TromboneChat

So...

Why is it that most Miniball linkages click and clank, almost regardless of age but the Minibal linkages on both of my Greenhoe valves are as silent as the day I got them...in 2004?!?!

I'm not looking for advice on how to oil them, I am just curious if there is a difference in materials involved or what else may account for the difference.

Matthew???
Michael???

Thanks.

PE

Are all of these marked with "MINIBALL" on the side? There are various different makers of those types of linkages. My first Kanstul had MINIBALL branded joints, and has never made noise. My Second one had unbranded joints, and they are a bit louder.

Yamaha seems to make very good miniball type linkages, a I've never had noise problems with that part of the linkage.

Good point about the branding. I hadn't considered that aspect but will pay closer attention to see if I can determine a trend.

Mine was more of a general question, as I deal with lots of students that seem oblivious to the percussion section that accompanies their valve throw. I hear the clank most often on Bach and Shires rotary valves and sometimes on the axial flows that have a metal linkage. I guess they get used to it and don't even notice the noise anymore but it drives me crazy! I am usually able to quiet them for a time with heavier oils but it is a temporary fix.

I am also wondering if metal used in the middle rod can exacerbate the wear of the ball joints, i.e. minor flexing of a softer metal?

PE

Metal quality and construction accuracy of Gelenke from Germany building their Minibal is far superior to the other brands...

My Holton TR181 is very clanky.

I don't think it is the nylon linkage, I don't think it is the stop pad that halts the rotation.
I think something is less than precisely fitted about the valve axle itself.

Ellefson wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:22 amGood point about the branding. I hadn't considered that aspect but will pay closer attention to see if I can determine a trend.

Mine was more of a general question, as I deal with lots of students that seem oblivious to the percussion section that accompanies their valve throw. I hear the clank most often on Bach and Shires rotary valves and sometimes on the axial flows that have a metal linkage. I guess they get used to it and don't even notice the noise anymore but it drives me crazy! I am usually able to quiet them for a time with heavier oils but it is a temporary fix.

A lot of students unfortunately don't get into the whole oiling thing enough, which results in wear, which results in noise, and by then sometimes things can't be done to help with the slop in the linkage.

Another thing is the bumper material, which does need to be replaced periodically, as it gets hard. Some companies use a harder rubber than others.

A third problem would be that students often use much more force than necessary when actuating the valve, so all of that energy gets absorbed by the bumper and makes noise. They then may release the valve so quickly that it makes noise on the return. I used to sit next to one player who acted like the trigger was hot to touch, and after using the trigger would pull their thumb right off the pad as fast as possible.

Hello Pete!

Sent you a solution via email.

The original MINIBAL (note spelling) made by Martin Seibold in Germany is the best ball joint on the market, IMO. I don't know how many I have personally installed/used (in the 1000's) and they never disappoint. They're expensive, but they're worth it

Ellefson wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:22 am Good point about the branding. I hadn't considered that aspect but will pay closer attention to see if I can determine a trend.

Mine was more of a general question, as I deal with lots of students that seem oblivious to the percussion section that accompanies their valve throw. I hear the clank most often on Bach and Shires rotary valves and sometimes on the axial flows that have a metal linkage. I guess they get used to it and don't even notice the noise anymore but it drives me crazy! I am usually able to quiet them for a time with heavier oils but it is a temporary fix.

I am also wondering if metal used in the middle rod can exacerbate the wear of the ball joints, i.e. minor flexing of a softer metal?

PE

Being more of a general question doesn't really address your question. Miniball, the actual brand, are great. The copycats are not. I have both. Make sure they are the brand name Miniball.

Got it.

MINIBAL

Thanks, all.

PE

In linkages, I think it is all about branding. For years, I built horns with the steel ball and white nylon socket linkages made by Great Planes (hobbyist company that makes remote control plane parts) I found them to have no loss of motion (when the thumb lever moves a hundredth of an inch, the linkage moves the same amount), very smooth and quiet, and easy to replace when they wore out (I usually replaced mine about every 16-18 months if I used the horn constantly).

I eventually made the leap to the minbal-type linkages and found great variety in the quality. The generic brands would sometimes not work at all or would have a limited life span. I used a lot of the Yamaha linkages (originally a tuba part) and found that those were sensitive to trauma. Customers would bump their Yamaha linkage into a wall or remove the linkage to clean the valve and found that the slightest misalignment or altered angle would freeze up the linkage. The Minibal brand seems to be tougher and more reliable than all of the other brands. I don't find that the angles need to be perfect for the Minibals to work....it's just a very good product.

