TromboneChat

Ok, I had my lesson with my teacher this week, (the top player at the local (good) university... and I really like her) and I nailed Bordogni #10. I did it good! Real good! And she was impressed and I got all the credit for my work I was hoping for.

But, she did mention that I was using slide vibrato at times, and while it sounded good, I should probably work on replacing slide vibrato with jaw vibrato for classical pieces. So, now I'm working on jaw vibrato and it is part of next week's lesson.

OK, I have no problem with adding a tool, a technique, a choice. But, my question here is, why?

The trombone has this unique ability to add vibrato via the slide. Why work on a jaw vibrato technique intended for instruments that don't have the great mechanical option to produce vibrato that I do? Does jaw vibrato do something that slide vibrato can't? Or, is there just an institutional bias involved with the jaw vs slide vibrato issue? Or is there a good reason for having both to use in the "proper" place?

I am going to work on jaw vibrato because I like my instructor and I will do what she tells me to because she is
sensible and I trust her, and, well, because I am taking lessons for a reason (I don't know that much). I am just wondering... What's up with this vibrato stuff?



(background information. I have no intentions of trombone as a career. I am retired and trombone is a pleasure, not a job or a hope or a plan. City band, personal pleasure, and maybe an old farts' Dixie Band, these are my trombone hopes and desires. Frankly, I am as happy as a feather in a pillow with just playing the standards in my basement with no audience other that my patient pooch (who lays by my side with nary a complaint or tip.)

They're both changing the pitch, but in different ways. Different colors. I find that "classical" jaw vibrato has a color that really lends itself to the style. Slide less so. Of course, there are a multitude of different ways to use slide vibrato (including adding jaw as well), so it's not so cut and dried.

Generally, though, when I hear (and not see- just talking about the sound) slide vibrato in more legit settings, it sticks out in a way I wouldn't want to replicate.

I will mention that I have heard a student play with what I think was jaw vibrato a couple years ago, but it was a perfect pitch change- no color, nothing, just a perfect oscillating around the note. It sounded SO strange, like a MIDI attempt at style. The color is a LOT of why we like vibrato.

Listen to your teacher. In general, slide vibrato is not appropriate for classical or romantic music. You need to listen more and discover what styles of playing are used for what styles of music. There are rare exceptions of course. Ravel specified slide vibrato at one point, because he was trying to emulate the way jazz players played. You have to do the research and understand where you are fitting in with the appropriate approach to the music you are playing.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:40 pm
Generally, though, when I hear (and not see- just talking about the sound) slide vibrato in more legit settings, it sticks out in a way I wouldn't want to replicate.

Also, this. +1

Jaw vibrato sounds different and more organic than slide vibrato -- all other brass instruments use it, and it's a sound that sounds great. It is fundamentally different from slide vibrato for one huge reason:

The shape and size of the oral cavity changes as you ascend and bring the pitch upwards. This changes the tone within a note, and gives you an entirely new palette of sound to work with. The more drastically you do it, the more desperate you can get the note to sound.

Not being able to do it and control it is a weak spot in a brass musician's ability. You're lucky that you don't use it yet -- uncontrolled lip vibrato is a huge sign of amateurish playing and sounds worse than not using it all.

If that doesn't sell it, think of it this way - lip vibrato is closer to how a singer does it. It can be unbelievably beautiful

Just another tool in the toolbox. Once you get it to work right, you'll have another accomplishment under your belt. It's not that hard to learn; go for it!

I had no concept of vibrato until i got to college and there I was taught to use breath vibrato, as singers do.

I rarely hear anyone speak of it today but there it is, option #3.

The remaining method I can think of is what you see trumpeters do, vibrating the fingers on the key tops, causing an oscillation of pressure on the embouchure. Obviously impractical for a trombone but for trumpeters it looks good on camera, much like slide vibrato for trombones.

My problem with jaw vibrato is that when i do it I feel like I I'm going "yay-yay-yay-yay..." and it seems completely contrary to any musical purpose.

Two reasons to use jaw vibrato:

1 - First position
2 - If you ever play euphonium, you need to use LOTS of vibrato, and slide vibrato is really
hard on Euph.

John Thompson

I think it's a plus to master both slide and jaw vibrato. Maybe experiment a little and find out different ways? I wonder if it may be even more ways to do vibrato? In the end it's a personal choice how it should be. Your personal taste and how you interpret different music and styles. I have listened slide vibrato in classical music and jaw vibrato in jazz with great success. Also a combination with both methods. As with everything else it has to be practiced. Can't escape from that. Good you have a teacher you like!

