TromboneChat

I am looking for Conn 36H and a local seller have one.
It has engraving that says 36H "Made in U.S.A.".(see the attached file)
I have two Eastlake horns and both of them say just "USA" not "Made in U.S.A.".
The seller says that he bought the horn new at the local music store in 2017, but it is unsure whether he bought an old stock or not.
I always knew that new Elkhart conns(2015~) have more elaborate engravings that says "Made in Elkhart, Indiana USA" but I might be wrong.
Is it possible that the horn is from new Elkhart factory?
Any experts?
Of course I can play before buying, but I want to know details before trying.

That is the old Eastlake engraving.

Conn have moved to a new factory in Elkhart apparently, I have had a back and forth with a guy who was given an 8h from the new factory and is now sells nag it on eBay as an Elkhart 8h, I did try to get him to understand it's not an Elkie..... But his argument is its says it is and was made there....oh well

The new Conn trombones are assembled in the Bach plant in Elkhart Indiana. That is when the engraving changed.

Benn

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 10:38 pm Conn have moved to a new factory in Elkhart apparently, I have had a back and forth with a guy who was given an 8h from the new factory and is now sells nag it on eBay as an Elkhart 8h, I did try to get him to understand it's not an Elkie..... But his argument is its says it is and was made there....oh well

Pretty sure he has you there. Maybe if you said "vintage Elkhart" or something. But technically the new Elkhart Conn's have a vintage too.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 7:15 pm That is the old Eastlake engraving.

It's probably a good 36H. I thought about trading in my Eastlake 36H to help fund a Shires Eb/Bb alto. I've had some good long sessions on a Shires now, and I changed my mind... Not giving up my alto any more.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 1:18 am

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 10:38 pm Conn have moved to a new factory in Elkhart apparently, I have had a back and forth with a guy who was given an 8h from the new factory and is now sells nag it on eBay as an Elkhart 8h, I did try to get him to understand it's not an Elkie..... But his argument is its says it is and was made there....oh well

Pretty sure he has you there. Maybe if you said "vintage Elkhart" or something. But technically the new Elkhart Conn's have a vintage too.

They are trombones assembled in Elkhart and stamped with a Conn logo. Not from the same factory, almost certainly none of the same workers, afaik not the same tooling, and of course the original C.G. Conn company was liquidated in bankruptcy half a century ago. I think a reasonable way to conceptualize modern Conns is that an unrelated company acquired the rights to the brand name and is making modernized/updated replicas of the previous company's designs. Whether the modern take is better or worse is a matter of taste, but it's certainly not the same thing.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 7:32 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 1:18 am

Pretty sure he has you there. Maybe if you said "vintage Elkhart" or something. But technically the new Elkhart Conn's have a vintage too.

They are trombones assembled in Elkhart and stamped with a Conn logo. Not from the same factory, almost certainly none of the same workers, afaik not the same tooling, and of course the original C.G. Conn company was liquidated in bankruptcy half a century ago. I think a reasonable way to conceptualize modern Conns is that an unrelated company acquired the rights to the brand name and is making modernized/updated replicas of the previous company's designs. Whether the modern take is better or worse is a matter of taste, but it's certainly not the same thing.

Part of the reason for the rise of Bach in the 1970's was that a lot of the Conn craftsmen who didn't want to move to Texas were hired by Bach. By now all of those craftsmen have retired or died so a modern Conn made by Bach isn't the same as the Conn Elkhart company.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 7:15 pm That is the old Eastlake engraving.

Thanks for all the replies, but
When I searched the internet, almost all Eastlake conns have just "USA" not "Made in U.S.A".
I found two or some that has "Made in U.S.A" in the brass-exchange's archive of sold, but don't know the manufacture year for sure.
Maybe, for the first few years of new Elkhart, maybe they use "Made in U.S.A" engraving and changed to current engraving very recently?

my 88H has this engraving. I bought new in 2018.

That was def not made in 2018. If you bought it new then it was "old" new stock.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 7:32 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 1:18 am

Pretty sure he has you there. Maybe if you said "vintage Elkhart" or something. But technically the new Elkhart Conn's have a vintage too.

They are trombones assembled in Elkhart and stamped with a Conn logo. Not from the same factory, almost certainly none of the same workers, afaik not the same tooling, and of course the original C.G. Conn company was liquidated in bankruptcy half a century ago. I think a reasonable way to conceptualize modern Conns is that an unrelated company acquired the rights to the brand name and is making modernized/updated replicas of the previous company's designs. Whether the modern take is better or worse is a matter of taste, but it's certainly not the same thing.

That couldn't be further from the truth. Conn was not "liquidated." They merged to create UMI which was then acquired by Selmer to form Conn-Selmer. Just like Bach and kIng, they own and maintain all of the designs, hardware, etc. It is not simply a "brand." The current 88H is the exact same 88H gen 2 model that has been around for 30 years. The "original" 88H from the 50's/60's hasn't been in production in 50 years.

...

spencercarran wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 7:32 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 1:18 am

Pretty sure he has you there. Maybe if you said "vintage Elkhart" or something. But technically the new Elkhart Conn's have a vintage too.

They are trombones assembled in Elkhart and stamped with a Conn logo. Not from the same factory, almost certainly none of the same workers, afaik not the same tooling, and of course the original C.G. Conn company was liquidated in bankruptcy half a century ago. I think a reasonable way to conceptualize modern Conns is that an unrelated company acquired the rights to the brand name and is making modernized/updated replicas of the previous company's designs. Whether the modern take is better or worse is a matter of taste, but it's certainly not the same thing.

Yeah, well, no...not quite. This is like when Lindberg thought that Conn's were made in Mexico in the 70s. They weren't great, but they also weren't made in mexico. Just misinformation, and not fair to Mexico. Anyways, Conn owns their names and trademarks, not you. We should come up with a new way to identify and label pre 1970 Elkhart Conns.

castrubone wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 1:01 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 7:32 am

They are trombones assembled in Elkhart and stamped with a Conn logo. Not from the same factory, almost certainly none of the same workers, afaik not the same tooling, and of course the original C.G. Conn company was liquidated in bankruptcy half a century ago. I think a reasonable way to conceptualize modern Conns is that an unrelated company acquired the rights to the brand name and is making modernized/updated replicas of the previous company's designs. Whether the modern take is better or worse is a matter of taste, but it's certainly not the same thing.

That couldn't be further from the truth. Conn was not "liquidated." They merged to create UMI which was then acquired by Selmer to form Conn-Selmer. Just like Bach and kIng, they own and maintain all of the designs, hardware, etc. It is not simply a "brand." The current 88H is the exact same 88H gen 2 model that has been around for 30 years. The "original" 88H from the 50's/60's hasn't been in production in 50 years.

You're skipping some steps in the history - the CG Conn company, facing bankruptcy, was sold to a publishing company in the late 60s. The company was later sold a couple more times, eventually winding up under the same owner as King, at which point UMI was established.

Your last point I think is consistent with what I was saying - the 88H as designed and manufactured by the CG Conn company in their original Elkhart plant has been gone a long time. The same brand name (and, confusingly, model number) is being used by a successor company for an updated design that was introduced in the 1990s in Eastlake, Ohio (though it has in turn been moved to a facility in Elkhart as of 2015).

A lot of weird "bedfellows" with band instrument companies and their acquisitions... Selmer owned by Magnavox at some point and King owned by Seeburg Corporation (a jukebox manufacturer).