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Looks like the Gen II 88H valve cap. Wonder if they just used that rotor with different port arrangement.

There's more thought put that horn then the 88HNV. Sorta goes to proving my point where Selmers priorities are.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:44 pm Looks like the Gen II 88H valve cap. Wonder if they just used that rotor with different port arrangement.

From Bach:
"Peter Steiner - .562" traditional rotor with open-port X-brace wrap. The wrap design is compact for opera pit work, allows an open feel with its straight tubes, and the X-gives an additional bracing point for center and projection. Water dump is quick through the rotor. Rotor is based on the Conn Gen 2 with improved portage."

That valve cover definitely looks like the Conn Gen 2, which I think is the same one used on the Benge Trombones as well.

I still have no idea why Bach didn't decide to improve their valve long ago, but then again, Bach's motto always seems to have been "we designed it so well in the past that we never have to redesign it".

They do the X-wrap but don't add the B pull feature from the kissbone? Lame.

Oh wait both of those things would be stealing someone else's idea. Or is it OK because it's Bach?

Wow... Lightweight brass version available... Lots of other options too..

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:44 pm Looks like the Gen II 88H valve cap. Wonder if they just used that rotor with different port arrangement.

I think It’s just the King 4B valve. Old wine in new bottles.

Looks like the Kiss bone wrap.

whitbey wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:55 am Looks like the Kiss bone wrap.

Yeah, but without the key feature! How could you leave out the B pull?

For spring 2021 Bach is offering these new A47 Artisan trombone options:

25 hand slides
Bore: .525", .525-.547", .547", .547-.562", .562"
Metal options:

• all brass with nickel oversleeves like 42

• LW brass

• brass w/nickel crook

• LW brass w/nickel crook

• LW all-nickel like LT42

A47 hand slides now include 3 threaded leadpipes

14 bells

• B47 - Artisan mandrel: brass, gold brass, or LW gold brass, with flat rim wire

• B42 - Stradivarius mandrel: brass, gold brass, or LW gold brass, with standard rim wire

• B88 - Conn mandrel: rose brass

All available with fixed or screw flare. Screw bell hard case is available.

3 valvesets and...
A47BO - rotary, standard wrap
A47X - rotary, X-wrap
A47I - infinity axial
A47 - straight neckpipe

3 tuning slides
brass, gold brass, nickel

The Peter Steiner model A47XPS includes .547" standard hand slide, SB47GLW LW gold brass bell with screw flare, X-valveset, brass tuning slide and hard case. Also available as A47X with yellow brass fixed bell.

Mannnnnnnn I gotta know what's up with that B88 bell

tombone21 wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 7:35 pm Mannnnnnnn I gotta know what's up with that B88 bell

Hmm. B88 bell - Conn mandrel: rose brass. Perhaps Conn trombones will eventually blend into Bach? I think Conn-Selmer believes that Bach is their strongest brand name.

General Motors dumped Pontiac and Olds, Buick will be next; Ford dumped Mercury, Lincoln may be next; Chrysler dumped DeSoto, Plymouth, and (pretty much) Dodge.

It may be that C-S wants to streamline the trombone catalog, and offer lots of "custom" options for the Bach line of trombones that could incorporate former Bach (and King?) features.

Note that there are no more Holton trombones, only a few Holton French horns left, perhaps a few baritones, euphoniums, & tubas. Conn and King trumpets, etc. are (I think) now pretty rare. How many brands of tubas does C-S want to sell? ... Corporate watchword: Simplify in hard times!

Anyone here have any inside information or juicy gossip / speculation?

They still sell a lot of 88H’s and 3B’s; they are even coming out with a new 88H variant, so I don’t thing the Conn or King brands are going anywhere, especially since Conn is half the the name of the company.
They are trying to compete with Shires and Edwards, but they don’t want to make the investment in making the infinite variety of bells that those companies do; offering the Conn mandrel is an inexpensive way to give more options. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Artisan” mandrel was simply a Holton or King mandrel they already laying around.
The big bucks for them are school and marching instruments. They make way more money pushing a sale of 6 $8000 sousaphones out the door to a high school or university than they do on a Peter Steiner trombone.
It is sad, though, CS has pretty well destroyed a lot of great brands and models through the years all in the name of corporate streamlining.

Conn Sousas sound good though, FWIW

Egads that price is steep. (Showing $5300 at Hornguys now... you could have Matthew Walker handbuild a completely custom horn for that money, no?)

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 12:06 amNote that there are no more Holton trombones, only a few Holton French horns left, perhaps a few baritones, euphoniums, & tubas. Conn and King trumpets, etc. are (I think) now pretty rare. How many brands of tubas does C-S want to sell? ... Corporate watchword: Simplify in hard times!

Anyone here have any inside information or juicy gossip / speculation?