Leif

When I was in high school auditioning at some colleges, I didn't accept a FULL 4 year scholarship that was offered to me at one school because the teacher said "You're going to have to get rid of that slide vibrato" that I was using appropriately, on a French solo and the Creston. I decided I didn't care to study with that teacher.

All of the above, plus…

While it’s a generalization, the rule of thumb is that “jaw” vibrato is preferred in classical and legit playing, while slide vibrato is preferred in jazz and commercial playing. There are many exceptions.

A lot of the French conservatory music would likely have been written and performed with slide vibrato in mind, like Doug mentions (although there is some controversy here). However, conservatories here in the States emphasize classical vibrato and frown on slide vibrato for this same music.*

On the practical side of it, I remember reading an interview with Charles Vernon who stated that he preferred classical vibrato in the lower and middle register, and slide vibrato in the upper register to help with note stability. He practiced BOTH in ALL registers to help them sound the same.


*The trend over the past 50 or so years has been that many orchestras and schools (other than Vienna and some German and Dutch orchestras) have adopted “American” styles of instruments and technique. Some have resisted the change (Vienna and some German and Dutch orchestras), while others are looking to the past to re-learn and use older techniques to play music in the manner intended, according to the performance practice of the time. This includes vibrato of all kinds—jaw, slide, and breath (sometimes used in Renaissance and Baroque music).

Just be sure that whatever you do, it doesn't become a habit that you can't stop doing. Always be able to play with a straight sound, and only add vibrato when and where you specifically want it.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:59 am Just be sure that whatever you do, it doesn't become a habit that you can't stop doing. Always be able to play with a straight sound, and only add vibrato when and where you specifically want it.

Amen. I see this even in "high level" performers. String players who use vibrato to find the pitch, singers who can't seem to sing a straight tone. Full disclosure: I had this problem as a kid and got straightened out by my teacher.

Seems that string players (particularly cellists) use an analog of slide vibrato. They wobble the position of the finger on the string, effectively changing its length. If it's OK for a cello player to use this vibrato on sonatas, why not trombonists?

Vibrato has a use. It adds some sparkle to notes. But it should be the seasoning, not the dish.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:01 pm
Seems that string players (particularly cellists) use an analog of slide vibrato. They wobble the position of the finger on the string, effectively changing its length. If it's OK for a cello player to use this vibrato on sonatas, why not trombonists?

That is indeed a musical mystery.

One hears cello authorities give pro forma warnings against excessive vibrato but then when you hear them play they've still got a vibrato that would get you arrested if you did that on a trombone.

And yet, on them, it somehow sounds appropriate-ish.

I why this is, but it's been my experience that amateur conductors won't let trombone players use vibrato b/c they say it "looks cheesy". And yet they say nothing about anyone else using it. So my conclusion is that a jaw vibrato would be a sneaky way to use it in a 2nd rate situation like that.

I like to alternate styles in ballads that I play. Sometimes it sounds better with a straight tone and sometimes with a delayed vibrato. What I don't like are the old-school players and vocalists who pile it on from the start of the pitch to the very end. It sounds cheesy. Lol

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:38 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:01 pm
Seems that string players (particularly cellists) use an analog of slide vibrato. They wobble the position of the finger on the string, effectively changing its length. If it's OK for a cello player to use this vibrato on sonatas, why not trombonists?

That is indeed a musical mystery.

One hears cello authorities give pro forma warnings against excessive vibrato but then when you hear them play they've still got a vibrato that would get you arrested if you did that on a trombone.

And yet, on them, it somehow sounds appropriate-ish.

It’s as simple as this: we are used to a certain vibrato on cello, and a certain vibrato on trombone (and oboe, and flute, etc etc). It’s totally contextual.

Caution: Do NOT use vibrato while playing Baroque music. Inauthentic; not stylish.
String players (especially) - as well as many wind players - have to change their habits when performing Baroque (or earlier) works.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:29 pm Caution: Do NOT use vibrato while playing Baroque music. Inauthentic; not stylish.
String players (especially) - as well as many wind players - have to change their habits when performing Baroque (or earlier) works.

