TromboneChat

I am working on infographics about bass trombone valve tunings (Bb/F/E, Bb/F/G/Eb, Bb/F/bG/bEb, Bb/F/Gb/D). I have read about the advantages of Bollinger tuning being that arpeggios and scales can be played with minimal slide movements.

However, when I draw the position chart, I notice that the slide position of Bollinger tuning is quite similar to G/Eb tuning, so much so that the G/Eb tuning can also play the arpeggios and scales that Bollinger tuning excels with similarly minimal slide movements. The G/Eb tuning even leads in playing scales using just a distance no more than 1 position difference (16 scales VS 15 scales of Bollinger tuning). My chart might have some deviation, but it checks out with my past experience on G/Eb horns.

Bollinger tuning still has slightly less slide movements (<0.5 position distance) between notes in some arpeggios.

Translation of the four rows description:
Open horn, F partial
Open horn, low Bb partial

Thumb Valve, F partial
Thumb Valve, low Bb partial

Finger Valve, F partial
Finger and Thumb Valve, F Partial

Finger Valve, Low Bb partial
Finger and Thumb Valve, Low Bb partial





That leads to my question: what exactly is the advantage of Bollinger tuning over G/Eb tuning?

Thank you very much for your answer.

Wouldn't a more apt comparison be between Bb/F/Gb/D tuning? That is far more common these days among basses. Blair Bollinger himself outlines the advantages of the system in a few videos. It definitely seems well-suited to orchestral bass trombone parts, where there's quite a bit of 3rd trombone work to be done in the staff. You gain a lot of facility in the cash register and give up... a low A in TT7th?

paulyg wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:47 am Wouldn't a more apt comparison be between Bb/F/Gb/D tuning? That is far more common these days among basses. Blair Bollinger himself outlines the advantages of the system in a few videos. It definitely seems well-suited to orchestral bass trombone parts, where there's quite a bit of 3rd trombone work to be done in the staff. You gain a lot of facility in the cash register and give up... a low A in TT7th?

For Bb/F/Gb/D tuning the advantage is clear: as far as I look for the Gb/D tuning has no arpeggio/scale with minimal slide available, but trade off with usable D in 1st position and the ability to play chromatically from pedal B upward wit only 5.5 positions (which a lazy guy such as I sees it as an advantage ). If there are other advantages/disadvantages please help advise so I can put in the infographics.

But I think there have to be some reasons Mr.Bollinger invented the system, otherwise why doesn't he just use G/Eb tuning?

Image URLs are accessible through html quoting, but aren't visible here...

Anyway, 'advantage' is a matter of opinion, but there are more differences than your theoretical charts acknowledge. You really have to try it, see where things really center on your horn, and see what you prefer mentally and ergonomically. See here for a 'real world messy' chart...

2nd and 3rd partials aren't in tune in the same place. The degree of difference varies from horn to horn (and between open and individual valves), but it's always a factor. And 1st position might be tweakable if you play off the bumpers, but not if you don't. And so on.

So, for example, Bollinger may give you 2nd valve D-C#-C-B more-or-less in line with the open horn positions an octave above (D marginally further in, C# and C about right, B a little further out). But you won't have a usable low G in 1st.

A more absolute consideration? Bollinger brings the double valve notes closer to 1st by the ~1 7/8" that it is longer than F/G. Still ~2" further out than F/Gb, but it puts low C and B in a place that might seem 'significantly' more convenient for some people. All a matter of taste.

Your graphic chart is not accurate, nor precise enough.

The point of the Bollinger tuning is that it is in between Gb, and G tube length. So, any given note will be in a slightly lower position than Gb tuning, or, slightly higher than G tuning

The fact is, with all 3 tuning systems, there are places on the slide where you can play alternate position second valve notes with little to no movement of the slide, compared to the note you may be coming from/to. It really is just a matter of choosing "where" you want that to be.

Paul, there is no low A in TT7+. With Gb tuning, you can play a low (ie the same pitch as a pedal) Bb. But that's it.

Odd choice of trombone stock photos for the infographic; they don't match the tuning systems being demonstrated?

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:00 amBut I think there have to be some reasons Mr.Bollinger invented the system, otherwise why doesn't he just use G/Eb tuning?

Bollinger tuning is a compromise between the extra technical facility offered by all the G/Eb alternate positions and the ease of reaching low B that the extra pipe in Gb/D tuning gives you.

I don't think there's much more to it than that; Gb/D and G/Eb tuning have their tradeoffs and Bollinger decided to split the baby.

Once again I feel compelled to defend the system since it makes so much sense to me.

