TromboneChat

every single drum corp

Elow wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:31 am every single drum corp

Now we've gone into the upper echelons of musical performance....

Chris

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:08 am

Elow wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:31 am every single drum corp

Now we've gone into the upper echelons of musical performance....

Chris

Agree.

Neo Bri wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:26 am Also, about the NSO - weird. When I lived there I remember Matt Guilford playing a Shires (I had a lesson with him before an audition).

He switched back to Edwards a number of years ago, at least partially because the rest of the section was playing Edwards.

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:08 am

Elow wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:31 am every single drum corp

Now we've gone into the upper echelons of musical performance....

Chris

I aged out of DCI recently. It really grinds my gears when people act like what modern drum corps do is not musical, or a high level of musical performance. Go watch any corps in the top 5 from the last 20 years and tell me that is not musical or a high level of performance. My last two seasons of corps was with top 5 groups and the individual level was musicianship was very high and the music we performed was rather difficult before factoring in playing it while running around.
Lots of the Corps employ top tier educators and performers to educate their members, Cavaliers use The Martins, Boston has Gino Cipriani, Matt Harloff at Crown, ect. They all craft great musical productions year after year performed at a very high level and standard.

That being said, the marching horns helps I suppose but I still sounded like me whether I was playing on my corps issued Yamaha horns or the Bachs I play on normally (I play trumpet). My issued horn my age out was a real clunker new out of the box and I spent many nights dreaming of my personal Bach. Meanwhile my buddy's horn was phenomenal and a dream to play. All horns vary, even ones from the same production batch.

teachyteach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:43 pm


I aged out of DCI recently. It really grinds my gears when people act like what modern drum corps do is not musical, or a high level of musical performance.

Trust me, it's not worth it. No one here has seen a show (much less live) in the last 20 years.

teachyteach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:43 pm

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:08 am
Now we've gone into the upper echelons of musical performance....

Chris

I aged out of DCI recently. It really grinds my gears when people act like what modern drum corps do is not musical, or a high level of musical performance. Go watch any corps in the top 5 from the last 20 years and tell me that is not musical or a high level of performance. My last two seasons of corps was with top 5 groups and the individual level was musicianship was very high and the music we performed was rather difficult before factoring in playing it while running around.
Lots of the Corps employ top tier educators and performers to educate their members, Cavaliers use The Martins, Boston has Gino Cipriani, Matt Harloff at Crown, ect. They all craft great musical productions year after year performed at a very high level and standard.

That being said, the marching horns helps I suppose but I still sounded like me whether I was playing on my corps issued Yamaha horns or the Bachs I play on normally (I play trumpet). My issued horn my age out was a real clunker new out of the box and I spent many nights dreaming of my personal Bach. Meanwhile my buddy's horn was phenomenal and a dream to play. All horns vary, even ones from the same production batch.

Well said.

DCI corps are all sponsored by some specific brand so they are uniform, so that's a given (as far as I know).

teachyteach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:43 pm

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:08 am
Now we've gone into the upper echelons of musical performance....

Chris

I aged out of DCI recently. It really grinds my gears when people act like what modern drum corps do is not musical, or a high level of musical performance. Go watch any corps in the top 5 from the last 20 years and tell me that is not musical or a high level of performance. My last two seasons of corps was with top 5 groups and the individual level was musicianship was very high and the music we performed was rather difficult before factoring in playing it while running around.
Lots of the Corps employ top tier educators and performers to educate their members, Cavaliers use The Martins, Boston has Gino Cipriani, Matt Harloff at Crown, ect. They all craft great musical productions year after year performed at a very high level and standard.

That being said, the marching horns helps I suppose but I still sounded like me whether I was playing on my corps issued Yamaha horns or the Bachs I play on normally (I play trumpet). My issued horn my age out was a real clunker new out of the box and I spent many nights dreaming of my personal Bach. Meanwhile my buddy's horn was phenomenal and a dream to play. All horns vary, even ones from the same production batch.

Well, I knew this would be coming..... my original comment was primarily intended to be humorous, but this isn't....
We were mostly talking about sections in the very top orchestras around the world and what effect using products from the same maker may or may not have.
A handful of people here have actual experience of working at that level, and just how different it is from anything else in the music world....and if and how equipment makes a difference. The mixture of fun and fear, the individual responsibility to the whole, The drug- like elation, the unexpected boredom and the need to be part of the team. Equipment or attitude, it's one of the most amazing things created by humankind and worthy of investigation here, but to be honest, most of what goes on defies meaningful description to third parties.
I'm not sure how marching band fits in there as I have no experience of it. On the surface it seems rather different.

