player has proposed some prima facie absurdity.

Comments made here will not affect their careers one bit so there is little disincentive to make them.

This is not going to be a way to get a free evaluation from somebody who is skilled. Most of the A-list players would charge you for a lesson to critique your playing. Most of the rest of us are wasting your time.

And many of us were taught that if you don't have something nice to say, say nothing. Take that any way you want.

If you get a few compliments, take it for what it's worth (you'll still need 5 euros to get a cup of coffee at Starbucks).

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:48 pm
K

Exactly why some of us don't post here!

Yeah I posted a professional project I did here a while back and it produced almost no feedback. Most of it was "passive constructive" (nice story bruh). At least there was no unconstructive negative feedback. Expectations and reality are two different things. I know the project was good, I know the audio was good, and we put maybe two weeks of work into it. And it was crickets here.

Meanwhile it's humming away nicely on YouTube and getting lots of feedback.

I just don't think this is the forum for it, and pardon the pun.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:16 pm Yeah I posted a professional project I did here a while back and it produced almost no feedback. Most of it was "passive constructive" (nice story bruh). At least there was no negative feedback. Expectations and reality are two different things. I know the project was good, I know the audio was good, and we put maybe two weeks of work into it. And it was crickets here.

Meanwhile it's humming away nicely on YouTube and getting lots of feedback.

I just don't think this is the forum for it, and pardon the pun.

Agreed. I appreciate your work on YouTube. It’s good stuff and very generous of you. One of the things that I’ve learned over the years since the beginning of the Internet is to be cautious and know your audience. I went out on a limb posting one of my compositions because I honestly wanted feedback about the suggestion from a publisher that I also arrange the piece for trombone choir (it’s for horn choir). I got some very good feedback, not a lot, but it was from people I’ve come to enjoy on the forum and I appreciated it. I wouldn’t post any of my other works here because they have little to do with the trombone so there’s no reason to. I use other venues for that.

I’m curious about what project of yours you’re talking about. Can you share a link to it (send it privately if you want).

Sure, just sent it to you. Just want to clarify that my sorry state of a YouTube channel is definitely not professional by any stretch, and not the project I was referring to. Glad you like the channel though, and I'm going to do more, but I just can't get my hands on the gear, knowledge, and time I need to do my ideas justice. I've got the mics and audio gear to get started, a terrible camera, and I need more motivation. Not opening a detached home means I can't build a studio, and it takes FOREVER to set up for a video, and FOREVER to tear down, and I don't even have good gear yet. Going it alone is very difficult for me as I am, but I learn a LOT every video. Right now I'm back in it, studying how to EQ reverb.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:55 pm Sure, just sent it to you.

Wow Harrison, I hardly know where to start! It’s absolutely beautiful…the piece, the playing, the production, and the sentiment! It brought me close to tears. Why this didn’t get rave reviews when you first posted it is beyond me! This is exactly the kind of work that should be presented here. As the Executive Producer for a multimedia production company based in NYC and Munich i know exactly what goes into a production like this. It’s beautifully done. Also, I want to find out more about Steven Verhelst. As a fellow composer I really appreciate his writing. It’s gorgeous. Hats off, man, it’s a very fine piece of work!

There is so much self-serving crap on YouTube, so when something this meaningful comes along it’s a real joy!

Uh oh! Before I get on anyone's bad side, I will reemphasize that the feedback that I did get was positive, and I wasn't asking for feedback to begin with when I posted it. That was not a project that was only my work, and I only did the audio for it. I was happy with everyone's comments!

But I used the example to say that even with a project with a lot of time and effort, the feedback here will often be sparse.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:47 am Uh oh! Before I get on anyone's bad side, I will reemphasize that the feedback that I did get was positive, and I wasn't asking for feedback to begin with when I posted it. That was not a project that was only my work, and I only did the audio for it. I was happy with everyone's comments!

But I used the example to say that even with a project with a lot of time and effort, the feedback here will often be sparse.

Understood. I just watched it a second time. I really love it!