Is Holton officially dead? Last I heard they'd moved production into the Elkhart facility with a smattering of Bach components.

Also curious to know what's going on in Eastlake; I remember reading that facility was closed for COVID last summer but I assume they still want to sell some school tubas for this fall.

There are no Holton trombones on their website anymore. I think C-S mostly bought Leblanc for its woodwind brands and decided to let the Holton name die on the vine.

chromebone wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:50 am There are no Holton trombones on their website anymore. I think C-S mostly bought Leblanc for its woodwind brands and decided to let the Holton name die on the vine.

Still on the website. I know the Holton bass trombone actually sells pretty well and is one of the top selling bass bones for schools still.

I tried the sort by brand and there wasn’t even a category for Holton Trombones under the Holton brand name. Maybe C-S could use the money they’re saving by recycling old designs and upgrade their sorry website a little.

They haven't added the new Bach or Conn trombones to the site yet, it seems. And the Bach 39 alto isn't listed anywhere I can find - has it been discontinued, or is their website just bad?

The 47 bell flare is a custom flare, modeled after a Mt Vernon 42 with a bit narrower bell throat, different thickness profile, and a French bead. It's not something they had lying around.

The new 88 bell compatibility is just them trying to compete with the boutiques. You can mix and match the "Bach" and "Conn" components with Shires, why not with the real thing?

I think the 39 has been discontinued, it used to be on the site and I don’t see any dealers with any in stock. they were selling way more 34/36 h’s. The 39 is a great sounding horn, but it’s a beast to play in tune.

And yes, their website is just awful. Really inexcusable for such a large company. They don’t update it, it’s not attractive to look at, and it’s difficult to navigate.

So, I wasn't interested in this horn until now. Since they added an Conn 88 bell as an option, and I could get a dual bore .547/.562 slide with axial flow valve, that makes me raise an eyebrow. That sort of price point is way above what my wife would let me spend on a trombone though!

chromebone wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:53 am I think the 39 has been discontinued, it used to be on the site and I don’t see any dealers with any in stock. they were selling way more 34/36 h’s. The 39 is a great sounding horn, but it’s a beast to play in tune.

And yes, their website is just awful. Really inexcusable for such a large company. They don’t update it, it’s not attractive to look at, and it’s difficult to navigate.

Hickeys still has it listed.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:42 am Egads that price is steep. (Showing $5300 at Hornguys now... you could have Matthew Walker handbuild a completely custom horn for that money, no?)

Yeah but it's what Peter Steiner plays!

I could play Joe Alessi's horn and still not sound like Joe Alessi

When are the 50’s going to get some love?

Andrew

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 6:23 pm When are the 50’s going to get some love?

Andrew

I think they are so much lower volume than the 42s that it's pretty far down the order. I'd love to see a HUGE streamlining of that particular model range...

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 6:23 pm When are the 50’s going to get some love?

Andrew

I found 50 love in the new 50AF3 with Infinity rotors and Euro bracing. The 50AF3 bells are modular like Artisan and they offer 4 diff. 50 bells in 2 sizes. 50 and LT50 hand slides now have optional threaded leadpipes, and if you substitute an Artisan .562" hand slide, there are even more hand slide options.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:42 am Egads that price is steep. (Showing $5300 at Hornguys now... you could have Matthew Walker handbuild a completely custom horn for that money, no?)

I had the same thought (substitute Mick Rath for Matthew Walker).

You have to wonder whether there is enough of a market for modular horns in the $5k+ bracket to justify this range and whether those looking to buy in that price category will prefer Bach over the many other options.

Good luck to them, I‘d love to try one but based on other Bach instruments I‘ve tried in showrooms over the years but I’d have a hard time shelling out a retail price of 6000€+ i.e. the same as other Artisan models over here in Germany, even the ‚offer price’ of 4400€ that other Artisan models are available for would be hard to justify.

Is there any reason to suggest the Artisan range has a better QA and consistency than the standard range?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:52 am The 47 bell flare is a custom flare, modeled after a Mt Vernon 42 with a bit narrower bell throat, different thickness profile, and a French bead. It's not something they had lying around.

The new 88 bell compatibility is just them trying to compete with the boutiques. You can mix and match the "Bach" and "Conn" components with Shires, why not with the real thing?

Are the 88 Bell option a two piece (like a real Conn) or a one piece like a Bach?

Tbarh wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 12:14 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 8:52 am The 47 bell flare is a custom flare, modeled after a Mt Vernon 42 with a bit narrower bell throat, different thickness profile, and a French bead. It's not something they had lying around.

The new 88 bell compatibility is just them trying to compete with the boutiques. You can mix and match the "Bach" and "Conn" components with Shires, why not with the real thing?

Are the 88 Bell option a two piece (like a real Conn) or a one piece like a Bach?