Chris

teachyteach wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:43 pm

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:08 am
Now we've gone into the upper echelons of musical performance....

Chris

I aged out of DCI recently. It really grinds my gears when people act like what modern drum corps do is not musical, or a high level of musical performance. Go watch any corps in the top 5 from the last 20 years and tell me that is not musical or a high level of performance. My last two seasons of corps was with top 5 groups and the individual level was musicianship was very high and the music we performed was rather difficult before factoring in playing it while running around.
Lots of the Corps employ top tier educators and performers to educate their members, Cavaliers use The Martins, Boston has Gino Cipriani, Matt Harloff at Crown, ect. They all craft great musical productions year after year performed at a very high level and standard.

So high!

（　・ω・）
（　・ω・）
（　・ω・）



But not high enough. The girl at the very end screams higher than the highest level note played by DCI, likely with no training whatsoever...

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:55 am St. Louis and National Symphony and Vancouver are all Edwards sections. Toronto is all Shires. I think Minnesota is all Bach.

Some other sections started with everyone on the same brand for a while, but trombonists are always looking for the "better mousetrap" - nothing lasts forever. Good players blend with whatever tools they choose.

Jim Scott

Hey Jim, Jeff Hall (bass trombone TSO is now playing Bach!)

DCI is a special consideration. DCI bands play shows in competitions. The musicianship is part of the show. The choreography is part of the show. And the appearance -- including uniformity -- is part of the show. So a section with an assortment of different instruments in the same section loses points regardless of other factors. DCI bands generally buy one brand for everybody and dole out the instruments to the players. It even gets to forcing people to use only ONE mouthpiece!

How do you award points for 'musicianship ' Bruce ?

Chris

PhillyG wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:25 am

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:55 am St. Louis and National Symphony and Vancouver are all Edwards sections. Toronto is all Shires. I think Minnesota is all Bach.

Some other sections started with everyone on the same brand for a while, but trombonists are always looking for the "better mousetrap" - nothing lasts forever. Good players blend with whatever tools they choose.

Jim Scott

Hey Jim, Jeff Hall (bass trombone TSO is now playing Bach!)

Yeah, it's impossible to keep up with the changes of equipment that happen all the time in the trombone world. Even if sections start out with matching horns, one of them is likely to find something else that works better for them.

Also, some people brought up french horns - I think there are greater differences between some of the different types of horns. Big nickel silver horns are very different than medium brass horns and Vienna horns are a whole different (but cool sounding) world. Our instruments have a more subtle difference in sound quality. Still, there are several prominent horn sections where they still manage to blend with mixes of very different instruments.

Jim Scott

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:29 am How do you award points for 'musicianship ' Bruce ?

Chris

I don't. But I sat next to a guy in my orchestra who used to adjudicate DCI and he told me what he did.

In florida, our marching bands are judged off a sheet but it’s through the FMEA and not and drum corp organization. Here’s one for solo and ensemble a couple years back.

Is the reason for the Crisafulli/Kleinhammer impasse publicly known?

SteelDeRosa wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:36 pm Is the reason for the Crisafulli/Kleinhammer impasse publicly known?

One of them wanted to adjudicate marching bands, and the other didn't.....

Joke...in case you are mentally challenged...

Chris

My teacher studied with Kleinhammer. If nobody here knows then I could try to ask him.

I know nothing of the dispute between Mr. Kleinhammer and Mr. Crisafulli and perhaps it is best not to inquire. But, by all accounts, these were both generous, agreeable men. Not speaking to one another for years seems so out of character for both.

Let me preface this by stating that I'm obviously not part of a top orchestra or anything. When I was in college, most of the trombonists in the studio played Conn's. Our professor was a Conn/King guy but never discouraged other brands. Almost always in our wind ensemble and orchestra, we had 88H's playing tenor and my 62H on bass. The school also owned a thayer-modded 110H bass which anyone playing bass besides me used. We had a great blend but I think part of that was just listening to each other, moreso than having the same brand of instruments. Best outing trio I thought was when we had 2 88HYCL's on tenor and me with the 62H on bass, or 3 88HYCL's if I needed a lighter sound.

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:29 am How do you award points for 'musicianship ' Bruce ?

Chris

Chris did you not see the video I put up? The score sheet was the bit of staff superimposed at the top of the video.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:18 pm Chris did you not see the video I put up? The score sheet was the bit of staff superimposed at the top of the video.

In other words, "Highest Note = Best Musicianship?"

[th][/th]

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:56 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:18 pm Chris did you not see the video I put up? The score sheet was the bit of staff superimposed at the top of the video.

