TromboneChat

I'm playing lead in a church Christmas big band/orchestra of sort - we'll be doing both classical and big band stuff.

Right now I'm playing on a Yamaha YSL-352s with a Benge 12C as my primary mouthpiece. I'm liking the mouthpiece because of the comfort the rim gives when compared to, for example, my previous Yamaha 12C, while still giving much easier access to the upper register than the Yam 48 that I just switched from about a month ago.

But the thing I'm finding is that while I can keep that nice easy high register, it's at the expense of a good, full tone quality and ease of flexibility (I have to focus a LOT to *not* crack notes all around).
This stands in stark contrast to the Remington Connstellation I just got with this new horn - never HAD a sound like that! It's so rich and buttery, great articulations, and giving me the BEST low range I've experienced on a small bore to date... generally an all-around much better piece, but not necessarily well-suited to lead playing in my opinion (and after my skill level).

High range and tone quality.... I need to find a better compromise!!

Some embouchures that do better on small mouthpieces are extremely sensitive to rim size. 
"(I have to focus a LOT to *not* crack notes all around)" tells me that mouthpiece is likely a bit too small for you.
The small shank Remington is likely more that a little too big.

Too small will give you easier high range at the expense of low range.
Too big will give you better low range at the expense of high range.
There is a middle ground to explore, you just haven't found it yet.

Thanks for the reply, Doug.
Messing around with a Yamaha 47... I'm digging it so far. The tone isn't anything to sneeze at, but it's a huge improvement over the 12C with minimal loss of high range, but the bonus of much better accuracy, nicer low range and far fewer cracked notes.

I'm gonna play this concert using this mouthpiece and see if it shows to be a keeper (it's proving its value thus far).

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Oct 29, 2017, 09:03AMSome embouchures that do better on small mouthpieces are extremely sensitive to rim size. 
"(I have to focus a LOT to *not* crack notes all around)" tells me that mouthpiece is likely a bit too small for you.
The small shank Remington is likely more that a little too big.

Too small will give you easier high range at the expense of low range.
Too big will give you better low range at the expense of high range.
There is a middle ground to explore, you just haven't found it yet.

Davdud,

Doug suggested a friend of mine who had a situation that sounds like yours try a Bach 9. It worked well for her, and she still plays it. Don't know if it will work for you. I've seen one used not long ago. Oooh, sorry, did a search, and it is sold http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,101513.0.html

I think tone is overrated. If you go and really think about the important, emotive elements of music, tone doesn't rank that high. Just look at the studies showing how difficult it is for people to identify instruments listening to sound samples which eliminate the start and end of a note, reducing the sound down to the tone of the middle of a note. If this information were important, it would be super easy to identify.

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Oct 30, 2017, 07:42PMI think tone is overrated. If you go and really think about the important, emotive elements of music, tone doesn't rank that high. Just look at the studies showing how difficult it is for people to identify instruments listening to sound samples which eliminate the start and end of a note, reducing the sound down to the tone of the middle of a note. If this information were important, it would be super easy to identify.

 

David,

If I recall correctly, you are trumpeter doubling on trombone. I do as well, and find that 7C is a good match for me, though I can probably do with a 11 or 12C as well. Personally, I found that algning jaws made my tbone high range better. The most cases where I miss notes is more for lack of experience in listenng and hearing in that register (I just don't have the habits of hearing these notes as high register, if that makes any sense).

I also got to understand that if I have any important and challenging performance on either instrument, I'd better not do anything on the other instrument (somehow it confuses my chops, or may be I still have to learn how to adapt my playing quickly enough - it seems to work fine for James Morrison and some other celebrity folks).

Quote from: bonenick on Oct 31, 2017, 04:45AMDavid,

If I recall correctly, you are trumpeter doubling on trombone. I do as well, and find that 7C is a good match for me, though I can probably do with a 11 or 12C as well. Personally, I found that algning jaws made my tbone high range better. The most cases where I miss notes is more for lack of experience in listenng and hearing in that register (I just don't have the habits of hearing these notes as high register, if that makes any sense).

I also got to understand that if I have any important and challenging performance on either instrument, I'd better not do anything on the other instrument (somehow it confuses my chops, or may be I still have to learn how to adapt my playing quickly enough - it seems to work fine for James Morrison and some other celebrity folks).