The piece came out only a couple of months after the Fukushima disaster. It swarmed through the trombone community. It is available in a wide variety of formats, including brass quintet, trio, and duet as well as the trombone quartet. A wonderful tribute to the people who suffered from the disaster and those who helped.

Somehow this topic exploded when cats were mentioned... I think that's enough feedback for now.
Just look up Smooth Summer Sessions on YouTube and I'll rest my case haaha

I posted some stuff that prompted some decent discussion. The discussion wasn't so much about my playing, more about horns or recording techniques. I was kind of shy to post at first, seeing how critical people can be of professionals on professional recordings. But as long as you're realistic and humble about it, and maybe a bit self-deprecating, I think people won't be cruel.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22088
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18513

In some ways I did want to get some comments even if just to verify what I heard, like "your time isn't even", or "your intonation varies", or "your attacks are harsh", but if you want that kind of comment, get a teacher.

I agree that it's fun to create and post your own recordings, and in some cases, I even post my own arrangements (crazy little thing called love on the second link was one I arranged). But the process of actual recording and post processing to make it sound good is kind of intimidating, and to be honest, more than I want to get involved in.

Sander wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:25 am Somehow this topic exploded when cats were mentioned... I think that's enough feedback for now.
Just look up Smooth Summer Sessions on YouTube and I'll rest my case haaha

It looks like there are two different sources for “Smooth Summer Sessions.” One is a smaller group playing in the woods. The other is audio with no video of a larger brass ensemble. Which is yours? See, I looked it up and listened! We don’t all ignore these kind of posts!

PS, i learned years ago that if you want a response on social media, post cat pics! =^..^=

Comments you can act on are hard to come by.

At both the colleges I went to there was a weekly mock recital hour where various students would play their solos and the audience of teachers and students would comment. Potentially valuable but the comments were always the vaguest of banalities. It was like a ritual...

Be sure to show confidence
Watch your intonation
Watch your phrasing



And the player would always vigorously nod his head in agreement as if those were game-changing revelations.

Even juries were pretty much worthless for feedback. I'd spend the whole semester putting a solo together, play for a panel of six ostensible experts and get comments like "nice job" or "tempo!"



Maybe I wasn't worth a complete sentence. That is very possible.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:36 am Comments you can act on are hard to come by.

At both the colleges I went to there was a weekly mock recital hour where various students would play their solos and the audience of teachers and students would comment. Potentially valuable but the comments were always the vaguest of banalities. It was like a ritual...

Be sure to show confidence
Watch your intonation
Watch your phrasing



And the player would always vigorously nod his head in agreement as if those were game-changing revelations.

Even juries were pretty much worthless for feedback. I'd spend the whole semester putting a solo together, play for a panel of six ostensible experts and get comments like "nice job" or "tempo!"



Maybe I wasn't worth a complete sentence. That is very possible.

Sorry to hear that. That sucks! We got great verbal and written feedback from jurists. It was really helpful.

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:20 am I’m reposting the link because people should pay attention when something this worthwhile comes along! This is why we love music, right?!

Harrison, I just watched this again, and enjoyed it as much (and was similarly moved) as the first few times I experienced it several months ago.

I hope this bond between Japan and the United States is never broken - and that we can create / sustain similar relationships with other countries.

I think it depends a lot on the why? If there will be a fruitful experience to post something here.

Personally I have posted a few times and got a lot of comments, but my goal with posting a video or audio here isn't to show "how good a player" I' am. To me "to be a show off" has nothing to do with it. When I posted I remember I encouraged any comment that was placed "to help" me become a better player and anyone with an opinion in that spirit was welcome to comment.

I think that made the difference. It was a few years since I did that. I put effords in those recordings and tried to play as well as I could and after I got feedback I tried to improve according to the criticism and posted new recordings and awaited more comments. I remember that to be positive experience for me. I did learn a few things and got a few tips that did help me become a better player.

The "why?" was something that opened up those discussions, and comments from Doug and Basbasun and Savio and others helped the discussion evolve in a positive way.

