mouthpiece buzzing...opinions

[PosauneCat]

Let me start this by saying...DOUG ELLIOTT, you can't answer this (yet at least)! You and I have talked about this at length and I don't want your opinion to skew the results of my little poll.

Those of you who do a lot of mouthpiece buzzing:

Do you think your mouthpiece placement and musculature is EXACTLY the same as when you are blowing through the horn?

Mike Coyle

[harrisonreed]

I don't buzz. But that is because I know it's not even close to the same. "When you practice buzzing on the mouthpiece, you practice a horrible sound" and all that.

Just my own conclusion to a very complex topic

[harrisonreed]

James Markey gets at it from a different angle. He seems like he is likely an avid buzzer, but his points support my reasons for not doing it. I think this is worth watching!



I will point out that he keeps saying he's "buzzing" each pitch he plays on the horn, but I don't think that's what happens. When he plays an E in first, yeah, he's buzzing into the horn as a megaphone (amplifier). But the other notes he says "you need to buzz the correct pitch". I don't think that's what is happening -- he himself says at the beginning of the video that air and embouchure are two sides of the same coin. He isn't staying consistent with his own advice. He isn't "buzzing" those partials into the horn, but he is making the whole system, including his lips, RESONATE up and down those partials. Take away the horn and the "buzz" would immediately stop.

So he says "oh, this doesn't mean the buzz isn't important" but yeah, it really does. He is still trying to separate that buzz out (dang teachers) but per his own teaching that is like cutting the coin in half, and then trying to glue it back together...

[GabrielRice]

I do some mouthpiece playing every day.

It's not the same as playing the instrument.

I don't like what happens when I don't do it.

[Kdanielsen]

I don’t buzz much anymore, and I think I’m better off.

I used to buzz a lot, however, and I can state confidently that buzzing on your mouthpiece is very different from playing the complete horn. I think it’s possible to develop an approach that makes the two things feel similar, but I’m not sure there is a benefit to that (and there might be a detriment).

[Burgerbob]

I mostly freebuzz these days. But when that's working, the mouthpiece buzz feels good too. I try to do 50/50 when I'm checking in on things.

[paulyg]

It's a good way to practice "command the body to make the sound." I think it helps some people (myself included) to close the loop, in a sense. I probably don't do enough of it, but I went through a phase where I did wayyyy too much and have no desire to repeat that.

[CalgaryTbone]

I buzz a bit - probably 5 - 10 minutes a day. I find that using a BERP or a leadpipe works the best for me. I like to have a bit more resistance - closer to playing the horn. Also, I find it to be more beneficial if I check my pitch often (either on the horn or a keyboard) and try to make sure that I avoid buzzing in between pitches. I like the positive impact it has on my sound and ease of playing. I also find that adding more buzzing to my routine isn't necessarily better for me. That 5 - 10 minutes seems just right.

Jim Scott

[PosauneCat]

This has been interesting to read. To me buzzing the mpc is remarkably different from playing. As I am trying to get back into playing after centuries off, I’ve found mpc buzzing unhelpful, it is so different from the way my embouchure works in the horn it actually hinders my development. As a kid I never really did it at all. There wasn’t a ton of talk about mp buzzing back then.

Doug, if you read this feel free to contribute. I wasn’t trying to censor you. Yours is a very respected voice here and I didn’t want that to influence anyone’s response. I know you and I have talked about this a few times and I believe our thinking about it is pretty similar.

Mike

[PosauneCat]

Markey seems to be playing it safe by staying in the middle of the road. Yet, it’s kind of implicit in what he says that mpc buzzing and playing are vastly different.

James Markey gets at it from a different angle. He seems like he is likely an avid buzzer, but his points support my reasons for not doing it. I think this is worth watching!



I will point out that he keeps saying he's "buzzing" each pitch he plays on the horn, but I don't think that's what happens. When he plays an E in first, yeah, he's buzzing into the horn as a megaphone (amplifier). But the other notes he says "you need to buzz the correct pitch". I don't think that's what is happening -- he himself says at the beginning of the video that air and embouchure are two sides of the same coin. He isn't staying consistent with his own advice. He isn't "buzzing" those partials into the horn, but he is making the whole system, including his lips, RESONATE up and down those partials. Take away the horn and the "buzz" would immediately stop.