I've gone back to steel ball and white nylon linkages for the last several horns that I have made......I really like the ultra-smooth, silent action. Branding impacts quality on these as well. Great Planes nylon linkages (I still think those are the best) appear to be discontinued, so I can only find them if I get lucky. The Du-Bro brand is widely available, but I avoided them several years ago because they didn't fit as well (they were a bit loose). Fortunately, Du-Bro must have changed their product in the last year or so. I bought a batch of the Du-Bro a few months ago and they fit extremely well with no loss of motion.

I just checked and the linkage on my Greenhoe bass does in fact say Minibal and my Back 50B linkage has no marking. Greenhoe silent, Bach clanky.

I love the aftermarket linkages made by Todd Clontz, been using them on my 42B and 36B for many years 15-20? and have never had a problem. They are the steel ball and white nylon socket type. I have never even replaced the sockets, which if I remember correctly, Todd told me I can get in a hobby shop.
The old Bach linkages, to me, are preferable to the newer (late 90's onward) Bach miniball linkages. At least the old ones can be adjusted a bit, and as long as everything is clean, tight, greased and oiled, they work well and are quiet. High maintenance, yes, but not that big of a deal. However, there is a wide variation on how far the trigger has to travel - I think it has to do with the length of the piece that connects the thumb lever to the rotor.
The newer ones just clank, and nothing seems to quiet them down.

Mamaposaune wrote: ↑Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:02 pm I love the aftermarket linkages made by Todd Clontz, been using them on my 42B and 36B for many years 15-20? and have never had a problem. They are the steel ball and white nylon socket type. I have never even replaced the sockets, which if I remember correctly, Todd told me I can get in a hobby shop.

Yes Mamaposaune,

Those are the exact type of linkages that I mentioned. Super smooth and silent. Todd used the Great Planes brand of white nylon sockets and taught me how to make those linkages. The linkages I make now (I think Todd might do the same thing) are custom-made for each horn and eliminate the need for the Bach threaded lock rings. In Todd's old linkages (he sold hundreds of them through The Woodwind and The Brasswind catalog), the threaded lock rings were used so that a person could buy the linkage and install it on a Bach horn with no soldering or fabrication of parts.

I am impressed that your nylon sockets have lasted so long. I usually need to replace mine every two years or so because they wear out and the ball starts popping out of the nylon socket while playing. Then again, I usually play my horn a couple of hours a day and I do A LOT of trigger work as part of my daily routine.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:59 pm Another thing is the bumper material, which does need to be replaced periodically, as it gets hard. Some companies use a harder rubber than others.

I second this observation.

I've silenced countless clanky valves by simply removing those awful hard black rubber stop pads/bumpers found on many horns (especially Bachs) and replacing them with softer material. Being old school, I prefer to hand cut my own cork bumpers. Silicone rubber cord is a bit softer and very quiet.

I use a borescope ($20 from eBay including shipping and tax) hooked up to my phone to view the port alignment while trimming the bumpers to ensure precise alignment.

I do this on my old Bach 50 and it keeps that ball and socket quiet.
Make sure all parts are metal.
Put a glob of vaseline over the ball.
Warm it with a lighter or match just until it melts into the socket.
Wipe the excess.
Put a glob on the spring and pivot point.
Warm it with a lighter or match just until it melts into the joint.
Wipe the excess.
This will make for a nice easy valve.

I wrap the ball joints of my old Bach 42BG with Teflon tape, enough to where I can pack the sockets. Works like a charm. Quiet, quick, and zero play.

Replacing old, hardened stop bumpers with nice fresh ones can make a big difference. Also, most players under-lubricate their mechanisms.

The reason that the Greenhoe linkages are so quiet is because there's a nylon bushing that prevents the rod ends from rotating too far and contacting the screws. Without that, even the minibal linkages would click a little bit.

If noise is the biggest concern, a string linkage can't be beat!

I have several horns with metal miniballs, an old linkage Bach bass, and a Cerveny oval euphonium. I use either vaseline or old tubes of Trombonetine.

Put a big gob on the ball and socket. Warm it a little with a lighter or match so it melts in. Wipe the excess off.

I also do the same with the spring / key pivot.

It last a long time and makes it all very quiet. If the old style Bach linkage is quiet for 40 years, it must be good.

Tilt the horn so the rubber or cork does not catch any heat.