TromboneChat

Since my stimulus check is on the way I'm thinking of dipping my toe into the double rotor bass bone pool.
The problem is I've never played one and don't understand the pros & cons of dependent and independent and which tunings I should get.

I mostly play big band with a little serious community band thrown in.

I'm Currently playing a 72H. Love the sound, but the older I get the harder it is to reach 7+ position for the low B's and C's

What set up on a new horn would you suggest?

Currently I use two double rotors. One dependent and one independent. Both are good, both have their pros and cons.
In a bigband a stacked does the job, you probebly dont use the seound valve much other for low C and B. Maybe some low D or Db. The horn works like a singel rotor horn with added help for some rare tones. Often you can "pre press the second valve for tex G-C, you play the G open with the second trigger already engaged and just add the F trigger for the low C, Many of similar options.
On the inline, independent you often press both triggers simultanius for that G-C and other case. But you have very many options, and there are many ways to play some phrases. The horn is not as open as the dependent (many will protest, but I stand with this) but you dont notcie that when you are used to the horn except in very rare cases,
The independent is fu! But to play the bass part in most bigbandd except som modern ones the depndent is just as good. There is a reason for the independent to be very popular. I love it but sometimes I prefer the dependent.
Sorry not much of a helpt is it?

Most of all I prefer singel horns. They may not be better horns, but easier to hold, and that makes me play better.

This comes up a lot, and I’m sure I’ve given conflicting advice each time. What we can say for certain, it depends on what you want to do.

For me, sound and feel win when choosing and EVERY time I have had the option single > dependent > independent. I have tried multiple horns with all three setups, often requiring torches between attempts. This works for 90-95% of all playing. But that last 5% will drive you nuts with how much easier it can be on the right setup. I’m still a dependent guy, but I certainly have learned to care less about that than I used to. It is not now, nor will ever be, the limiting factor in my playing.

All that said, independent is increasingly dominant in the market. Best availability and most options for playing. If you are willing to learn some different tunings and take advantage of it, it really is quite handy. I miss my G or Gb for a lot of common licks.

Best advice; buy the best horn you can afford and learn whatever it has, without spending quality time learning it, you may not even know what you want yet.

Cheers,
Andy

If you've been playing single bass a long time and mostly need the low B/C to be more convenient, dependent gets the job done with less reprogramming of all your muscle memory (and often cheaper). Taking full advantage of independent valves is a lot of relearning.

If you're just learning, either setup will do. You can still play an independent horn like a dependent one, after all.

My first (and only) bass is an Indy - a King 7B. I learned bass on it. Initially I used it solely for low C and low B (it's in Bb/F/Gb/D). As I got more used to it, I started using both valves independently from time to time. Using the Gb valve instead of the F valve allows pitch adjustments for low F and C in the bass staff (it's now in 2nd position).

There are people who play all flavors of double valve bass; even the Bb/F/flat E (the original flavor). Once you get used to whatever you buy it will be comfortable.

If you really want to drive yourself nuts, look into the Yamaha YBL-61x series which come with D and Eb crooks for the 2nd valve. That lets you set up the 613 (Indy) for Bb/F/G/Eb, or Bb/F/Gb/D. There has been some advocacy for a G attachment to make playing better.

Doug Yeo’s website yeodoug.com has a good article weighing the pros and cons.

Some other important consideration are weight and wear-and-tear. A double-valve horn weighs more than a single, and an independent usually weighs a little more than a dependent. Holding the instrument with your two weakest fingers (ring and pinky) while using the thumb and middle finger to press the valve levers is awkward, at best. It can cause or exacerbate arthritis, tendonitis, and other wear-and-tear injuries.

I've had both a dependent (King 6B/Duo Gravis) and an independent (my current Olds P24-G) bass and personally I love the Olds. I tune the 2nd valve as a Gb-attachment and use it much more by itself than the thumb trigger F-attachment. I've read comments regarding the 'turbulence' associated with playing constantly through 2 valves of an independent bass, but I haven't noticed personally.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:54 pm Doug Yeo’s website yeodoug.com has a good article weighing the pros and cons.

Some other important consideration are weight and wear-and-tear. A double-valve horn weighs more than a single, and an independent usually weighs a little more than a dependent. Holding the instrument with your two weakest fingers (ring and pinky) while using the thumb and middle finger to press the valve levers is awkward, at best. It can cause or exacerbate arthritis, tendonitis, and other wear-and-tear injuries.

I've tried a thumb rest and a Neotech hand grip on my independent valve King 7B. The thumb rest I tried didn't fit at all, the Neotech hand grip helped the ergonomics some, but a Bullet Brace helped me the most. The bulk of the weight on the left hand is now in the web between the thumb and first finger like a regular trombone. An Axe Handle is similar in function. I almost never used the second valve on my TR180 dependent bass. I got my 7B just before COVID shut down all the ensembles I was playing in so haven't worked on using the second valve on it yet.