So he says "oh, this doesn't mean the buzz isn't important" but yeah, it really does. He is still trying to separate that buzz out (dang teachers) but per his own teaching that is like cutting the coin in half, and then trying to glue it back together...

[Tbarh]

Saying that You shouldnt buzz because its not playing is like telling Usain Bolt that he shouldnt do Squats because its not running...

[Doug Elliott]

This might not make sense to everybody, but have you ever tried running on a sloped surface, where one foot is constantly higher than the other? Or on a curb, with your right foot hitting the curb and your left foot in the gutter?

It's running...

[Tbarh]

Look,... on vacations without the horn i have tried to play mouthpiece only.. Doesnt help much... Might as well have a real vacation... Mouthpieceplaying is a practicesupplement.Not a replacement for ordinary practicing.. It doesnt replace playing.... But in combination it works for me.... Big time!

[harrisonreed]

Saying that You shouldnt buzz because its not playing is like telling Usain Bolt that he shouldnt do Squats because its not running...

Again, I disagree. Trombone playing is not like sprinting or any athletic activity. It's a fine motor skill, muscles that easily over stressed and blown out from over work, which is what buzzing is. Don't take it from me. Ask Phil Smith about what he thinks buzzing did to his career. Watch at around 4:00.



The idea that the face is some muscle your train up like your glutes and quads is not a good one.

Saying that you shouldn't buzz because it is not playing is like telling Magnus Carlsen not to do finger pushups because it is not playing chess....

Saying that you shouldn't buzz because it is not playing is like telling Paganini not to do bicep curls because it is not playing the violin...

It's like holding weights with your lips because you think that will strengthen your face and get you playing better. They are tiny, fine motor muscles. No benefit.

[harrisonreed]

This might not make sense to everybody, but have you ever tried running on a sloped surface, where one foot is constantly higher than the other? Or on a curb, with your right foot hitting the curb and your left foot in the gutter?

It's running...

Now that is a good comparison. Markey playing the E in first is like he's running with one foot in the gutter. There is a good reason to not do it. Who trains on purpose, running with one foot in the gutter? I'm imagining myself watching that scene, someone exerting a lot of effort running with a foot in the gutter, seriously thinking they are training hard. I'd go "that isn't running ..."

I still like his own coin reference. How are you going to cut the coin in half alongg the edge, really polish up only one half of it, and then expect to put the coin back together and use it?

[FOSSIL]

I freebuzz the same as I play...I can buzz a note and put the instrument on my face and a normal note comes out and I can play a note and remove the instrument and go to a buzz without a break. It is what it is....I'm not going to argue about it...I really don't care. I don't know why some people get so upset about this.

Chris

[Tbarh]

This might not make sense to everybody, but have you ever tried running on a sloped surface, where one foot is constantly higher than the other? Or on a curb, with your right foot hitting the curb and your left foot in the gutter?

It's running...

Now that is a good comparison. Markey playing the E in first is like he's running with one foot in the gutter. There is a good reason to not do it. Who trains on purpose, running with one foot in the gutter? I'm imagining myself watching that scene, someone exerting a lot of effort running with a foot in the gutter, seriously thinking they are training hard. I'd go "that isn't running ..."

I still like his own coin reference. How are you going to cut the coin in half alongg the edge, really polish up only one half of it, and then expect to put the coin back together and use it?

In my next post i say : It works for me... Big time!
Dont You beleive it?

[Tbarh]

I freebuzz the same as I play...I can buzz a note and put the instrument on my face and a normal note comes out and I can play a note and remove the instrument and go to a buzz without a break. It is what it is....I'm not going to argue about it...I really don't care. I don't know why some people get so upset about this.

Chris

Well, If You have students You at least should take a stand on whether You should teach it or NOT..

[Doug Elliott]

Freebuzzing is extremely useful when done a particular way - I do it and teach it.