Its possible some of the difference may be in your head too.  I know when I first started playing bass trombone I thought I sounded awful but as it turns out when I recorded/had friends listen to it, it I had a pretty characteristic bass sound. (After a month or so).  But that extra 1" makes a huge difference. Much more than even 7.5 -> 8.5. I never had a perception problem with the smaller horns... but yeah, bass was a challenge to understand that what I was playing was fine. 

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Oct 30, 2017, 07:42PMI think tone is overrated. If you go and really think about the important, emotive elements of music, tone doesn't rank that high. Just look at the studies showing how difficult it is for people to identify instruments listening to sound samples which eliminate the start and end of a note, reducing the sound down to the tone of the middle of a note. If this information were important, it would be super easy to identify.

I think I understand where you're coming from but also bear in mind that when we say 'tone', especially when we're very conscious of what we sound like because we're on a double (a somewhat unfamiliar instrument) that the articulations and their quality are kind of rolled into that. I know when I play a 12C, my tone suffers although not to the degree that you might notice if you weren't familiar with my playing. But what really suffers are quality of articulations and flexibility (and endurance, though that won't come into play immediately). If you are chipping notes or have imprecise articulations, I'd normally consider that a function of the tone quality even if it isn't the most accurate use of the term.

So I think I agree but I just wanted to put that out there because obviously I think it would be possible to misconstrue what you are saying.

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Oct 30, 2017, 07:42PMI think tone is overrated. If you go and really think about the important, emotive elements of music, tone doesn't rank that high. Just look at the studies showing how difficult it is for people to identify instruments listening to sound samples which eliminate the start and end of a note, reducing the sound down to the tone of the middle of a note. If this information were important, it would be super easy to identify.

I don't agree at all. Tone is the entrance point for music, regardless of the instrument (well, minus keyboards, bagpipes, and such). Tone is the one thing you can hear immediately, and it is never separated from attacks and releases. Nasal sounds, the infamous Twahhhh, sounds that aren't controlled or consistent. There are a lot of types of sounds that you just don't hear in professional music, and there's a reason for that. There's room for a lot of leeway, but some sounds are just not worthy.

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Oct 31, 2017, 04:21AM

no, he's got a point. I hate the way most jazz trombonists sound. Sure, JJ and Frank Rosalino had AMAZING tone, but the newer jazz stuff that I keep hearing on the radio sounds bad, and not just trombone players.

It's only a semi-joke, but I hear stuff on the radio that isn't far from sounding like this:

http://youtu.be/unUgdnoqDuE

Just really lazy playing, lazy articulation, everything. But the musical ideas and lines are often good (not like that video, which is of course 100% a joke).

I don't agree with his point, but he's got one that's sometimes hard to refute. How are these guys getting gigs?

FWIW, the original video doesn't sound much better:

http://youtu.be/1g-1Gpwx9EE

Well, Harrison, it is sad, but social media is responsible for guys getting gigs.

Artistic directors of festivals, and the faces running festivals are unduly influenced by websites, youtube, and the like making it APPEAR that an artist ( I use the term "artist" very loosely) is successful and popular.

Hertor Berlioz explained it all in his Memoires, yes, 200 years ago it was common knowledge. Berlioz wrote of the claque. Claque are/were paid supporters who applauded for singers at the opera, making them appear more talented than they actually were.

Now, lets look a bit closer at TTF. Players with lots of video on youtube? They abound here on TTF. Their influence in the trombone-sphere far outweighs their musicality and skill. Sorry. It is sad but true. Post video of a recital and sit back and wait  for a job teaching at a collitch to magically appear. Sad. But true.

It happens in the jazz world just as frequently as it does in the academic world. You want gigs? Seriously? Post video on youtube of a singer with cleavage in the video. Boom. Ya gots yer gigs right there!

Would Jack Teagarden stand a chance in today's world with a mug like his? Not a chance.

Sound? &^%$#*@-- I still get asked by music directors to bring a bass trombone, next time, if I show up with a horn with one valve. Show up at a gig with no valves on your tenor?--- good luck.
Harrison, people listen with their eyes in the real world.
And even here on TTF people listen with their eyes. If they read that your Elliott code does not conform with "their" idea of the proper Elliott code, or Shires code?-- you're dismissed as untalented.

Read any 100 posts here on TTF and see if I am not at least half correct.

That's why I was agreeing with him...?

Tone is not important.

And then there are the guys like Trombone Shorty who have the chops, stage presence, AND videos on YouTube!