I can see a few possible reasons to post here:
1. You want positive feedback to boost your ego
2. You want to sell records or think it will result in some economic outcome.
3. You truly want help because you long to be a better player both technically and musically.
4. You need to explain something about (your) technique or a special technique that can not be said in writing. It needs a video to explain and get the message through.
5. You want to show a special odd instrument for educational reasons.
6. You want to present yourself in music to everybody at the forum to let people know your skill-level, because you believe it could help in certain discussions where experience is important.
7. You want to inspire others because you have found out something about your playing that you want to discuss and share (and discuss) for educational reasons.
8. You want to share a concert you did just because that concert meant a lot to you

There are probably more reasons. Personally I'm not very interested in 1 and 2 on this list but all the others are fine with me.

/Tom

So, for the OP, what if there was a place here to post recorded projects, but the responses had to generally follow a format of starting with one thing that you liked about the video, and why, and one thing that you think could have been better, and why. Maybe we could keep it focused on improving and sustaining, people would get a lot out of it?

Giving good, meaningful feedback is a skill that can be learned. For a year I taught English at a private school in Brooklyn and used a few books by a British writer named Peter Elbow (yes, that’s his real name). In one of them he discusses how to give and receive meaningful feedback. The book is called “Writing With Power” and it basically shares ideas on how to write beyond the academic models, and the section on giving feedback is very valuable. Feedback needs to go beyond “I liked it,” “it’s nice,” “I don’t get it,” “it’s not my cup of tea,” etc. Also, you need to elicit the feedback you want. That’s YOUR responsibility. Tell people what you’d like and/or need from them. I got great feedback when I posted a piece I wrote for horn choir that a publisher wanted me to arrange for other brass ensembles, including trombone choir. I hated the idea but wanted to see how people here felt. I asked specifically about that and I got some very good feedback. You can’t just throw something up and say “here’s a thing I did,” and expect to get the feedback you want or need. Of course there is just sharing for sharing’s sake, where you don’t need feedback per se, but casually, and causally, invite comments about something you simply want to share and will tacitly accept extemporaneous comments. Bottom line: it’s your responsibility to ask for what you need and know your audience, and it’s the audiences responsibility to try to give feedback appropriate to what the sharer asked for. If you don’t ask for anything then whatever comes from sharing it is fair game.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:06 pm So, for the OP, what if there was a place here to post recorded projects, but the responses had to generally follow a format of starting with one thing that you liked about the video, and why, and one thing that you think could have been better, and why. Maybe we could keep it focused on improving and sustaining, people would get a lot out of it?

Harrison, that’s exactly what I was talking about in my last post. You’re right, to the extent that people sharing should ask for the kind of feedback they need. I don’t think it should ever be a prescribed format created by the forum. It needs to be the responsibility of the sharer.

I had a manager who probably had been sent to seminar where they taught him the "sandwich" feedback method.

You start with one positive comment, then the negative one you really want to make, then conclude with another positive comment. (Curiously they didn't expect anyone to sandwich a positive comment between two negative ones.)

Anyway... this got so tedious that whenever I detected that he was launching into one of his manufactured positive opening comments, I would say, "Just tell me what you want me to change. I'll do it."

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:21 pm I had a manager who probably had been sent to seminar where they taught him the "sandwich" feedback method.

You start with one positive comment, then the negative one you really want to make, then conclude with another positive comment. (Curiously they didn't expect anyone to sandwich a positive comment between two negative ones.)

Anyway... this got so tedious that whenever I detected that he was launching into one of his manufactured positive opening comments, I would say, "Just tell me what you want me to change. I'll do it."

Yeah, canned responses are to feedback what Muzak is to music.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:21 pm I had a manager who probably had been sent to seminar where they taught him the "sandwich" feedback method.

You start with one positive comment, then the negative one you really want to make, then conclude with another positive comment. (Curiously they didn't expect anyone to sandwich a positive comment between two negative ones.)