[Tbarh]

Freebuzzing is extremely useful when done a particular way - I do it and teach it.

Yes, me too. And the caveat that it should be done a certain way is an important one...

[harrisonreed]

In my next post i say : It works for me... Big time!
Dont You beleive it?

No, actually. Prove it. I want to see it.

And yeah, I'm not upset, as Chris Stearn might imply. But the video evidence from players vastly superior to me saying that buzzing is worthless (even when they end their video saying it's not worthless...) is more compelling than statements that say "no it works, trust me".

I haven't seen a video of someone freebuzzing "the right way", and I haven't seen a video of anyone doing any buzzing that transfers to the horn seamlessly.

Even Sam Burris made a video where he goes from free buzz to rim to mouthpiece to horn, and his corners change for each one.

[Kdanielsen]

Saying that You shouldnt buzz because its not playing is like telling Usain Bolt that he shouldnt do Squats because its not running...

Yes!

The main thing I found it useful for was developing some strength.

When I was younger it was good to develop habits with air, and good for my ear.

[Fidbone]

Make of it what you will https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiZ8qyVg4ao

[Tbarh]

In my next post i say : It works for me... Big time!
Dont You beleive it?

No, actually. Prove it. I want to see it.

And yeah, I'm not upset, as Chris Stearn might imply. But the video evidence from players vastly superior to me saying that buzzing is worthless (even when they end their video saying it's not worthless...) is more compelling than statements that say "no it works, trust me".

I haven't seen a video of someone freebuzzing "the right way", and I haven't seen a video of anyone doing any buzzing that transfers to the horn seamlessly.

Even Sam Burris made a video where he goes from free buzz to rim to mouthpiece to horn, and his corners change for each one.

My first reply was a bit off the op's original question... He asked If there was a difference between how You blow the mouthpiece alone, and the way You blow Your horn.I really didnt reply to that question. My reply to that is: Yes, there is a difference... My subsequent point is : so what, If it improve Your playing?..

[Kdanielsen]

The idea that the face is some muscle your train up like your glutes and quads is not a good one.

Saying that you shouldn't buzz because it is not playing is like telling Magnus Carlsen not to do finger pushups because it is not playing chess....

Saying that you shouldn't buzz because it is not playing is like telling Paganini not to do bicep curls because it is not playing the violin...

It's like holding weights with your lips because you think that will strengthen your face and get you playing better. They are tiny, fine motor muscles. No benefit.

I’m not claiming that we should train our embouchure muscles like they are biceps. I think we need to develop them using our trombones and sometimes our mouthpieces.

Look at the face/embouchure of most rockstar level trombonists. The muscles of their embouchures are clearly developed way past the point of a novice player. Even Lindberg has “brass player’s face.” As I’ve progressed my embouchure muscles have grown and become more defined.

The point isn’t to develop the muscles, it’s to be better at operating the trombone. Athletes go to the gym despite the fact that they will never have to do a push-up on the field.

The mouthpiece is a useful tool for this. I’m not here for a million back and forth arguments, this is just my opinion after lots of practice and study. Take it or leave it.

[Basbasun]

Those of you who do a lot of mouthpiece buzzing:

Do you think your mouthpiece placement and musculature is EXACTLY the same as when you are blowing through the horn?
Mike Coyle

I don´t do a LOT of mpc buzzing, but I do know that my musculature i not exactly the same when blowing the horn. As some one said "if I play an F as beautiful I can" and take the horn away from the mpc/mouth there will not be any sound. If I don´t blow a little harder, or flex my chops a little. If iI play the F and take away the horn/mpc from my chops still blowing, there is only air no tone, if I am still blowing and put the horn/mpc back on my chops the F is back. If I put a mute in the bell my chops wont be exactly the same for the F. I wonder if the chops are the same for F in the first pos. as on the sixth? Actually you do modifie your airflow all the time when you play.

Another question, is mpc buzzing good? Are all of those that clame their benifit from it lieing or don´t they know what they are talking about? How do you know it is good? How do you know it´s not good? Some players have been buzzing for years, maybe 50 years, if the say it has been good for me, you must have some guts to tell them they are wrong. "It is not good!" How do you know that?

