TromboneChat

I’m recording bass and tuba parts of (Elgar) Nimrod for an orchestra project. ~ 40 bpm. Trickier than I expected.

But, also a great chops workout.

I could see taking almost any piece and working through it really slowly, 40 bpm, the lowest setting, concentrating on support, pitch, starting and ending notes.

Any thoughts on this?

I think you preached to the choir…

Slow practice helps build patterns so if you see a figure in another piece you already know how to play it. That's the reason we have so many scale and arpeggio exercises -- most of our parts consist of these basic elements.

In sports science the hypothesis is that practicing a skill slowly at first trains the body to perform the pattern in a relaxed manner. As the speed of movement increases, the more efficient, relaxed movement patterns persist so the skill is performed with minimal tension.

There is the school of thought in music that fast should be practiced fast. However, in that method the phrase is practiced in short parts that are gradually connected. This also probably allows the creation of efficient patterns.

VJOFan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:27 pm In sports science the hypothesis is that practicing a skill slowly at first trains the body to perform the pattern in a relaxed manner. As the speed of movement increases, the more efficient, relaxed movement patterns persist so the skill is performed with minimal tension.

There is the school of thought in music that fast should be practiced fast. However, in that method the phrase is practiced in short parts that are gradually connected. This also probably allows the creation of efficient patterns.

I usually "default" to the slow practice approach, both for my teaching and my personal practice, but I have found the "fragmented" approach to be useful sometimes. It does, for instance, allow you to practice a passage that you will be double-tonguing at a speed where you don't have to shift back to single and then shift to double as you get closer to the performance tempo. It also engages your concentration/brain in a slightly different way, and can be a refreshing change of pace.

Jim Scott

VJOFan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:27 pm In sports science the hypothesis is that practicing a skill slowly at first trains the body to perform the pattern in a relaxed manner. As the speed of movement increases, the more efficient, relaxed movement patterns persist so the skill is performed with minimal tension.

I want to see a pole vaulter do this!

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:13 am

VJOFan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:27 pm In sports science the hypothesis is that practicing a skill slowly at first trains the body to perform the pattern in a relaxed manner. As the speed of movement increases, the more efficient, relaxed movement patterns persist so the skill is performed with minimal tension.

I want to see a pole vaulter do this!

And I want to see a pole vaulter practice his vault in little bits.

Some activities don't lend themselves to slow practice, or even fast practice in small pieces. Both techniques are tools that can be used when appropriate. I have to say, I got more out of slow practice preparing a solo than fast practice in little bits.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:13 am

VJOFan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:27 pm In sports science the hypothesis is that practicing a skill slowly at first trains the body to perform the pattern in a relaxed manner. As the speed of movement increases, the more efficient, relaxed movement patterns persist so the skill is performed with minimal tension.

I want to see a pole vaulter do this!

Go to a pro meet then. Very frequently I see competitors mentally rehearsing their sequence through a kind of dance. Same as slow practice of music, it seems. I haven't been in a gym with a vaulter, but I would expect to see some pretty innovative apparatus for enabling the practice of the individual techniques required, as gymnasts also do. And, a pro track meet is a heckofa show.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:36 am

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:13 am I want to see a pole vaulter do this!

And I want to see a pole vaulter practice his vault in little bits.

My dim memory of gym class and the one week we did "pole vaulting" is that we started out very small.

The pole was about long enough to grasp at shoulder level and there was no bar to clear. We were just trying to get that maneuver of planting the pole and using it as a lever to fling the body up higher onto the landing cushion.

There might have been one kid in the class who could do something that sort-of resembled the real thing. It wasn't me.

The teacher never offered to show us he could do it, either.

But I presume in Pole Vault World that is how they start. Full speed but small, then they build their way up to higher.

In Trombone World I suppose that is like how you start out playing quarter notes at normal tempo but not very high or very low. After you get the basic note going you work on higher and lower.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:51 am

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:13 am

I want to see a pole vaulter do this!

Go to a pro meet then. Very frequently I see competitors mentally rehearsing their sequence through a kind of dance. Same as slow practice of music, it seems.

This. Many athletes using imaging/visualization to practice their sport.

