TromboneChat

The next chapter in Burgerbob's vintage tenors with strange valves is here:







That's right, a '57 in silver plate, changed leadpipe (though rest of slide is original), a straight gooseneck (not pictured), and an aluminum Thayer.

Slide is original width so it's a bit narrow... still playable for me, but I would presume not for many, and not especially comfortable. Inners have as much Conn wear as you would like to imagine. Lots. Action is pretty good though.

Only a few notes on it so far, but it has that Conn color to the sound right off the bat- actually a bit jarring coming from my 42B, in a good way.

For those that missed it, chapter 1 was a 4-digit early Elkhart 36 with a K valve-

Meh.

Looking forward to hearing you play this one!

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:44 pmMeh.

Agreed. I'd even ask "why"? Instrument known for light weight and narrow slides, and put a big solid wide chunk of metal on it.

tough crowd for no reason.

i think it looks cool - hope it plays great for you

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:57 pm tough crowd for no reason.

i think it looks cool - hope it plays great for you

Just the usual suspects, doing what they usually do!

It does play quite well.

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:57 pm tough crowd for no reason.

i think it looks cool - hope it plays great for you

Ditto. Owner an 88h longer than any horn (25 years - sold it last year). Still have a soft spot for it. This is cool!

It seems that a few folk could do with rewatching Bambi. “If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all.”

You can always fast forward through the sad part if it’s too much for ya.

While i would never think to do that modification to an 88H, now that it's done, it's done. How does it play?

Same goes for the 36 with the K valve.

My favorite thing about this is that it's not just an old 88H with a Thayer, it's a SILVER old 88H with a Thayer.

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:29 pm My favorite thing about this is that it's not just an old 88H with a Thayer, it's a SILVER old 88H with a Thayer.

Someone on facebook thought I should just add another Thayer to it. Double valve thayer 88H, anyone?

Nice. Weird 88H's are the stuff.

For some true weirdness you need the double Thayer and 2 plugin valves, one in each. As a side note I can't believe I haven't seen more odd valve combinations on here. No Thayer + rotary plugin?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:08 amSomeone on facebook thought I should just add another Thayer to it. Double valve thayer 88H, anyone?

My heart says yes but my brain says no. Actually wait, my heart says no too. But something in me is still saying yes. Send help.

Peacemate wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:53 amAs a side note I can't believe I haven't seen more odd valve combinations on here. No Thayer + rotary plugin?

Somebody had a Thayer/rotor dependent bass on here a while ago. I think it was a Yamaha?

Oh, spare me, really. Would you do this with your own money? No. Your own horn? No. Would you do it to make an 88h playable? No. The only reason to do this is to thumb your nose at people. You can buy any kind of horn you want set up this way right out of the box. Except an 88h, because as Aiden points out, it's a bad idea. No one would say anything if this were a MV 42, that might be an improvement. Or see who cries when you mount a pair of carbon fiber valves to a Williams 9.

Anyway, what's with that slide lock? There's a Conn bell flare and tuning slide, and a reportedly marginal handslide. Put the straight neckpipe in, and I'm sure it's a fun horn. Put a heavy bach bell on with a wider slide , and same thing. There are reasons you don't see that combination of components.

Finetales wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:06 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:08 amSomeone on facebook thought I should just add another Thayer to it. Double valve thayer 88H, anyone?

My heart says yes but my brain says no. Actually wait, my heart says no too. But something in me is still saying yes. Send help.

Peacemate wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:53 amAs a side note I can't believe I haven't seen more odd valve combinations on here. No Thayer + rotary plugin?

Somebody had a Thayer/rotor dependent bass on here a while ago. I think it was a Yamaha?

Yes, there is a Yamaha (I think) with an F Thayer and a dependent Rotor that Benn H. built for a customer.

There is also an Conn out there with an F Thayer and a dependent rotor built by somebody in Chicago (with a ton of other heavy duty mods). There is also floating around an ancient Beuscher TIS bass with an F rotor and a dependent Thayer built by Gary Hellick. He might still own it, I don't remember if he moved it or not. I can't find the pictures, but it had a very goofy way that you had to get the axial core out.

Cheers,
Andy

I actually have a friend who owns a Conn 88H with a Thayer, and while I did have the thought that it might be too free-blowing a valve to play on there, it felt pretty great! This was a couple of years ago, but from what I remember it was good, and it looked pretty sweet too!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:03 pm

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:57 pm tough crowd for no reason.

i think it looks cool - hope it plays great for you

Just the usual suspects, doing what they usually do!