Are there a different ways to buzz?
Yes there is!

I used to do buzzing in a to much flexed way, to blow the clamped lips apart with kind of violent air. That was not good for my chops. Now I buzz with more air flow than I use when I play, both when free buzzing and buzzing in the mouthpiece.
I did have a discoussion with good player about buzzing for about 40 years ago. To buzz the way we did then did result in a bad sound. But that is not the only way to buzz. You can buzz another way. Focusing on the airflow.

[Basbasun]

On the other hand. If I play that F, and focus on the sound of that F while pulling the horn of the mpc/chops the F will still be there! Is the chops exactly the same? Well, I know they can´t be. But If didn´t know that I would say I think they are. If I play that F in just the mpc and going (focus on the sound and airflow ) into the horn the F will sound beautiful! (yes it will). Actually, the chops will automaticly modify, you may not know, and that is not important. I am loocing forward to a reply.

[FOSSIL]

In my next post i say : It works for me... Big time!
Dont You beleive it?

No, actually. Prove it. I want to see it.

And yeah, I'm not upset, as Chris Stearn might imply. But the video evidence from players vastly superior to me saying that buzzing is worthless (even when they end their video saying it's not worthless...) is more compelling than statements that say "no it works, trust me".

I haven't seen a video of someone freebuzzing "the right way", and I haven't seen a video of anyone doing any buzzing that transfers to the horn seamlessly.

Even Sam Burris made a video where he goes from free buzz to rim to mouthpiece to horn, and his corners change for each one.

Well, I have demonstrated it to Phil Smith in front of around 100 kids but I'm not about to spend time doing a video of it. I'm too busy redecorating the bathroom and as I said, why so much fuss ?

Chris

[harrisonreed]

I never put much thought into making a bathroom look nice, but I do recall the public toilet in the main airport in Ireland -- one wall was just an angled wall of cement you relieved yourself onto. No dividers. No flowing water. The sinks were just ring troughs a few feet away. I remember clearly thinking "was this built by the Harkonnens?" So perhaps there is a line somewhere.

I suppose the bathroom would be a good spot to hang the ubiquitous painting of the crying boy that caused houses across the UK to burn down in the 70s. You could stare up at him, and he could judge you from on high.

I prefer a bleak room, for a bleak business. Maybe a spare mouthpiece for buzzing on the pot. The Japanese do it right -- sterile, watertight, with a drain in the floor. No matter how bad it gets, you can hose the entire room down, with you in it, and then hop in the tub.

What decorations are in vogue in the UK for bathrooms? Mine currently only has a toilet brush shaped like a black cat.

The flip side to the Harkonnen latrine was a bathroom in the restaurant called "On The Border" which was highly decorated with sombreros and had very aggressive and loud mariachi music playing. I think we had three dudes all suffering the same gastric symptoms in each stall, and I for one was holding back stifled laughs, tears, and gasps for air (read into that one) at the hilarity of it all. those poor mariachis didn't know what they were being paid to play for. Those poor mariachis

But the laugh was on me. I was the one crying in a stall, wondering how my lunch had already left me when half of it was still on my plate back at the table, between two like minded fellows, my hand over my face in shame interjected by shudders of suppressed laughter, all as the mariachis played their tune. They did get paid after all. At least, I assume they did.

[FOSSIL]

Ooooohhhhh..... too long in Japan....the defecation obsession has taken over
Was that the Republic of Ireland ?? If it was, and it was Dublin, you may technically have still been on American soil, if you know what I mean.

Chris

[PosauneCat]

A great analogy, Doug.

This might not make sense to everybody, but have you ever tried running on a sloped surface, where one foot is constantly higher than the other? Or on a curb, with your right foot hitting the curb and your left foot in the gutter?

It's running...

[PosauneCat]

This discussion has confirmed much of what I already believe. I don’t see the three discrete elements that manifest a fully functional embouchure being your face, the mouthpiece, and the horn. The mouthpiece is part of the horn, albeit interchangeable. So that reduces the equation to: face + horn = practical embouchure.

