TromboneChat

I posted a recording of Joseph Serafin Alschausky from 1910/1911 on Youtube:

Someone in a Facebook discussion suggested that he might have been an upstream embouchure type. The photo in the recording is from about the same time. The mouthpiece placement and angle is suggestive. Moreover, when I try his signature mouthpiece, I have a hard time placing it with more upper lip because the rim is so wide (although the inner diameter is small). There is no way of know really his embouchure type from pictures and the recording but any speculations would be helpful.

How does a upstream player plays vibrato with the lips? Does one uses the upper lip? Unfortunately, I don‘t know many upstream players.

What do we suppose is the out-of-tune echo effect heard from about 2:10 - 2:17?

Is that him? An instrument in the band? Feedback from his amp*?

I'm struck by how bad the back-up band is. The fast passages are just a scramble of notes.





* not intended as a serious assertion

The picture, sound, and type of flexibility all definitely suggest upstream. Compare his sound to recordings of Larry Wiehe, who was upstream.

The echo effect is cool, some jazz players can do that.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:43 pm The picture, sound, and type of flexibility all definitely suggest upstream. Compare his sound to recordings of Larry Wiehe, who was upstream.

The echo effect is cool, some jazz players can do that.

Thank you very much. This information is a nice puzzle piece. Finally, I feel that I learn more about Alschausky.

I found some recordings of Larry Wiehe on youtube. Yes, indeed there is some similarity. Very interesting.

bcschipper wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:42 pm
How does a upstream player plays vibrato with the lips? Does one uses the upper lip? Unfortunately, I don‘t know many upstream players.

I'm upstream. I use the lower jaw, just like a downstream type would. It's not a lip thing.

Redthunder wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:32 pm

bcschipper wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:42 pm
How does a upstream player plays vibrato with the lips? Does one uses the upper lip? Unfortunately, I don‘t know many upstream players.

I'm upstream. I use the lower jaw, just like a downstream type would. It's not a lip thing.

Thank you for the information.

This is probably how most of the greats sound in the studio before the crossfades are applied. I joke. I joke.

Was there some multiphonics going on at 2:22? I actually liked the "harmonics" effect he gets at 2:10-2:17. Like letting a harmonic ring on a guitar string.

The sound is similar to Arthur Pryor.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:48 pm This is probably how most of the greats sound in the studio before the crossfades are applied. I joke. I joke.

Was there some multiphonics going on at 2:22? I actually liked the "harmonics" effect he gets at 2:10-2:17. Like letting a harmonic ring on a guitar string.

The sound is similar to Arthur Pryor.

I am not sure whether there is some multiphonics at 2:22. I wouldn‘t be surprised about it since any German trombone player at that time would have encountered multiphonics in Robert Müller‘s method books. The echo/harmonics effect is cool. I still need to figure out how to do this.

Yeah, the sound is far more colorful than today‘s common “ganache” sound. Compared to that time, players on a “symphonic” trombone today play essentially on a strange bass trombone with a too-small but too-thick bell. So what to expect?

bcschipper wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:03 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:48 pm This is probably how most of the greats sound in the studio before the crossfades are applied. I joke. I joke.

Was there some multiphonics going on at 2:22? I actually liked the "harmonics" effect he gets at 2:10-2:17. Like letting a harmonic ring on a guitar string.

The sound is similar to Arthur Pryor.

I am not sure whether there is some multiphonics at 2:22. I wouldn‘t be surprised about it since any German trombone player at that time would have encountered multiphonics in Robert Müller‘s method books. The echo/harmonics effect is cool. I still need to figure out how to do this.

Yeah, the sound is far more colorful than today‘s common “ganache” sound. Compared to that time, players on a “symphonic” trombone today play essentially on a strange bass trombone with a too-small but too-thick bell. So what to expect?

I can appreciate it, but my ears are a product of music from the 80s and 90s though and I don't like the thin, wavering tone on this recording or the Pryor recordings. We don't need to return to the musical style of 1910, and we don't need to stay where we are right now.

It's interesting, on both this recording and the Arthur Pryor recordings, you can hear the soloist play some arpegiated lip slurs in the cadenza/ solo section and the tone opens up to a really "modern" sound. On Pryor's blue bells recording it almost sounds like the whole recording opens up from the crackling and they pasted a modern jazz soloist with a different instrument into the recording. So, it's clear that these guys studied playing that sounds very excellent and modern to at least my ears, and then deliberately did not use that practice in 99% of their playing. The whole vibrato, wavering tone thing as a deliberate choice is not good. Singers sounded like that back then, so they were going for a singing tone.

Singers don't sound like that today, so I think we should take a cue from the past, and try to sound like singers, but the ones we hear today.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:23 am

bcschipper wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:03 am

I am not sure whether there is some multiphonics at 2:22. I wouldn‘t be surprised about it since any German trombone player at that time would have encountered multiphonics in Robert Müller‘s method books. The echo/harmonics effect is cool. I still need to figure out how to do this.

Yeah, the sound is far more colorful than today‘s common “ganache” sound. Compared to that time, players on a “symphonic” trombone today play essentially on a strange bass trombone with a too-small but too-thick bell. So what to expect?

I can appreciate it, but my ears are a product of music from the 80s and 90s though and I don't like the thin, wavering tone on this recording or the Pryor recordings. We don't need to return to the musical style of 1910, and we don't need to stay where we are right now.

It's interesting, on both this recording and the Arthur Pryor recordings, you can hear the soloist play some arpegiated lip slurs in the cadenza/ solo section and the tone opens up to a really "modern" sound. On Pryor's blue bells recording it almost sounds like the whole recording opens up from the crackling and they pasted a modern jazz soloist with a different instrument into the recording. So, it's clear that these guys studied playing that sounds very excellent and modern to at least my ears, and then deliberately did not use that practice in 99% of their playing. The whole vibrato, wavering tone thing as a deliberate choice is not good.

We do not know to what extent these recording do the real sound justice. It might have been much more difficult to capture the sound in the lower dynamic range with those methods available at that time.

I think the sound role models of trombones at that time included real bel canto singing (with the emphasis of different voices/timbre and vocal agility) as well as the expressiveness of the cello. Our sonor even clean legato style of playing Bordogni today would have probably been considered as boring at that time.

Judging tone from a mechanical recording made in 1910?

https://www.loc.gov/collections/nationa ... recording/