Tone is important if you want to enjoy picking up the trombone every day.  If you don't want to enjoy picking up the trombone every day, why even do it?  There are much more lucrative uses of your time. 

In the real real world, in my experience, nobody GAF about your equipment if you sound good.  There are exceptions, but I've played 1000 gigs and will play 1000 more and nobody has ever once told me to bring another axe or mouthpiece. If they didn't like how I played, they'd tell me, or not, and I'd proceed accordingly.  Some players might give you the side-eye if you show up with something weird, but if you sound amazing, nobody will care, and if you sound awful, they'll be mad that you sound awful, not that you showed up with weird gear.  I'm not saying gear is not important (it is), just that nobody is going to get tossed from a gig because of their Shires bell code or whatever.  Such a thing would be utterly ridiculous. 

Play whatever makes it a joy for you to play.  That's why we all do this anyway. 

The fact that one that seriously plays the trombone thinks that tone is not important is beyond absurd. Why do I want to sit and play with anyone who has a bad tone? Why would anyone else? I get that we all have objective opinions about sound but saying that it's not important? Next attacks, volume, personal habits, note missing, the inability to blend and work well with others, won't matter.

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Oct 31, 2017, 06:35AM
Now, lets look a bit closer at TTF. Players with lots of video on youtube? They abound here on TTF. Their influence in the trombone-sphere far outweighs their musicality and skill. Sorry. It is sad but true. Post video of a recital and sit back and wait  for a job teaching at a collitch to magically appear. Sad. But true.



If only I would get gigs because of my youtube videos...



For the OP, a 7 size mouthpiece might be more suited for this (like the Yamaha 47 you have). I find the 48 just a little too big for that role.

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Oct 30, 2017, 07:42PMI think tone is overrated. If you go and really think about the important, emotive elements of music, tone doesn't rank that high.
I agree, provided you've met the minimum standards - no horrendous beginner faults.

But articulation!  I hear trombone players frequently doing sloppy stuff that would be unacceptable on other instruments.  I think we get deaf to it, partly because we know how much harder it is on trombone.  But nontrombone players hear it.

It's hard to play cleanly, but it's not impossible. 

And with this thread the forum reaches a new low.

Several posts are beneath contempt.

Seriously, some of you need to find out what music is... and think about it.

I suppose I have the disadvantage of being seen as a member of the musical establishment.... whatever that is....

but honestly, I am dumbfounded.

Chris Stearn

To the OP, found a used VB 9
http://www.shoptrombones.com/on-clearance

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Oct 30, 2017, 07:42PMI think tone is overrated. If you go and really think about the important, emotive elements of music, tone doesn't rank that high. Just look at the studies showing how difficult it is for people to identify instruments listening to sound samples which eliminate the start and end of a note, reducing the sound down to the tone of the middle of a note. If this information were important, it would be super easy to identify.

This is a very weird thing to say.... yes I've seen those studies too... but how is that really relevant? I mean when you play people do hear the attack and the end of the note. Auditions and performances are not a study. It very much matters if you produce a good quality tone.
With some exceptions, I would argue that it's probably the most important thing you can do. You can be as musical and as expressive as you like, but honestly if you sound bad.... who cares? I would argue that having a bad tone is itself unmusical.

Did you mean something different? It is possible I misunderstood.

People are freaking out over this thread. The guys who think anyone is actually saying that tone doesn't matter need to read for comprehension.  Of course tone matters. It's the most important thing. Tone and articulations. But somehow it doesn't translate to the NPR audience who thinks they like 'jazz'.

I hear so much garbage on there that I started to doubt how important tone and articulations actually are. That Marsalis vid, the one with the original audio -- I hear that kind of playing more and more, and I can't believe that it gets recorded.

I don't get the Wynton's bashing. He is an amazing musician, some like him some dont. In that video he is using a particular technique (some call it whisper tones, some call it sub-tones to get that breathy tones), that some musicians use a lot (Chet Baker comes to mind as well as Marquis Hill). That doesn't mean that they cannot play with a beautiful full sound. Whether one like it or not, is a matter of taste.

We sure have gotten a long way away from anything related to the original question.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Oct 31, 2017, 02:43PMWe sure have gotten a long way away from anything related to the original question.