It does play quite well.

Double MEH.

I don't think an Elkhart Conn 88H with a Thayer is all that strange. I have seen at least 4 or 5 of them over the years. People, especially professionals, can rebuild horns to suit their needs.

I know the Elkhart 88H is considered a sacred horn by many, but it is not perfect for all players. Some players do not like the original leadpipes. Some players like everything about it but the narrowness of the slide. Some people (myself included) only like to play them with a wider width/larger inside diameter "Bach 42 crook" installed on the slide. Some players (obviously, whoever previously owned this horn) think the old Elkhart rotor is not quite open enough and choose a different valve.

Another thing to consider is the history of the horn....we do not know the whole story. What if this horn suffered some type of trauma to the valve section? Why not rebuild it with a Thayer? If the Thayer doesn't suit the owner, they can put some other crazy valve on it if they wish. I have an Elkhart 88H bell that is mounted with a Benge 190 tuning slide crook, an Instrument Innovations rotary valve and Bach 42 slide receiver. For me, it plays FANTASTIC! I have had a few "Conn Purists" criticize me and the horn. When I tell them that the rest of the original 88H was destroyed when it was run over by a van, people change their tone quickly.

The beautiful thing about brass instruments is that we can customize them to our exact needs at a very affordable price. If it doesn't work out, we can try something different. The story of this 88H is still being told. What if BurgerBob or someone else returns it to the original design with the original parts or uses parts from another Elkhart 88H? Would that make the purists happy?

For me, the important point is....does the instrument play well for the owner? If it does not, the owner can sell it or try to modify it in a way that makes it play better for him/her. The owner can do whatever they want with the instrument and it is of no consequence to everyone else.

Thayer is a solid design, 88H is a nice open horn to begin with. The only thing I'd worry about is the narrow slide.

Not the sort of horn I'd seek out, but still super cool. Wonder what the story behind it is; silver-plating the valve section to match the rest of the horn is a bit of attention to detail that says this probably wasn't some mad tech slapping random parts together just to be provocative. Is the new leadpipe sized for standard large shank mouthpieces?

Fun! Congrats on the new toy.

Detective time - does the slide have a model stamp? I'm gonna guess it started as a complete 8H that someone made convertible to add the new valve. Receiver brace socket is a Bach part, and the rear brace looks like a wider Bach socket and brace slid over the narrower Conn flanged socket - this flange matches the tuning slide flanges, and an 8H would have this on the bell section already, whereas an 88H has nothing there. Whole valve section (with substitute slide receiver and male TS tube, obvs) from some generation of 42T?

While we're shouting objections into the void, couldn't the cat in your videos have more fur? Do better.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:04 am Fun! Congrats on the new toy.

Detective time - does the slide have a model stamp? I'm gonna guess it started as a complete 8H that someone made convertible to add the new valve. Receiver brace socket is a Bach part, and the rear brace looks like a wider Bach socket and brace slid over the narrower Conn flanged socket - this flange matches the tuning slide flanges, and an 8H would have this on the bell section already, whereas an 88H has nothing there. Whole valve section (with substitute slide receiver and male TS tube, obvs) from some generation of 42T?

While we're shouting objections into the void, couldn't the cat in your videos have more fur? Do better.

An 8H does make for better conversions. I know from experience.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:52 am Is the new leadpipe sized for standard large shank mouthpieces?

Thankfully, yes. Something press-fit has been soldered in that fits real mouthpieces!

ithinknot wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:04 am Fun! Congrats on the new toy.

Detective time - does the slide have a model stamp? I'm gonna guess it started as a complete 8H that someone made convertible to add the new valve.

You're right!



Here it is with the straight gooseneck. The bell brace location was moved on the bell.



It plays very well as an 8H, but without a counterweight it's unplayable for me for longer than a minute.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:04 am
While we're shouting objections into the void, couldn't the cat in your videos have more fur? Do better.

Jean-Luc says hello!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:45 am Thayer is a solid design, 88H is a nice open horn to begin with. The only thing I'd worry about is the narrow slide.

With the valve on (after I cleaned and oiled it) it doesn't feel "too" open like some horns can. I'm not getting any strange vibes, response issues, etc like I have on some 42s with Thayers. The narrow slide is a bummer... I'll have to see how it plays with a different 88H slide. If it still works, I might have one rebuilt with a Shires nickel tenor crook. I'll probably leave this '57 slide original.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:39 am Oh, spare me, really. Would you do this with your own money? No. Your own horn? No. Would you do it to make an 88h playable? No. The only reason to do this is to thumb your nose at people. You can buy any kind of horn you want set up this way right out of the box. Except an 88h, because as Aiden points out, it's a bad idea.