I would never go so far as to say mpc buzzing is useless for everyone. These days I think if you find something that helps you and doesn’t create any secondary or consequential problems, do it!

I’ve tried complicated and simple. Simple is better.

MPC (these are my initials by the way, not an abbreviation of mouthpiece).

[PosauneCat]

I used to think free buzzing was just a parlor trick! Something trumpet players did just to impress you. However, Doug has shown me the real value of it and it is really helping me to understand the mechanics of my face! It does not come naturally to me and I have to practice it daily to improve it. But, I clearly see it’s relationship to actual playing and find particularly useful in showing me how the embouchure muscles work (i.e. what muscles need more tension, which need more relaxation. It’s a balancing act). For me learning to do it right has been a slow and often frustrating experience, but I can feel the value of it.

Freebuzzing is extremely useful when done a particular way - I do it and teach it.

[harrisonreed]

Ooooohhhhh..... too long in Japan....the defecation obsession has taken over
Was that the Republic of Ireland ?? If it was, and it was Dublin, you may technically have still been on American soil, if you know what I mean.

Chris

I think it was Dublin, yeah!

[FOSSIL]

Ha Ha !!! Dublin airport.... it's BIG. That bit must have been under construction....Only in France do you see an otherwise civilised nation give up on the challenge of public toilets, especially in airports.

Chris

[Tbone00]

Massimo La Rosa is another big fan of mouthpiece buzzing and it seems that for him it has worked at least.

[harrisonreed]

Massimo La Rosa is another big fan of mouthpiece buzzing and it seems that for him it has worked at least.

[LeTromboniste]

Ha Ha !!! Dublin airport.... it's BIG. That bit must have been under construction....Only in France do you see an otherwise civilised nation give up on the challenge of public toilets, especially in airports.

Chris

Don't forget about Italy...

And yeah, I'm not upset, as Chris Stearn might imply. But the video evidence from players vastly superior to me saying that buzzing is worthless (even when they end their video saying it's not worthless...) is more compelling than statements that say "no it works, trust me".

Yeah but there's also a number of players vastly superior to you or me who swear by mouthpiece buzzing so...

Years ago, Jorgen van Rijen led my then-flatmate to do a mouthpiece buzzing exercise in a masterclass. With 5 or 10 minutes of the exercise there was a massive improvement in the consistency of his tone that everyone in the hall could hear. It was like the doors had been blasted wide open to a facet of his playing.

Admittedly I don't use much mouthpiece buzzing, and no free buzzing at all (free buzzing has never worked for me). I used to mouthpiece buzz quite a lot every day but not with a clear purpose, and realised it wasn't really helping, and if anything it was impeding things. Now I use it sparingly as a specific tool for very specific purposes, rather occasionally, and it's really helping in that specific role.

[Doug Elliott]

How many times have I heard "free buzzing has never worked for me"
I hear that from virtually every person who has a lesson from me, and yet by the end of the lesson they are freebuzzing, usually pretty well.

[BGuttman]

I've found that when I'm out of practice both mouthpiece buzzing and free buzzing don't work. In that case I'm depending on the resistance of the instrument to help keep the buzz working. I can get the mouthpiece buzz working by putting a finger partly over the end of the mouthpiece (increases back pressure). When I practice it seems the free buzz and the mouthpiece buzz work much better. I still can't buzz wide ranges or intricate songs, but I'm not trying to earn my living doing this.

[PosauneCat]

I certainly can't say I am doing it well yet, but it is getting better. In particular it has shown me the function of those muscles at the base of the corners of the mouth as well as the position of the lips in relation to one another. The fact that it's taking me so long to be able to do it well probably indicates I have some significant, perhaps insurmountable, embouchure problems. Given that I stopped playing about 30 years ago and am about to turn 62 in a week, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to play again. But, at least I'm learning a lot.

Message to you younger guys: NEVER STOP PLAYING, even if your interests take you in a different direction, like me. I guarantee you WILL want to try to play again when you get older and lemme tell ya...IT SUX. It's a lot easier to maintain it than to try to get it back!