Assuming here, but it's probably literally an gen II 88H flare with a slightly different receiver and Artisan mounting hardware. Spun just like all the others but ends up in a different place in the factory. No need to make it complicated!

They don't even need to change the TS receiver, they are the same. I had a 42G bell interchangable on my 88H for a while. It's back on a 42T now.

IIRC Old man Bach took measurements from the Conn's at the time when designing his Trombones so it seems we have just come full circle.

I’m excited for the new possibilities. I’ve always wanted an 88H bell on a Bach setup. There are definitely players that after trying modern boutique brands end up going back to (usually heavily modified) Bach or Conn setups. The sounds are classic, but the lack of options lead to experimenting in repair shops. Excited to try to some direct from the factory, especially the new .525 slides, when I can.

RJMason wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 8:59 am I’m excited for the new possibilities. I’ve always wanted an 88H bell on a Bach setup. There are definitely players that after trying modern boutique brands end up going back to (usually heavily modified) Bach or Conn setups. The sounds are classic, but the lack of options lead to experimenting in repair shops. Excited to try to some direct from the factory, especially the new .525 slides, when I can.

I'm definitely one of those people. I played a Bach 42 for awhile, then I swapped out a Shires slide, etc. until I ultimately ended up on the Shires "Conn 88" setup with a 2RVET7 + Rotor + T47LW. So far that's been the horn I've had in my stable the longest... ever. I think I've had that same setup for 7 or so years now.

I played around with some other setups while I still had the Bach parts and the "standard" parts of the setup definitely worked better for me on either of them. I had a 42 bell mounted for Shires, Shires Thayer valve, TB47YC and the other set of components. Both setups played well, but when I started mixing and matching parts... not so much. 2RVET7 + Thayer + TB47 was absolutely awful for me.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 12:35 am

Tbarh wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 12:14 am
Are the 88 Bell option a two piece (like a real Conn) or a one piece like a Bach?

Assuming here, but it's probably literally an gen II 88H flare with a slightly different receiver and Artisan mounting hardware. Spun just like all the others but ends up in a different place in the factory. No need to make it complicated!

Exactly... I thaught so too... Makes it more of a Conn than a Bach then..

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 11:55 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:42 am Egads that price is steep. (Showing $5300 at Hornguys now... you could have Matthew Walker handbuild a completely custom horn for that money, no?)

I had the same thought (substitute Mick Rath for Matthew Walker).

You have to wonder whether there is enough of a market for modular horns in the $5k+ bracket to justify this range and whether those looking to buy in that price category will prefer Bach over the many other options.

Good luck to them, I‘d love to try one but based on other Bach instruments I‘ve tried in showrooms over the years but I’d have a hard time shelling out a retail price of 6000€+ i.e. the same as other Artisan models over here in Germany, even the ‚offer price’ of 4400€ that other Artisan models are available for would be hard to justify.

Is there any reason to suggest the Artisan range has a better QA and consistency than the standard range?

The problem here is... when you want to sound like a Bach it really kinda has to be a Bach. Tried making an Edwards sound like a 50B for years. Even put a 50B flare on it. Sounded pretty good. Got closer. Eventually found a Bach and spent near this amount making it into what I wanted it to be.

So, yes, there is a market. How big is it and how well will they be able to fill it? That is the question.

Cheers,
Andy

I think the amount of equipment wonks is heavily over-represented here (*cough* me *cough*). There are a lot of people who just want to pick up a horn that plays reasonably well and make no decisions or only decisions they find to be minimally predictive such as bell material. There's really nothing inherently wrong with either approach but yeah... if I had the cash and wanted to drop it on a horn, I'd probably not reach for modular Bach offerings first. But who knows, maybe these things blow the socks off of people and everyone starts playing them.

There's 3 modular makers (Bach Artisan, Shires, Edwards) and three boutique fixed makers (Schilke Greenhoe, M&W, BAC) plus a smattering of euro brands. Surely there's not enough market share to go around. This feels like a passion project for a Conn-selmer executive there is no way they are going to recoup tooling and development costs anytime soon.

skeletal wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 6:49 pm There's 3 modular makers (Bach Artisan, Shires, Edwards) and three boutique fixed makers (Schilke Greenhoe, M&W, BAC) plus a smattering of euro brands. Surely there's not enough market share to go around. This feels like a passion project for a Conn-selmer executive there is no way they are going to recoup tooling and development costs anytime soon.

I'm sure they have more access to the sales numbers than our guesses.

skeletal wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 6:49 pm There's 3 modular makers (Bach Artisan, Shires, Edwards) and three boutique fixed makers (Schilke Greenhoe, M&W, BAC)

Just to clarify... M&W do both detachable and non-detachable bells. Customer choice. And screw bells for both options as well.