Ithinknot kinda nailed it imho, and that chart for Bollinger is really incorrect. Bollinger tuning (I tune mine a little higher than halfway) works perfectly to make the lower positions the same as their counterparts an octave higher.

This is because in 2nd valve alone, the middle Db is in sharp 2 (high G Ish), the C is in slightly sharp 3 (where the one above is), and B is in slightly flat 4 (where D in the staff is). You can lip up a D in 1st all the way in, or just use it for quick stuff like the opening of the creation excerpt.

The Gb, F, and E are all slightly higher than their 3rd partial counterparts above. I tune mine to E in 4th. Occasionally I use the Eb in flat 5, but only because I am used to it from playing tenor.

Then in both valves Db is a little higher than the F in 2nd valve alone, the C is in slightly flat 4 (a little less than where D in the 1st valve is) and the B is in slightly sharp 6.

So if you wanted to play an ascending Ab major scale in the staff, you use essentially the same positions as the octave above except the G. This is because as stated above, C and Db are sharp 3rd and sharp 2nd.

FWIW, Mr. Bollinger wrote a book “You’ve Got Two Valves! Use Both!” Or something like that. He provided a tuning chart and outlined his reasons for developing and using that system. I’ve played through the book, but I used Bb/F/Gb/D tuning. I just ignored the valve markings.

https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/tro ... ombone.php

Additionally, Elizar Aharoni’s book has separate sections devoted to the multiple different systems, and provides tuning charts and exercises for each one.

https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/tro ... dition.php

If you have access to these books, why not just copy them (fair use for teaching purposes) rather than try to re-invent the wheel?

My opinion (which, along with $2.00 $4.00, will buy you a cup of coffee these days!): I don’t think that one system of tuning for independent basses has any particular advantage over the others. Each have advantages and disadvantages.

Gb for me…..I don’t like 7th position (elbow pain after too much 7th)so low B in flat 6 or 7 is a no go. Plus low C in 4th is eminently useful, think Heldenleben or Shosty 5. Plus you also get a usable low D in 6th which is great sometimes. I play a lot of movies/recording and tuba etudes so low b needs to be very accessible. Also second line b in T4th is outstanding for Ride, which IMO if you want to win a job is reason enough to have a Gb valve. Not that you can’t otherwise but it really makes the excerpt a lot easier. Just my $.02

Dang, Kbiggs, your opinion is actually worth quite a lot! Coffee is like $4!

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:13 pm My opinion (which, along with $2.00, will buy you a cup of coffee these days!): I don’t think that one system of tuning for independent basses has any particular advantage over the others. Each have advantages and disadvantages.

On the contrary, each system has many particular advantages over the others

I have been using Bb/F/Gb/D tuning since I first started playing bass trombone in 1976. I have experimented with the other tunings but always go back to what I think of as "D" tuning. One issue for me is that I have short arms and can't really reach real 7th position. It's comfortable and especially when sight reading on a gig comfortable is good.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:16 pm Dang, Kbiggs, your opinion is actually worth quite a lot! Coffee is like $4!

Fixed.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:16 pm Dang, Kbiggs, your opinion is actually worth quite a lot! Coffee is like $4!

You're buying your coffee at the wrong place (and overpaying for it, to boot).

sungfw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:50 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:16 pm Dang, Kbiggs, your opinion is actually worth quite a lot! Coffee is like $4!

You're buying your coffee at the wrong place (and overpaying for it, to boot).

I mean, I guess if I buy it out of a vending machine in Tokyo, it might be cheaper but...

Most coffee I get is from Jamaica round these parts.

You sure you know what you're talking about?

Can confirm. I got dunkin donuts coffee this morning and mine was $3.95. But I splurged on almond milk instead of black. I also play a G attachment. Not sure where I'm going with this other than I love the option to have the various tuning methods available to me rather than just being stuck with only Gb

This thread is proof that people have way too much time on their hands.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:21 pm

sungfw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:50 pm

You're buying your coffee at the wrong place (and overpaying for it, to boot).

I mean, I guess if I buy it out of a vending machine in Tokyo, it might be cheaper but...

Most coffee I get is from Jamaica round these parts.

You sure you know what you're talking about?

Panera Bread coffee subscription: unlimited coffee, iced or hot, any size, any flavor – $8.99/month. Works out for me to about $0.10/cup.

So, yeah, like I said …

Remember, Harrison is in Japan where coffee (and a lot of other things) are pretty steep.

And you don't even have to go to "Fivebucks"...