How many times have I heard "free buzzing has never worked for me"
I hear that from virtually every person who has a lesson from me, and yet by the end of the lesson they are freebuzzing, usually pretty well.

[Savio]

Buzzing again? I wonder if someone use the method Jeff Reynolds do. That was a bit of a garden snake he cut of and put on the mouthpiece. I find that method easier to make the low register. Good for me since I have trouble with buzzing in that area.

Leif

[BGuttman]

I think you are referring to the F.A.R.T. (Forced Air Resistance Tube) that Ralph Sauer claimed to have invented. I used a 9 inch (225 mm) length of heater hose to make mine. Sauer also suggested putting a hole somewhere around 6 inches (150 mm) down the tube to use like the finger hole on a Baroque trumpet.

[Basbasun]

Buzzing again? I did a search for Buzzing. Search found 597 matches. From 2010 and on.
There are many oppinions on this matter, a never ending story. How many of you have shanged your oppinion since 2010?

[baileyman]

I've found that when I'm out of practice both mouthpiece buzzing and free buzzing don't work. In that case I'm depending on the resistance of the instrument to help keep the buzz working. I can get the mouthpiece buzz working by putting a finger partly over the end of the mouthpiece (increases back pressure). When I practice it seems the free buzz and the mouthpiece buzz work much better. I still can't buzz wide ranges or intricate songs, but I'm not trying to earn my living doing this.

Buzzing can seem to require lots of effort, but that may just be trying at the wrong pitch. There is always a pitch that requires minimum effort, and it seems to be usually around partial 3, but it could be somewhere else. How much effort? Sometimes I think it's zero.

Anyway, if you can find a minimum effort pitch, then if you can warble it a bit up and down, then that's a step toward a full range low effort freebuzz.

I'd recommend tongue tuning to warble the pitch, as muscular contractions to move it can create much unhappiness.

[harrisonreed]

Partial 3 on a mouthpiece would be an insanely high note. None of the pitches that come out of buzzing a mouthpiece are partials, when the fundamental of a 3 inch long tube is already extremely high.

[timothy42b]

I never put much thought into making a bathroom look nice, but I do recall the public toilet in the main airport in Ireland -- one wall was just an angled wall of cement you relieved yourself onto. No dividers. No flowing water.

I was a little surprised at the bathroom in the main bus station at Wuerzburg Germany. I'd never seen that kind of flowing wall toilet - just a nicely done marble looking wall, about 30 feet long, with a sheet of water continuously flowing down it into a gutter.

At Oktoberfest in Munich, bathrooms had a trough with flowing water serving the same purpose.

Both of those are male centric, I don't know what the female bathrooms looked like. And I've never used the Japanese squat toilet but I can see why they do it that way.

[Bach5G]

I think you are referring to the F.A.R.T. (Forced Air Resistance Tube) that Ralph Sauer claimed to have invented. I used a 9 inch (225 mm) length of heater hose to make mine. Sauer also suggested putting a hole somewhere around 6 inches (150 mm) down the tube to use like the finger hole on a Baroque trumpet.

Jeff Reynolds, on the other hand, recommends a 6” length of poly tubing, no hole. Short enough to avoid setting up a harmonic series (I’m going from memory here) says JR. I made mine from clear poly irrigation piping, at about a dollar a foot from the local hardware store.

Because the tubing is clear, after a while you see stuff growing inside the tube. Time to soak them in a bit of bleach and hot water.

I buzz but I’m not evangelical about it.

[Wilktone]

The topic of this thread I think is supposed to be mouthpiece buzzing. It's evolved into discussing free/lip buzzing (somewhat related) and bathrooms.

Those of you who do a lot of mouthpiece buzzing:

I don't mouthpiece buzz. I rarely use it when teaching. I think it has some limited value, but feel there are other things that provide more benefit with less risk.

Do you think your mouthpiece placement and musculature is EXACTLY the same as when you are blowing through the horn?