It's not quite that simple
Instrumental and vocal vibratos have been with us long before the Baroque, but where they were applied, and what they were assumed or intended to express in those contexts, has indeed been through many changes.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:52 pm Instrumental and vocal vibratos have been with us long before the Baroque, but where they were applied, and what they were assumed or intended to express in those contexts, has indeed been through many changes.

Perhaps my comment was too generalized and arbitrary.

Should I modify my trombone slide vibrato for use on my sackbut?

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:23 pm It’s as simple as this: we are used to a certain vibrato on cello, and a certain vibrato on trombone (and oboe, and flute, etc etc). It’s totally contextual.

It is the way it is because that is the way it has been.

There aren't many venues where that would be an adequate explanation for anything.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:29 pm Caution: Do NOT use vibrato while playing Baroque music. Inauthentic; not stylish.

The clavichord was noted for being a keyboard instrument that could do vibrato so it must be something that was known and used in that era.

But when I've read about the history of vibrato it seems like most of our knowledge of it comes from written complaints about how someone used it.

I doubt that we know the full story of what it was back then

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:14 pm Should I modify my trombone slide vibrato for use on my sackbut?

Probably not, but there's certainly scope within the trillo/tremolo/air vib. universes, depending on time and place.

It's not really my area, but I think this is still the standard reference overview of this topic: https://www.e-periodica.ch/digbib/view? ... 978%3A2#80

I had a teacher once who would try to teach his students the accepted way to do various things on the trombone. Whenever a student would say, "Why do I have to do it that way?", he would reply, "You don't, and I think you have a great career ahead of you....as a ditch digger.

How many years will it be before this preference for narrow ties become preference for wide ties again?

Wide ties are for going over a bar line.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:14 pm

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:52 pm Instrumental and vocal vibratos have been with us long before the Baroque, but where they were applied, and what they were assumed or intended to express in those contexts, has indeed been through many changes.

Perhaps my comment was too generalized and arbitrary.

Should I modify my trombone slide vibrato for use on my sackbut?

I would advise against slide vibrato in that context

But yes some vibrato was certainly used, as evidenced by some sources that say good voices should have a slight undulation, and also by the fact that what defines a "voce humana" organ stop is precisely that it has vibrato. There were some regional preferences involved too.

However, the vibrato that was used was most likely much narrower that modern vocal and string vibratos, and also likely much less constant.

There are no sources about using vibrato on trombone, but I certainly do use some on sackbut, but it's not a constant vibrato over every note, I aply it more like an ornament on some specific notes of the phrase where I want to warm the sound up a bit.

I've forgotten who it was, but my main teacher in doctoral studies, John Seidel, studied with an orchestral player who pretty much used slide vibrato for solo work. Dr. Seidel said that it sounded very much like a cello vibrato. Certainly slide vibrato would be stylistically appropriate for a lot of French repertoire.

I suspect that a classical player with good slide vibrato is less noticeable via audio alone than many of us give credit. It probably has more to do with the width, speed, and duration of the pitch that the vibrato is played than how it's produced. There definitely is some difference in sound, but I bet that because it's so much more visually noticeable that it draws attention to the vibrato and therefore seems more different than it actually is.

Rather than "jaw" vibrato I prefer to think of it as "lip" vibrato in order to minimize the amount that the jaw moves. A lot of jaw movement can create some instability in the embouchure if you're not careful.

I generally discourage breath vibrato. It seems more likely to mess with your breath control and if it becomes habitual seems harder to turn off. Ask a flautist or an opera singer to perform with no vibrato. They often find it very difficult.

Savio wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:41 am I think it's a plus to master both slide and jaw vibrato. Maybe experiment a little and find out different ways? I wonder if it may be even more ways to do vibrato? In the end it's a personal choice how it should be. Your personal taste and how you interpret different music and styles. I have listened slide vibrato in classical music and jaw vibrato in jazz with great success. Also a combination with both methods. As with everything else it has to be practiced. Can't escape from that. Good you have a teacher you like!

Leif

+++

Learn it all, even try breath vibrato. Use where appropriate

/Tom

Generally, slide vibrato is reserved for jazz, and jaw vibrato for classical. However, there are plenty of spots where slide vibrato can work in certain classical works (see Doug's post) and I've heard jaw vibrato used nicely in jazz, usually by the players that rarely use vibrato at all. Glenn Dodson only used slide vibrato to my knowledge, and when I heard him live I remember being blown away by how beautiful and appropriate it sounded. He was, however, the exception to the rule. Learning both, and knowing when (or when not) to use them is the best idea.