Well, someone had it modified and played it a bunch... so there's that.

I have plenty of spare Conn counterweights if you find yourself looking. They're all Elkhart vintage

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:42 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:52 am Is the new leadpipe sized for standard large shank mouthpieces?

Thankfully, yes. Something press-fit has been soldered in that fits real mouthpieces!

Pfft, "real" mouthpieces. As we all know the only authentic way to play is on an all-original Elkhart 88H with one of those tulip Remington pieces.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:24 pm

Pfft, "real" mouthpieces. As we all know the only authentic way to play is on an all-original Elkhart 88H with one of those tulip Remington pieces.

Hey, someone out there is still subjecting themselves to that!

And what's wrong with the Remington? It was good enough for a whole generation (or two!) of serious professionals. The Bach 5G became popular because of it.

That said, I use a small shank Remington on my Conn 40H. Works nice there.

Aidan, if you don't like the width of an 8H slide, how do you deal with smaller bores? Some of them are almost an inch narrower!

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:54 pm

Aidan, if you don't like the width of an 8H slide, how do you deal with smaller bores? Some of them are almost an inch narrower!

Totally fine with a rotor or straight gooseneck, not as much with a Thayer (or K valve on a 36- same issue).

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:54 pm And what's wrong with the Remington?

Nothing AFAIK, but it's not necessarily the best choice for everyone. It's great that there are so many different options to choose from nowadays.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:47 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:54 pm And what's wrong with the Remington?

Nothing AFAIK, but it's not necessarily the best choice for everyone. It's great that there are so many different options to choose from nowadays.

I played a Remington for several years, since it was what came with my Elkhart 88h. About 11th grade, my teacher switched me to a Bach 5g and then a Schilke 51. The rim profiles of the Remingtons were really rounded - really domed up in the middle, which makes them feel sharp on your lip. The flatter rims felt much better. Of course I was in high school, and didn't really get the whole Remington leadpipe thing. I screwed the Bach and Schilkes in hard enough that the leadpipe eventually conformed.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:54 pm And what's wrong with the Remington? It was good enough for a whole generation (or two!) of serious professionals. The Bach 5G became popular because of it.

That said, I use a small shank Remington on my Conn 40H. Works nice there.

What's wrong with the [original, large-shank] Remington? Perhaps nothing objectively "wrong" - but it sure doesn't work for many (most?) trombonists. Shortly after I purchased my Conn 88H in 1972, I was advised by some local pros to play something else. I tried a Bach 6½AL (and, briefly, a Bach 5g) without too much success, then found my "holy grail" with a long-shank Schilke 51 that fit in the 88H receiver and played (for me) much better than the Remington. I've never figured out what it was about the Remington that didn't work for me. [Perhaps the (V-type) cup shape? Too-small throat? Backbore?] I've since played several large-shank mouthpieces that I like, from different manufacturers. So, because it's supposed to be a classic, I've pulled out the Remington time after time to compare - it's still a no-go for me.

Surprisingly, like Bruce Guttman, I have tried a small-shank Remington and have found that it works just fine on my Conn 79H. Go figure!

Funnily, in 11th Grade my teacher switched me TO a Remington. He was a Remington alumnus. Later I moved to something bigger since I liked playing bass trombone parts. I can still play the Bolero solo on a Bach 4C.

The OG Remington is oddly small for a medium/large tenor, especially nowadays. The throat is smaller than anything else you could really care to name.

Did it work 50, 60 years ago? Sure. Something with the same dimensions in small shank (is the small shank Remington this way?) would probably be just fine on a small horn, as said above.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:49 pm The OG Remington is oddly small for a medium/large tenor, especially nowadays. The throat is smaller than anything else you could really care to name.

Did it work 50, 60 years ago? Sure. Something with the same dimensions in small shank (is the small shank Remington this way?) would probably be just fine on a small horn, as said above.

60 years ago a "large bore" mouthpiece was a 6 1/2 AL. Most tenor players were on 7C, 11C, or 12C. I remember going from shop to shop trying to find something in small shank larger than my Remington. Eventually found a 4C.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:56 pm ]

60 years ago a "large bore" mouthpiece was a 6 1/2 AL. Most tenor players were on 7C, 11C, or 12C. I remember going from shop to shop trying to find something in small shank larger than my Remington. Eventually found a 4C.