Can't be. Buzzing on the mouthpiece alone removes the resonant feedback we get from the instrument. Advocates for mouthpiece buzzing are trying to exploit this difference, I think. Or at least that's the idea.

James Markey gets at it from a different angle.

I didn't get the impression he was talking about mouthpiece buzzing, but rather using the term "buzzing" to describe the vibrating lips.

Trombone playing is not like sprinting or any athletic activity. It's a fine motor skill, muscles that easily over stressed and blown out from over work, which is what buzzing is.

Well, it's both fine motor skill and muscular strength and control. Take a month or three off and we loose our range and endurance, which suggests there's more physical conditioning to it than I think you give credit.

Ask Phil Smith about what he thinks buzzing did to his career.

An hour and a half of mouthpiece buzzing? That is the over work stress that you're talking about above, Harrison. That doesn't surprise me that he feels it caused problems.

I still like his own coin reference. How are you going to cut the coin in half alongg the edge, really polish up only one half of it, and then expect to put the coin back together and use it?

I wouldn't take that expression too literally. It's really more of a tripod, if you add the tonguing. And I guess we'd also have to add slide technique to the mix too, so it's more of a four sided die. I really don't think anyone is suggesting that you can't work on one element of trombone technique while putting others on the back burner for a bit.

I haven't seen a video of someone freebuzzing "the right way", and I haven't seen a video of anyone doing any buzzing that transfers to the horn seamlessly.

If I firm my lips and then place the mouthpiece on them with playing pressure without buzzing or starting to play the lips get shoved around a bit simply from the pressure of the mouthpiece alone. I don't think that we're going to find a perfect example where someone buzzes into the instrument and everything will look exactly the same from free buzz to playing.

But I do feel for many players that sort of practice (done correctly and an appropriate amount) can be very beneficial. Again, if you do an hour and a half of it you're probably going to wreck your chops.

As some one said "if I play an F as beautiful I can" and take the horn away from the mpc/mouth there will not be any sound. If I don´t blow a little harder, or flex my chops a little. If iI play the F and take away the horn/mpc from my chops still blowing, there is only air no tone, if I am still blowing and put the horn/mpc back on my chops the F is back

Right, when we remove the resonance feedback from the horn we have to adjust how we're blowing and forming the embouchure in order to keep the buzz going. The question is whether this is useful to practice. For mouthpiece buzzing, I would lean towards not helpful.

Years ago, Jorgen van Rijen led my then-flatmate to do a mouthpiece buzzing exercise in a masterclass. With 5 or 10 minutes of the exercise there was a massive improvement in the consistency of his tone that everyone in the hall could hear. It was like the doors had been blasted wide open to a facet of his playing.

One of my mentors, John Seidel, used to use mouthpiece buzzing with his students all the time. He would have us play a few phrases of a Rochut (or something similar), buzz it on the mouthpiece, and then immediately play it again on the instrument. There was almost always an immediate improvement in tone. I believe that it was partly due to getting the player to coordinate air, embouchure, and ear better.

I've found in my own teaching that the results of this mouthpiece buzzing exercise don't last for very long. This can lead a student to keep repeating the mouthpiece buzzing to the point of where it's no longer very helpful and possibly harmful. But sometimes I will use this exercise if a student is feeling frustrated and needs a quick boost in confidence.

Buzzing again? I did a search for Buzzing. Search found 597 matches. From 2010 and on.
There are many oppinions on this matter, a never ending story. How many of you have shanged your oppinion since 2010?

I'm open to changing my mind. In 2017 Jason Beghtol completed his dissertation study, "The Effect Of A Researcher Composed Mouthpiece Buzzing Routine On The Intonation And Tone Quality Of Beginning Band Brass Students." I don't recall from the full paper whether or not he thought he would find significant results going into the study, but the end result was no real difference between the mouthpiece buzzing brass students and the control group. That would suggest that perhaps mouthpiece buzzing isn't as helpful as many seem to feel, at least for beginning students over the course of a year.

Dave

[Bach5G]

Shooting skeet eight hours a month was excellent training for them. It trained them to shoot skeet.

--Joseph Heller, Catch-22.