To PaulT's question about whether it's important to add this new skill as an amateur, yes and no. If you truly don't care about playing with others, then no. In that case, don't worry about playing in tune or in rhythm either. If you want to sound better than you did yesterday (you are taking lessons), and you enjoy being part of musical groups - you get some happiness from musical interaction - then yes. Using a good-sounding vibrato appropriately on a solo will make you sound better, which will make the group you play with sound better, and everyone wins. That to me is the essence of why we play music with others professional or not - to enjoy making the best sounds we can make, and appreciating that from your colleagues.

Jim Scott

One thing that is important when it comes to any type of vibrato is it must come from the hart. You can not mechanically perform vibrato successfully. It has so much to do with context and musicality. You need to become one with the music, then a touch of vibrato might be what makes the difference.

Early style jazz slide vibrato like the vibrato of Tommy Dorsey is not easy but to me sounds less personal than other more varied vibratos. That old style slide vibrato fits some old style music but does not fit modern jazz pieces. A jaw vibrato fits most styles, both classical and jazz.

I have experimented and played and recorded pieces with both jaw and slide vibrato. I tried to make them as close as possible. After I listened I think both works, but I had to adjust a lot. Sometimes a vibrato does not turn out the way I think it does while I'm performing. As an experiment it was hard to make a slide vibrato and a jaw vibrato sound the same or as close as possible. That was a challenge.

I find the breath vibrato to be the one that is most difficult. Next is the slide vibrato, especially in the middle and low register. It is even more difficult on a heavy slide, like the slide of a bass trombone. Jaw vibrato is rather easy. It's just to use that vibrato tastefully that needs work. The same with all vibratos. The same goes for any playing, naturally.

/Tom

I suspect that a reason most casual users of slide vibrato do it (too?) big is that it is easier to do big than small, especially if your slide is not great.

Your arm is an oscillating spring system with a bit of muscle input keeping it going

Small oscillations are harder to control and keep going against the friction of the slide.

But there should be no reason other than cosmetics that a slide vibrato can't be made to sound appropriate for any style.

I appreciate these informed comments on vibrato use and techniques. There is an impressive and diverse collection of trombone experience here. I regard the collective "you" as a valuable resource. Thanks.

(I am practicing jaw vibrato. It will come. (I hope).

Urbie demonstrating slide and jaw vibratos.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:01 pm
Seems that string players (particularly cellists) use an analog of slide vibrato. They wobble the position of the finger on the string, effectively changing its length. If it's OK for a cello player to use this vibrato on sonatas, why not trombonists?

If you move the slide too far, you are no longer playing in the center of the slot, and the tone must change.

The same thing happens of course when you lip away from the center of the slot without moving the slide.

That doesn't apply to string instruments.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:50 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:01 pm
Seems that string players (particularly cellists) use an analog of slide vibrato. They wobble the position of the finger on the string, effectively changing its length. If it's OK for a cello player to use this vibrato on sonatas, why not trombonists?

If you move the slide too far, you are no longer playing in the center of the slot, and the tone must change.

The same thing happens of course when you lip away from the center of the slot without moving the slide.

That doesn't apply to string instruments.

I'm not sure playing in the centre of the slot is neither a good or a bad thing when it comes to slide vibrato. It depends what you want
If you look at that video with Urbie Green he says he strives to keep the pitch through the slide vibrato with his lips. He also demontrates this and what happens if he does the opposite. (By the way: His jaw vibrato sounds very close to his slide vibrato). If he moves the slide and does his best to keep the pitch then he is not playing in the centre of the slot all the time and that is - as he reveals - one of the secrets with his beautiful vibrato. (real good video by the way)

/Tom

Tom, that's interesting! Is that video on YouTube?
A little side note about vibrato, there is also a choice sometimes to not use vibrato.

I think also this hole subject have a lot to do when developing our musicality. It's a colour to our language. Depending how much, where and when. Also when not to use it.

Happy vibrating all!

Leif

Savio wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:17 pm Tom, that's interesting! Is that video on YouTube?
A little side note about vibrato, there is also a choice sometimes to not use vibrato.

I think also this hole subject have a lot to do when developing our musicality. It's a colour to our language. Depending how much, where and when. Also when not to use it.

Happy vibrating all!

Leif

Yes this video.

Pre59 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:11 pm Urbie demonstrating slide and jaw vibratos.