Anyway... this got so tedious that whenever I detected that he was launching into one of his manufactured positive opening comments, I would say, "Just tell me what you want me to change. I'll do it."

Yes and that also has to do with the "why?" f you have been a teacher then you are trained (by experience) to give feedback. The good feedback is frank and constructive and focus on the needs of the receiver, for him/her to evolve. Since we don't know eachother that well we need the message to be sent in an "envelope". If the envelope is beautiful and smells and looks nice the receiver knows our intentions are the best. If it is filthy and smelly we don't want to even open it to look inside. We need that nice envelope to establish good trust because no other possibility is for us to know eachother as the beeings and individuals we are. When some trust is established we know how to interpret the criticism from THAT sender.

I made a new thread about this tangent https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... 82#p158467

/Tom

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:21 pm I had a manager who probably had been sent to seminar where they taught him the "sandwich" feedback method.

You start with one positive comment, then the negative one you really want to make, then conclude with another positive comment. (Curiously they didn't expect anyone to sandwich a positive comment between two negative ones.)

Anyway... this got so tedious that whenever I detected that he was launching into one of his manufactured positive opening comments, I would say, "Just tell me what you want me to change. I'll do it."

That approach shows a serious disrespect for the person you're talking to. I get this all the time from corporate types. I'm the kind of person who takes what you say at face value, and comments like this first confuse me and then when I stop being naive I get annoyed.

Couching criticism in compliments (unless it is all honestly sincere) assumes the person is frail, immature and insecure.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:45 am Couching criticism in compliments (unless it is all honestly sincere) assumes the person is frail, immature and insecure.

It was indeed true that I had gotten to the office on time for three days in a row.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:50 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:45 am Couching criticism in compliments (unless it is all honestly sincere) assumes the person is frail, immature and insecure.

It was indeed true that I had gotten to the office on time for three days in a row.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:50 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:45 am Couching criticism in compliments (unless it is all honestly sincere) assumes the person is frail, immature and insecure.

It was indeed true that I had gotten to the office on time for three days in a row.

Okey, but that counts as three good news in my book but
the delivery of those news (criticism) packaged as one good news implies that "to be on time" three days the same week was something unexpected, and that was really bad criticism disguised. Maybe that was very exaggerated and I choose to believe it was
Was what he said badly packed because you did not evolve? Or did you? or was it unfair? I don't want to take a stand in what was said but choose to believe he was an a*h**e . Criticism is complex. Not just to handle "as a gift" but also to be able to receive properly. Maybe in this case better to just say "You need to be on time if you want to still work here" (if it was the manager). I guess that was the message. Did you evolve? Did you learn? Did you quit? That is the pedagogical question? If you did learn something for life then it turned out well and to sum all bad things; it propebly worked and turned out the best for you anyway. Think about this poor chap that was the manager he might still be that same a*h*le

/Tom

What I marveled at was that the "negative" part was usually so trivial that it hardly needed cushioning in a sandwich.

He wanted his TGAs with an alpha channel, even though there will be no transparency in the image anyway? Yeah, I guess I recall that being asked for.

But he had been to that seminar that told him to use the sandwich method, and he was going to make sandwiches!

Whenever something weird happened there was probably a seminar in it somewhere.

Why does this video look like an acid trip? Doug attended a lighting seminar!

PosauneCat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:06 am
It looks like there are two different sources for “Smooth Summer Sessions.” One is a smaller group playing in the woods. The other is audio with no video of a larger brass ensemble. Which is yours? See, I looked it up and listened! We don’t all ignore these kind of posts!

PS, i learned years ago that if you want a response on social media, post cat pics! =^..^=

Both actually,
The small group in the woods was just a lazy evening where we thought it would be cool to do some recordings. As bad as it is, I don't wanna ditch it, as it somehow is fun and shows the progression for moments to come I hope.
The home recordings is something I prefer doing, as that gives me the opportunity to really think out and play it myself.
So both are Smooth Summer Sessions, as it is a platform where anyone can chip in and I'd happily post a video of fellow musicians, to broaden the platform.