And for what it's worth, if you look at the horn in question, it is made up of pretty much standard Conn and Bach parts. Obviously the wrap is new, but that isn't "terribly" expensive to tool up for. A couple grand, if that. (depending on if Bach have machining capabilities on site, or if they have tooling made for them.)

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 8:28 pmAnd for what it's worth, if you look at the horn in question, it is made up of pretty much standard Conn and Bach parts. Obviously the wrap is new, but that isn't "terribly" expensive to tool up for. A couple grand, if that. (depending on if Bach have machining capabilities on site, or if they have tooling made for them.)

Which makes the listed price tag that much more confusing. If the big innovation here is the ability to mix-and-match their existing components... that's cool, I guess, but is it more than five grand cool?

No, you guys don't get it -- it's Peter Steiner! I heard the horn comes with a certificate promising that he playtested it for at least an hour, they didn't clean it afterwards, and that a small piece of his robe/bones/ash is integrated into a hidden reliquary within the rotor casing.

It also promises that they'll do a free update to B pull on the borrowed kissbone wrap once they figure out the bugs -- that's new territory and no one has done that before.

IMO Steiner made the wrong move switching to Bach just like Alessi made the wrong move switching to Shires. Maybe it was a better business deal, but it wasn’t a better deal for their sounds...

I am not writing this in response to the Steiner model which obviously I haven’t played (nor has anyone else here from what I gather). But generally speaking and in my very humble opinion I feel Conn Selmer has one major problem:

They can not seem to fix the fact that they are producing horns that are not as good as horns with the same brand names (although very different ownership/built etc) that were built 30, 40 or more years ago. That is not to say they are doing a bad job of course. But if the legacy is bigger than their current product, that is a problem.

When I think of professional colleagues I had the chance play with or next to, I’d say the majority plays Edwards or Shires. Of those who I know to play Bach 42/50 models, I’d say the majority of them plays horns that are old(vintage) or heavily modified/improved horns (Greenhoe comes to mind). I can not think of too many people I play or played with who play Stock Bachs, made within the last 20 or so years.

What all of them have in common is their love for this classic and unique Bach sound that often has been discussed. I am not working in the instrument building industry and I am sure there are many good reasons for why they do what they do in terms of marketing and product release that I just don’t understand because of a lack of information but I can not help but think that it would make more sense to improve their quality standards to what they were decades ago, rather than trying to join the competition for custom horn options which they will not be able to succeed in against the many options Shires and Edwards and others offer.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 7:21 pm

TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 6:23 pm When are the 50’s going to get some love?

Andrew

I think they are so much lower volume than the 42s that it's pretty far down the order. I'd love to see a HUGE streamlining of that particular model range...

Same here. I remember playing a 50AF3 a few years ago and was impressed. Played another, not so much. Ended up going with a Shires Curran model

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 9:32 am I think the amount of equipment wonks is heavily over-represented here (*cough* me *cough*).

My thoughts exactly. I find that folks (pros and hobbyists alike) who join a dedicated forum for ANY topic are not representative of the average user. I have read these same sentiments on a whole host of other topics/sites over the years - few probably more pronounced than early-2000s car audio which had an assortment of boutique brands competing with a large number of national brands.

I cannot draw conclusions about CS’s sales, but can assume there are still plenty of schools and parents who are more comfortable with a “national name brand.” …perhaps even ESPECIALLY when the horn is in on the high end price wise. That contingent is likely far less than it was prior to the abundance of info/resources online to be sure, but I personally imagine it’s still a commonality among many making financial/purchasing decisions.

All that said, I also feel the $5k is relative. We could be talking about tubas, bassoons, pianos, cellos, harps, etc.

Personally I generally like my horns to be used and look used. I prefer even then to find something lesser known. But if I were ever in the market for a new horn, I know myself and I’d want a ton of obscure custom options - even though there is no way my playing would be able to showcase the subtle differences - all configurations would still sound like someone who has no need for a $5k horn lol.

Cheers

olivegreenink wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 6:00 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 9:32 am I think the amount of equipment wonks is heavily over-represented here (*cough* me *cough*).

I cannot draw conclusions about CS’s sales, but can assume there are still plenty of schools and parents who are more comfortable with a “national name brand.” …perhaps even ESPECIALLY when the horn is in on the high end price wise. That contingent is likely far less than it was prior to the abundance of info/resources online to be sure, but I personally imagine it’s still a commonality among many making financial/purchasing decisions.

All that said, I also feel the $5k is relative. We could be talking about tubas, bassoons, pianos, cellos, harps, etc.

Absolutely. Lots of people who are hobbyists and have the cash to burn too. $5k isn't all that much if you've been pulling in 150-250k a year for a decade and make an impulse purchase on vacation at ATW. It doesn't have to be the best horn for everyone, it just has to be liked by a couple dozen people at the right time every year. Probably not a huge obstacle to overcome when you're a name brand like Bach or Conn.