Mental practice combined with some kind of kinesthetic movement—fingerings, slide movements, breath marks, all without playing the instrument—is a great way to practice without spending energy on the embouchure.

I attended a workshop with Boston Brass a few years ago. Some of my then-students attended too, and were amazed at the variety of techniques available: singing, blowing through phrases, singing just the rhythms… the varieties of practice-sans-horn are limited only by the imagination. And yes, they work.

Slow practice is good, you can definitely work on many things very effectively with it. What makes it work well is that it gives you time to focus your attention on certain things. Practicing slow simply for its own sake isn't really as effective as focused practice, however.

I feel that the bulk of practice is best done where you're at the edge of where you can almost, but not quite, play what you're working on correctly. For something very challenging it might be slow, but if you've already mastered a fair bit of it it can be much faster.

Fast practice has its place too. Back when I was a student I recall a jazz combo rehearsal where our director, saxophonist Peter Ballin, was running a little behind and hadn't arrived at the beginning of rehearsal. We decided to jam a bit while we waited and were playing Giant Steps at a nice moderate tempo. The pianist was scuffling through a solo when Peter walked in. He grinned when he recognized what we were playing and got his sax out and was going to blow a solo after the pianist. I walked over to the bassist and drummer and whispered that they should kick in the tempo as fast as possible as soon as Peter started to play. We thought that would be funny. They did and Peter just laughed and went ahead at a ridiculous tempo leaving our jaws on the floor.

Afterwards Peter mentioned that he's often asked how he got good at playing over fast tempos. He mentioned slow practice, but emphasized that if you want to play at fast tempos you have to practice playing at fast tempos.

Wilktone wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:44 am
Afterwards Peter mentioned that he's often asked how he got good at playing over fast tempos. He mentioned slow practice, but emphasized that if you want to play at fast tempos you have to practice playing at fast tempos.

Some of the pros who already have blazing speed will practice a new piece at a slow tempo. I think it was Alessi who said he works out a new concerto in half notes first.

And I think what gets missed sometimes is this advice comes from people who already have the technique to play at blazing speed, and those of us who don't, think we can get there with the same slow practice. It doesn't work.

Remember: slow practice is a prelude to faster practice. You practice slow until you can't make a mistake. Then you click the tempo up a notch or two. I was told during the speedup phase you go as fast as you can without making mistakes. This should get faster and faster as you practice doing the patterns at a higher speed.

I'm performing this Christmas on tuba with a small wind ensemble from a local community college. There are some lines in the music that are tough. (At least for me... YMMV )

I've been practicing the lines slowly, roughly half tempo, to build finger pattern memory and to make sure I'm hearing the part correctly. But I switch periodically to playing the lines a few times at tempo with the recording, before I return to my slow practice. I've about mastered the part. We'll see how things go at the next rehearsal.

--Andy in OKC

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:29 am Remember: slow practice is a prelude to faster practice. You practice slow until you can't make a mistake.

If you are a pro, with all the technique you need, then you practice slow and correct until you can't make a mistake.

If you are an amateur, the risk is you practice slow and embed wrong, until you can't learn it right.

I'm not sure you should ever practice slow if you can't play at least portions of it fast.

I think visualizing pole-vaulting would be superior to ever having to do it.

Something implied from above: rhythmic integrity. When practicing slowly, it’s important that rhythms are absolutely correct. Subdividing in your head (your “mind’s ear”) is essential.

Gabe Rice mentioned an app awhile ago that he uses: TimeGuru. I have not had the discipline to use it lately, but when I was playing more challenging music (prior to the pandemic), it reinforced the necessity of subdividing in your head. It’s a metronome that randomly leaves out a click or two (or a subdivision or two) so that you can randomly hear when you arrive at the next beat exactly on time, or whether you are relying on the metronome to keep time for you.

I like to listen to Jason's thoughts and watch his videos on practicing and technique. I don't think there is a definitive answer regarding fast and slow practice.

https://bulletproofmusician.com/jason-s ... yusyve_AC4

Jason also has several drone and time keeping products available in a few different formats. The time keeping aid, which I assume is similar to TimeGuru, is absolutely fabulous.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:13 am

VJOFan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:27 pm In sports science the hypothesis is that practicing a skill slowly at first trains the body to perform the pattern in a relaxed manner. As the speed of movement increases, the more efficient, relaxed movement patterns persist so the skill is performed with minimal tension.