Sure we did. IMHO, good full sound depends of 4 factors:

1. Mental imagery - we always end up with the sound that is our head, more or less (depending on technical proficiency/efficiency of our embouchure set up)
2. Equipment - every equipment is kind of a compromise, the real dilemma is to find an equipment that doesn't hold us too much to achieve what is in our head and how well this fits our basic anatomy and embouchure setup
3. Feedback of the instrument
4. any technical issues with our equipment such as leaks, faulty solders or a bad slide.

Quote from: bonenick on Oct 31, 2017, 02:53PMSure we did. IMHO, good full sound depends of 4 factors:

1. Mental imagery - we always end up with the sound that is our head, more or less (depending on technical proficiency/efficiency of our embouchure set up)
2. Equipment - every equipment is kind of a compromise, the real dilemma is to find an equipment that doesn't hold us too much to achieve what is in our head and how well this fits our basic anatomy and embouchure setup
3. Feedback of the instrument
4. any technical issues with our equipment such as leaks, faulty solders or a bad slide.

still off topic. He just wanted Doug to suggest a magic mouthpiece.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Oct 31, 2017, 03:06PMstill off topic. He just wanted Doug to suggest a magic mouthpiece.
Well Doug suggested a mouthpiece over the phone for my 88H. He nailed it. It can happen.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Oct 31, 2017, 03:06PMstill off topic. He just wanted Doug to suggest a magic mouthpiece.

Well....my mouthpiece is the BEST!!!





































































for me.

I love my DE piece.

Man, I've seen some stoopid shiznit on this forum, but this thread just about takes the prize.

Yamaha 47 is probably closest to a Bach 6 3/4 size for general reference.  Doug's 99 size rim is close.  I also like the Marcinkiewicz 11 in this sort of size.  Different rim profile from the Yamaha but very comfortable, not too much bite.  The cup is pretty deep, but funnel-shaped, as compared with the Yamaha's fairly shallow bowl-chaped cup. Whether for this reason or some other, I find the Marc much more flexible, not only in terms of moving through the range, but also in terms of tone colouration (Andrew's comments notwithstanding).

Ben Griffin has written here about this piece, many moons ago - turns up in a search and well worth a read (as is pretty much everything else he's posted here).

There are plenty of things beneath contempt in this world.  I have a difficult time finding any of them in this thread, or this forum for that matter.   

Lots of... thoughts... here!!! 

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Oct 31, 2017, 03:06PMstill off topic. He just wanted Doug to suggest a magic mouthpiece.
Haha Harrison... obviously there's no magic bullet. Was hoping to get a collection of replies that may help me better choose from a pool of "tweeners". Didn't quite get that - but the off-topic discussion is welcome as far as I'm concerned 


Quote from: growlerbox on Oct 31, 2017, 06:26PMMan, I've seen some stoopid shiznit on this forum, but this thread just about takes the prize.

Yamaha 47 is probably closest to a Bach 6 3/4 size for general reference.  Doug's 99 size rim is close.  I also like the Marcinkiewicz 11 in this sort of size.  Different rim profile from the Yamaha but very comfortable, not too much bite.  The cup is pretty deep, but funnel-shaped, as compared with the Yamaha's fairly shallow bowl-chaped cup. Whether for this reason or some other, I find the Marc much more flexible, not only in terms of moving through the range, but also in terms of tone colouration (Andrew's comments notwithstanding).

Ben Griffin has written here about this piece, many moons ago - turns up in a search and well worth a read (as is pretty much everything else he's posted here).

Strange thing with that is that my 48 STILL feels WIDER somehow. It's hard to find chart with information about this stuff, and the fact that there really are no standards as to WHERE to measure the cup depth, rim width, and average rim bite from, it's hard to *really* even compare multiple peices with the same set on mnumbers stamped on them  Even different years from the same manufacturers!

Beyond not having a set of standards, its really because there are different shapes. How can you compare the distance between two points when the two points might not be in the same place, after all?  Part of what makes it interesting is finding a shape that works which in some ways is more important than the diameter (within reason, of course). Meaning you don't see too many mouthpieces with sharp, 90 degree angles going into the cup no matter how many times rims are referred to as 'cookie cutters'. 

That's really why you take the measurements with a grain of salt. A good shape can make certain things feel bigger or smaller than they are. Wide rims really kill my flexibility, for example... especially on bass trombone. I can play almost any narrow rim better than a wide rimmed bass mouthpiece categorically.  There are no solutions, only compromises!