Study Eliezer Aharoni 'New method for the modern bass trombone' , and you find out why the independent system come into existence, and what nice things you can use the Gb valve (allone) for ... he's making a very systematic and thorough use of all 4 valve combinations of the standard indy, as well as 3 valve combinations of the dependent bone. Plus special tunings of the same .... very worth the money. It was a big eye opener for me to spend the time to work through the book.

I second the Aharoni suggestion. I have learned many things from that book. Worth the money.

Dependent...
This will be most like what you are used to with your Conn. It will feel very similar to you. The second valve will give you options of low D in 1st, Db in b2nd, C in 4th, and B in 6th.

Independent...
The feel will be a little different, but not much. You will get the same as what I mentioned above with both valves engaged... BUT... you get an entirely different set of options if you engage ONLY the 2nd valve:
Gb in 1st, F in b2nd, E in #4, Eb in 5th, and D in 6th

It’s all in what you want... I prefer the feel of a dependent horn, so I willingly gave up the independent 2nd valve options... I miss them occasionally, but not enough to give up the feel of the dependent setup. It’s really all in personal preference. I’ve had both... if you’re wanting to keep the same feel as what you currently play, but have the double valved options... go with dependent. If you want all of the options available to you with an independent setup, go that way... but it will feel a little different from what you are used to (it is a subtle difference).

My advice is to try both out and see what feels better to you. As for tunings... it’s pretty standard now to have Bb/F/Gb/D as the tuning. Anything else would be a special order. That is the same for dependent and independent (even though the Gb side is dependent on the F rotor on an dependent setup... same tuning though).

It's all dependent on how independent you want your horn to be

But before I drive you mad - it's really just preference. To me, independent = Gb / Db in first, which can save the time needed to make the position shift without it.

Since you'd be learning to use a second valve no matter the setup, go try some horns of either type, find one you feel comfortable with and sounds good, then go from there.

I personally prefer dependent and if it were me (and have done multiple times now) just add a D valve to your 72H.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:27 am Since you'd be learning to use a second valve no matter the setup, go try some horns of either type, find one you feel comfortable with and sounds good, then go from there.

I personally prefer dependent and if it were me (and have done multiple times now) just add a D valve to your 72H.

Who would you suggest to do the work?

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:27 am Since you'd be learning to use a second valve no matter the setup, go try some horns of either type, find one you feel comfortable with and sounds good, then go from there.

I personally prefer dependent and if it were me (and have done multiple times now) just add a D valve to your 72H.

This is a good option... I would send to either Eric Swanson in Ft. Worth or Mike Corrigan in KC... Eric has done work like that for me in the past and is excellent... Mike has been doing custom work for a while now. Both would probably have a double section available and could make it interchangeable... keep your original valve section when you don’t need the 2nd valve, or the added weight.

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:43 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:27 am Since you'd be learning to use a second valve no matter the setup, go try some horns of either type, find one you feel comfortable with and sounds good, then go from there.

I personally prefer dependent and if it were me (and have done multiple times now) just add a D valve to your 72H.

Who would you suggest to do the work?

Where are you located? John Sandhagen in southern California does a great job on this sort of work.

Alan Raph also have a method book about the double valve bass trombone. I used it long time ago. There is so many combination with two valves. I ended up using them mostly for C and B. Maybe time for me to blow away the dust on my method book

Leif

I went straight from single valve to indy and I've never played a dependent horn for more than a few hours at a time, so I can't comment too much on the differences. I can only say that I didn't find learning the valve combinations to be much of a problem and a decade later, I'm at the point where I probably use my G-flat valve more than the F valve. I think the versatility of the indy setup makes it the best option if you're only going to have one bass trombone.

I would rather keep the 72H than adding a valve. Or sell it to someone who loves singles. (like me).
The independent can be played the same way as the dependent, just use it for C and B.
Latter you can expand your thechnic, learn to use the second valve by it self, you can have some fun exploring the posibilitys. The independent is more popular today, so it is more easy to sell if you change your mind.
If you deside that the doubble horn is only used to get the C and B, go with dependent. Actually many pro players do.

I’ve been playing independent horns since 1981. It’s the only thing I like.

Fridge

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:23 pm

bigbandbone wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:43 pm

Who would you suggest to do the work?

Where are you located? John Sandhagen in southern California does a great job on this sort of work.

Cleveland Ohio

Basbasun wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:55 am I would rather keep the 72H than adding a valve. Or sell it to someone who loves singles. (like me).
The independent can be played the same way as the dependent, just use it for C and B.
Latter you can expand your thechnic, learn to use the second valve by it self, you can have some fun exploring the posibilitys. The independent is more popular today, so it is more easy to sell if you change your mind.
If you deside that the doubble horn is only used to get the C and B, go with dependent. Actually many pro players do.

I believe they’re talking about a plug-in dependent valve for the 72H that will still let the OP use it as a single. Very good option, IMO. I play a dependent with a removable D valve, and sometimes it’s just nice to have the single.