I want to see a pole vaulter do this!

Of course you can't do an entire vault really slow. They use the second thing I mentioned- chunking.
They practice the approach to get the timing of the plant. They practice just planting and beginning to go up... As mentioned above beginners learn on shorter poles, but also on stiff poles. Only when they have that mastered do they start using the flexible poles to learn how to use the whip action.

Creative people can break down complex activities into manageable chunks or easier approximations in many ways.

Slow works for a lot of things. Chunking works for others.

I think something that trips people up (myself included for sure!) is when the technique has to change from the slow tempo to the fast one. Multiple tonguing a lick at quarter tempo is totally different than at full speed. Different resonance, different air, different slide, etc. I think it’s important to remember to adjust as the speed changes. You might ask: “why do it at all then?” I think the mind needs the slow practice as much as the body does.

I like to, rather than working up from a very slow tempo, practice at no tempo (very slow, out of time), half or quarter tempo, full tempo, too fast, and something in between half and full speed. The technique will vary, as will the rhythm/meter feel, as will what my mind is focusing on.

It's weird how little differences sneak in to technique.

For example, I spend a fair amount of my calisthenics doing a phrase in time with no tongue, then exactly the same with single, then exactly the same with multiple, and sometimes using slurs with intermediate singles. And also follow one with another in time or even random switching. It seems like it ought to be easy to iron these things out but difficulties show up. For instance, slurs or single may work in a way that does not facilitate immediate switching to multiple and back. So I may try massaging the single to match the multiple or vice versa.

This same weirdness shows up in other areas where switching happens, too.

baileyman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:00 am

This same weirdness shows up in other areas where switching happens, too.

I think one of those areas is the lip trill. (jaw trill, tongue trill, whatever you want to call it)

The pros say it is a fast flexibility, and I believe that - for them.

For most of us the incremental speedup of a flexibility does not work, no matter how many years we do it. But once the knack of the trill is acquired, it can be slowed into a flexibility.

“ For most of us the incremental speedup of a flexibility does not work, no matter how many years we do it.”

Yep.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:03 am ...

I think one of those areas is the lip trill. (jaw trill, tongue trill, whatever you want to call it)

...

Oh, yes, I almost put that in! It seems useful to put these on the end of a line as a tag. The it's pretty obvious whether the system is set up to do one. It's embarrassing to imagine a nice trill after a scale or something, and it gets closer with every step, and then it's there--flthithuwith. Rats. Then to back up and figure out what's the system difference between a trill that works and a scale that works. And on to the next one.

But flexibility does go slow. At least it does if it's a tongue thing. I've heard people describe a trill as being between partials, but that makes no sense to me. A good trill is smack in the middle of both of them. Tongue-wise anyway. But if it works some other way, too, cool.

Not starting a "buzz or not buzz war"... getting trills going, for me. happened when I got really good at very smooth free and mp buzz glissandi. Especially, if I took the glissando into the higher registers.

Just playing on the horn, for me, made the partials "sticky" so I couldn't move quickly between them. Once I learned to feel the fluidity of movement of buzzing, I could emulate that freedom on the horn and trill.

So I am not saying anyone has to try buzzing. I am saying that trilling is a function of being able to ignore or at least not get stuck on the partials.

My own take on this is that practice problems (or improvisation problems, or composition problems...) have to be attacked from different angles.

When you practice S L O W, you're working on very different things than when you practice FAST.

Just like how practicing something up the octave and something up the octave are going to challenge you in different ways. Practicing something really loud and then really soft is going to challenge you in different ways. Practicing sight-reading a piece and practicing careful, methodical preparation of the same piece are going to get you develop different skills. And they're all important.

Do it mindfully and carefully, and attack the problem from "both ends". You're targeting different technical issues, in different ways, when you do that. You'll never master certain things on the instrument without slow practice, and you'll never magically learn to play really fast passages without ever actually, you know, doing it.

You focus on entirely different issues, and both are really important.

Given how finicky brass playing can be, and how human psychology works, we (rightfully) tend to talk more about slow practice. That's for a good reason. (Several, really.) Stick with it. Then add some fast practice, too.