That is also one of the advantages of Doug's system although any system that has a screw rim can also convey those advantages.   While it may not be optimal from an engineering standpoint, in my personal experience, picking a rim size and material that works really well and then finding an underpart to match that rim can be very effective.  But bear in mind I'm an amateur and so my needs vary from those who have more time to dedicate to practicing than I do. I have an LB110 and an XT104N  (both in lexan) as my two rim sizes and at this point, I can pick both of them up comfortably after laying off for a week and be back to really close to 100% in a few days.  The material is an important consideration too.  Sometimes people find the lexan/delrin feels smaller than it is so they can afford to go a little bigger. 

I'm not going to win any symphonic position doing this, but its the right system of compromises for me. At least I think. That won't stop me from tinkering because that's almost as fun to me as playing.  But I'm at a place where I'm pretty happy with my playing and mysetup and I dont' know if I would be if I hadn't started with a rim I liked and branched out from there.

Doug, it is autumn now and time to rake the leaves in the yard. I like to use two rakes like a giant salad tongs and then just throw them into the garbage bag using both hands. I can only find one rake. Doug, can you tell me where I put my second rake? Thanks.

 ha ha hahhahaha hahahahhahahahah ahhaha a

Matt K is right on the money. You need to change one variable at a time - it may take a lot of time and money to get the optimum results. If you change too much at once, you may get confused.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Oct 31, 2017, 06:43AMThat's why I was agreeing with him...?

Tone is not important.

With my poor English Im very sure I misunderstand this post, but sound is very important.

Guess who write this;

"For myself, I honestly believe that you’ve got to have the greatest sound in the world. If somebody’s going to hire you as a trombone player, they’re hiring you because of the fantastic sound that you have. Unless you’re into real intricate jazz or that type of thing but even then, I think, the great jazz players, the really good ones…Urbie, Watrous all have great sound (pounds the table for emphasis). Sound, to me, is the number one most important thing you can do. Get the greatest sound in the world and learn what to do with it. It has to be that way."

To the OP I would say when I started to play the trombone, I tried to play the Beatles tune  "Hey Jude" and I didnt give it up before it sounded ok.
 If I had been disturbed by which mouthpiece fit me best or what trombone give me the best sound, I would never learned how to play the trombone. We can focus on equipment from day one, but then we loose the hole point which I hope is music. 

Leif

 

Not sure it helps the OP, but...

I didn't mean sound was unimportant, but that we might focus too much on it to the expense of other factors.

Can you really separate sound from articulation?  I would suggest that when listening to someone play, a trombone player is likely to focus on and hear the tone, and not notice the sloppiness, while a nontrombone player does exactly the opposite.

Quote from: Matt K on Oct 31, 2017, 06:02AMI think I understand where you're coming from but also bear in mind that when we say 'tone', especially when we're very conscious of what we sound like because we're on a double (a somewhat unfamiliar instrument) that the articulations and their quality are kind of rolled into that. I know when I play a 12C, my tone suffers although not to the degree that you might notice if you weren't familiar with my playing. But what really suffers are quality of articulations and flexibility (and endurance, though that won't come into play immediately). If you are chipping notes or have imprecise articulations, I'd normally consider that a function of the tone quality even if it isn't the most accurate use of the term.

So I think I agree but I just wanted to put that out there because obviously I think it would be possible to misconstrue what you are saying.

Apparently so! 

I was not under the impression that the term 'tone' encompasses articulation; just tambre. As with many things internet, lots of people jump on a critical bandwagon before even making sure we're all talking about the same thing. Thanks for this clarification. Maybe I should start another thread? 

Quote from: Matt K on Oct 31, 2017, 06:02AMI think I understand where you're coming from but also bear in mind that when we say 'tone', especially when we're very conscious of what we sound like because we're on a double (a somewhat unfamiliar instrument) that the articulations and their quality are kind of rolled into that. I know when I play a 12C, my tone suffers although not to the degree that you might notice if you weren't familiar with my playing. But what really suffers are quality of articulations and flexibility (and endurance, though that won't come into play immediately). If you are chipping notes or have imprecise articulations, I'd normally consider that a function of the tone quality even if it isn't the most accurate use of the term.

So I think I agree but I just wanted to put that out there because obviously I think it would be possible to misconstrue what you are saying.

Apparently so! 

I was not under the impression that the term 'tone' encompasses articulation; just tambre. As with many things internet, lots of people jump on a critical bandwagon before even making sure we're all talking about the same thing. Thanks for this clarification. Maybe I should start another thread?