A 6.5AL is larger than the Remington in most ways... I'd definitely choose one over a Remington.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:04 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:56 pm
60 years ago a "large bore" mouthpiece was a 6 1/2 AL. Most tenor players were on 7C, 11C, or 12C. I remember going from shop to shop trying to find something in small shank larger than my Remington. Eventually found a 4C.

A 6.5AL is larger than the Remington in most ways... I'd definitely choose one over a Remington.

Dunno. My teacher at the time could play a trigger pedal C on his 88H using a Remington. Also, my Remington was larger in rim diameter than my 6.5 AL (yes, I had one).

The "original" large-shank Remington 5CL mouthpiece that was supplied with my 1972 Conn 88H is indeed unusual (and surprisingly small) by today's standards. I don't have my measuring tools handy, but I believe the Remington's (rather funnel-shaped) cup had an inner rim diameter of about 25.65mm (similar to a Bach 5GB or a Schilke 51) but with a much smaller throat (6.15mm - vs 7.00mm for the Bach 5G & 5GB; 7.04mm for the Schilke 51). The Bach 6½AL has a specified cup I.D of 25.40mm (and mine measures pretty close to that) and a throat diameter of 6.63mm - so it would probably feel larger than a Remington, as it did to me many decades ago.

As for me, the small-shank Remington works pretty well on a medium-bore like my Conn 79H (0.522"). The large-shank Remington is only of historical interest; I don't use it.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:08 pm Dunno. My teacher at the time could play a trigger pedal C on his 88H using a Remington.

I mean, you can play a pedal C on the absolutely tiny (smaller than a Bach 22) Bellaire trombone mouthpiece I have. Doesn't mean you'd want it over a more reasonable mouthpiece, especially in a large bore horn! (The size fits bass trumpet and alto cornet very nicely, but that's about it.)

Back to the topic at hand...
Aden, that horn looks great. Would love to hear it!

Here’s my Conn with a Thayer. Bought it at J Landress Brass several years ago. Work was done by Terry Pierce in NYC a couple decades ago. I’ve considered selling it because I rarely need a .547 trombone, but it sounds so, so great. The Thayer valve is a little uncomfortable with the normal width slide, so I had a brace put on the horn to move the slide out to the right about more without stretching my hand too much.

Elkhart 8H bell, made convertible. Slide is a Gen II Conn, so more modern. Plays best with the valve! Slotting, sound, response is all there. Nothing quite like a quality 8H bell. The Thayer is so open and surprisingly low maintenance. I use this horn primarily as a “fake bass”.

So far, impressions are very good. The color!!

With the valve on, I really enjoy the response most of the time- however, there's a leak, I think in the slide receiver going into the valve, so I'm losing some energy. There don't seem to be any quirky notes... high Ab feels great. In fact, all of the high register feels great, with defined slots but room to wiggle. Whoever make the F wrap made it quite short- with the slide all the way in it's halfway between Gb and F. To get it to F, it has to be pulled an inch and a half, much farther than any other wrap I've seen. I can just about play it with the narrow slide and Thayer- it touches my jaw lightly and doesn't seem to impede my pivots, unlike the 36K with stock slide. Low range is ok... it works, but I think the leak is not helping matters down there. I may have Benn shave down my valve casing for more seal.

I got a counterweight, so I can play it as a straight horn. In this configuration it's definitely more efficient, with more feedback as well. Ergonomics are still not great- I don't know if stock 8Hs are like this, but the bell brace is a bit far back to hold comfortably with the thumb, and it still feels a tad front heavy even with counterweight. Hot damn if it doesn't play great like this, though!

The slide, despite having probably 25% chrome loss, has amazing action. Not going to change anything about it.

Perhaps most strangely, it seems to play just fine with my Ultimate Brass SMP mouthpiece, which is pretty wildly open in the backbore. I thought it would feel awful on this instrument... but it doesn't. Not complaining, just unexpected.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:27 pm

I got a counterweight, so I can play it as a straight horn. In this configuration it's definitely more efficient, with more feedback as well. Ergonomics are still not great- I don't know if stock 8Hs are like this, but the bell brace is a bit far back to hold comfortably with the thumb, and it still feels a tad front heavy even with counterweight. Hot damn if it doesn't play great like this, though!

Every Elkhart 8H I've come across (and some early Texas) has that issue with the bell brace. Mine are a bit uncomfortable at first when holding (and i have big hands). The modern 8Hs have longer neckpipes which may explain why the brace is further back.

Shoulda used one of these wraps...
Cheers,
Andy