The student-run coffee shop at my last university would (to discourage use of disposable containers) refill any outside vessel for $1, so I'd get a nice big thermos full cheap.

$4 for Dunkin is a travesty, Matt.

Thank you very much for the answers!

About coffee, I could go to street stall and buy donut for $0.33 and coffee for another $0.33. The quality is meh though…

Dunkin donut is around $0.6 for a typical donut.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:21 pm

sungfw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:50 pm

You're buying your coffee at the wrong place (and overpaying for it, to boot).

I mean, I guess if I buy it out of a vending machine in Tokyo, it might be cheaper but...

Most coffee I get is from Jamaica round these parts.

You sure you know what you're talking about?

Where in Japan do you live?

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:54 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:21 pm

I mean, I guess if I buy it out of a vending machine in Tokyo, it might be cheaper but...

Most coffee I get is from Jamaica round these parts.

You sure you know what you're talking about?

Where in Japan do you live?

In Kanagawa. There are lots of great roasters in Japan and they source outstanding beans, and it seems like they buy almost all of Jamaica's export. The hand drip coffee shops blow anything in the States out of the water -- they actually call "weak" (ie crappy) coffee アメリカンコーヒー, as I'm sure you know. All of the Thai coffee I've tried has been outstanding, but it's prepared very differently. Is the sweet milk coffee I'm thinking of how coffee usually is in Thailand?

I wanted to reply about getting 10¢ coffee out of keep-warmers at Panera Bread, but I've got to refrain from being mean -- Suffice to say, "that ain't it...." I'll give and say they have good iced coffee.

We brew local roasted stuff at home but it comes out to more like 50¢ a cup. Sungfw probably thought I was going to Starbucks (which would be like $7 here!). We could start a war if price was all that mattered. I remember getting "coffee" at Rudy's BBQ and you could get a giant cup, like half a gallon for $1 with unlimited refills. It was like peasant coffee, and was strangely addictive -- they brewed it like tea and its complete lack of body and flavor profile made it like a delicate canvas for the discerning gourmet -- you could find anything in those depths. Panera might still have that beat though -- they have "hazelnut"!

I stand by my statement that I'm going to the right place, and getting a coffee out, for me, is about $4.

Panera coffee is actually pretty good. Beats the pants off of Joe to Go and Starbucks, and holds its own against local small batch roasters a run for their money. In fact, last time my church's hospitality committee did a blind coffee taste test, it came in second overall—as judged by a panel that included self-proclaimed "coffee snobs," including two people who buy green coffee beans and roast them at home—beating out six local small batch roasters consistently rated "The Best of the Triangle" by readers of Indy Week.

I use Espresso! Bearing Formula (“French Roast”) to lubricate the valves, Espresso! Fast Acting (“Original Italian”) to lubricate the slide, and Espresso! Thick Formula (“Turkish”) for the tuning slides. Each costs about $2.99 per pressing, and you can keep the grounds for your garden.

Not sure how this thread degenerated into a coffee discussion.

But for what it's worth, I still like Peet's (several wonderful dark roast options) for a major now-widely-available coffee vendor (once, many years ago, my "local" shop). They got me hooked on good coffee; much better than Starbucks; infinitely superior to Dunkin' and McDonald's. I've also had good locally (dark-) roasted coffee beans from Santa Barbara Roasting Company and Vermont Artisan Coffee - I like to support these local businesses when I'm in their area.

i can't exactly speak for anything other than tuning in Gb/D, as a student i have only extensively played on bach 50s in that tuning.

the coffee on the other hand...

peet's absolutely rocks, no denying it. they too got me hooked on good coffee, definitely miles ahead of any other chain coffee place. it brings back good memories of my pre-rehearsal rituals back in high school

Just for the fun of it I thought I would throw out Bb/F/C

When I got my bass, the second valve was set up as a dependent Bb/F/E. I had a new tuning slide made with larger tubing in C so now the horn is Bb/F/C. The large tubing makes two valves very open. Low C with both valves is in first position and plays very easy. Peddle BBb is in a long 3rd and plays easy too. Low B in two trigger long 2nd position is an easy hit. So, in the key of C and the sharp keys the horn is easy to play as the positions are close to the same as with the F valve for C, B, Bb, and A.
I don't play bass much, so I would never change. I was young when I changed from Bb/F/E, so I was flexible. I just practice it. Play things one one or two octaves
I remember a guy that had a bass that had 3 valves Bb/F/ then E and Eb. All three gave him D. He said to me he might try two valves on his next horn and make the 2nd one D. It was a long time ago.

I get this feeling that valve combos on a bass is about as personal as a MP.