/Tom

timothy42b wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:50 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:01 pm
Seems that string players (particularly cellists) use an analog of slide vibrato. They wobble the position of the finger on the string, effectively changing its length. If it's OK for a cello player to use this vibrato on sonatas, why not trombonists?

If you move the slide too far, you are no longer playing in the center of the slot, and the tone must change.

The same thing happens of course when you lip away from the center of the slot without moving the slide.

I don't think this is quite right. If you move the slide, you can be in the middle of the slot the whole time.

If you use your lip to change the pitch, then you aren't in the middle of the slot. So the second statement you had is right, but I disagree with the first

I tried watching that Urbie Green clip.

It is so spectacularly out-of-synch that I can't tell when he's sliding or jawing or speaking Japanese.

It's like that scene in "Singing in the Rain" where the wrong voice is coming out of the wrong mouth.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:09 pm

timothy42b wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:50 pm

If you move the slide too far, you are no longer playing in the center of the slot, and the tone must change.

The same thing happens of course when you lip away from the center of the slot without moving the slide.

I don't think this is quite right. If you move the slide, you can be in the middle of the slot the whole time.

If you use your lip to change the pitch, then you aren't in the middle of the slot. So the second statement you had is right, but I disagree with the first

I bolded one of your sentences for emphasis. I think you are both right and wrong. If you move the slide AND move your lips, you can maintain tone. If you don't compensate with embouchure and just move the slide, then you will have a different tone the further you get out of the center of the slot.

Whether that's bad or not I don't know. But it's different from a string player who pretty much has to maintain the tone as the pitch varies.

Ahhh, I got ya. Yeah, I try to stay right in the middle of the pitch as I move the slide -- not intentionally trying to maintain some other pitch. What you describe is like reverse lip vibrato

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:30 am Glenn Dodson only used slide vibrato to my knowledge, and when I heard him live I remember being blown away by how beautiful and appropriate it sounded.

Thank you, Jim! Glenn Dodson was the trombonist who I was trying to remember in my previous post here.

imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:05 pm Early style jazz slide vibrato like the vibrato of Tommy Dorsey is not easy but to me sounds less personal than other more varied vibratos. That old style slide vibrato fits some old style music but does not fit modern jazz pieces. A jaw vibrato fits most styles, both classical and jazz.

I suspect that it's not so much the type of vibrato that is being used, but how wide the vibrato is, how fast it is, and when in the duration of the note it happens. Those are the elements that make a vibrato stylistic to classical, traditional jazz styles, and more modern jazz styles.

For example, compare a Dorsey ballad with a Bill Watrous ballad. Dorsey would probably be paying a quicker and more narrow vibrato that goes more or less over the entire length of the note. Watrous, on the other hand, would probably play most of the note straight and only add vibrato towards the end of the note. One could do something similar with lip vibrato, although I feel that it's harder to make a wider vibrato with lip vibrato than with the slide.

Dave

Rather than jaw, try an ah-ee vowel change for the warble. Note that Urbie talks about vowels for range change. We can no longer ask this question, but reading between the lines on his statement of trying to maintain the same pitch in a vibrato, he could mean combining an ah-ee with a slide vibrato but in opposite phase. Carl Fontana said Urbie used "slide and lip" vibrato together, but he couldn't make it work for him so generally went without.

Sarah Vaughn had a beautiful vibrato. I do not think I have enough slide length to emulate it, though. Maybe free-buzz vibrato?!

I took a clip of Urbie Green's recording of Ave Maria and slowed it down to 1/4 speed.

He is clearly changing pitch with his vibrato.

I'd put the clip here but mp3 isn't allowed

I think that slide vibrato is discouraged mainly for the reason that it is a deceptively difficult technique to master (in comparison, jaw/lip vibrato is fairly intuitive and simple), and so most players don't do it very well. Hearing bad vibrato... is a strong discouragement for bandleaders and conductors. Slide vibrato is serious business: it requires some real study and constant practice, and there are many different ways to approach it.

Other than that, the requirements for vibrato are rather hilariously subjective. For instance, classical flute players use a lot of vibrato, whereas non-classical flute players tend to play with a straight tone. But classical clarinetists play straight, while non-classical clarinetists often use lots of vibrato.

And, as we've seen, these fashions change from country to country (as we were talking about European vs American styles) and according to the time period. All you can do is study the style of music you're trying to play and learn to play within those styles as accurately as you can.