In other words, "Highest Note = Best Musicianship?"

In DCI? Ummm ... Yeah?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:05 pm [th][/th]

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:56 pm

In other words, "Highest Note = Best Musicianship?"

In DCI? Ummm ... Yeah?

Hey look, more commentary on something people know nothing about.

I'm not going to hold DCI up to the same standard as the top level of orchestral playing (Put down the pitchfork, Chris!!), but the amount of snobbery about it here has always been pretty off-putting.

I haven't said anything negative about DCI. It's a performance art as much as anything else Chat members perform. In fact, it's probably closer to Opera than anything else, combining dance and making music. I won't say Ballet because the dancers don't actually make the music. Certainly more involved than regular High School or College Football performances.

Some of the DCI players I've played with are excellent musicians (and some aren't ).

Re: Crisafulli and Kleinhammer. This is third-hand, and highly edited. Crisafulli was, for a time, the principal in Chicago. He was having some difficulty, and requested assistance from Kleinhammer who declined, remarking that Crisafulli, as the principal in the CSO, was in a position to address the situation by himself. Shortly thereafter, Crisafulli stepped down to second, and remained there for his career.

But that is missing the point of this thread: that it is important to have a sound concept that is settled regardless of equipment. Crisafulli and Kleinhammer may have had (a) personal dispute(s), but they did not allow that to interfere with their professional duties—to play as a section. They may have used different equipment, but they did not allow that to interfere with their concept of sound.

Yes, it is easier to play with a similar sound when the section all play equipment from the same maker. You have, so to speak, removed some of the variables from the equation by doing so, allowing greater control of the known variables. In quasi-logical terms: The same equipment is sufficient to produce a unified sound concept, but not necessary. Conversely, the same sound concept is necessary, but not sufficient.

At one time the story was that one of them said something to the other about his intonation and that they stopped speaking after that. This is just hearsay, may be part of your story or as far as I know might not even be true. Nonetheless both great and greatly admired.

modelerdc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:19 pm At one time the story was that one of them said something to the other about his intonation and that they stopped speaking after that.

Ah, intonation! We can all criticize other's intonation at some time or another, can't we?
I've learned to develop a thick skin about my slippages, try to fix them, and keep my mouth shut about others' "faults."

For those who like DCI, here's a Blast! from the past: . All Yamahas, BTW.

In orchestras there’s often two tenors and one bass. They are not exactly same instruments so maybe they often choose differently. I don’t think many orchestra say you must play same brand. But maybe when one player change, often the others maybe want to try also? I often see they agree when playing some types of music, to change from their normal setup. Also have to say I don’t play or know much what orchestras do today..
The OP ask about orchestra. Bands and marching bands are a different world. So it’s maybe more about look uniform, the bands economy etc. I don’t know much about this either. But it’s a different animal as you English say?

Leif

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:24 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:05 pm [th][/th]

In DCI? Ummm ... Yeah?

Hey look, more commentary on something people know nothing about.

I'm not going to hold DCI up to the same standard as the top level of orchestral playing (Put down the pitchfork, Chris!!), but the amount of snobbery about it here has always been pretty off-putting.

No pitchfork.... just wondering why when we were discussing subtle blending issues in top symphony orchestras, such a different form of music making should be brought in. I have greatly enjoyed listening to the sound clips posted, but this very different music making, as was, say, the Maynard Ferguson band or trombone choirs or many other forms of music making . We used to use pitchforks....then electronics took over.

Chris

As discussions are mostly regarding US and british orchestra sections at this point and the world is bigger than this: There might be more such cases around the globe.

E.g. some German orchestras require to play German trombones and certainly some play the same. I am pretty sure there are sections that play Lätzsch only, and probably some that play e.g. Kruspe, Voigt, Kromat or Throja only.

Also some orchestras outside Germany might be using complete sets of German trombones. E.g. the Concertgebouw from my knowledge has been using Throja for German literature.
Same might be the case also for orchestras in the US for example.

In France there are probably some sections playing Courtois only.

And in Austria there was at least a time where Schagerl was extremely popular and probably some sections played Schagerl only.

There are always some strange examples.
I am not sure about this, but I think at some point there was a Swedish(?) orchestra that all played Monette trumpets...

I do not think this is absolutely necessary for a section to sound good, but it can make things easier sometimes.
And as mentioned there may be economic incentives at some points.

Re: orchestras outside Germany playing the same brand when they play German trombones: yes but the reason for them being the same brand is not so much a concern with having the same brand for the same sound and more because if you say "hey let's buy a set of German trombones", you're unlikely to go buy 3 instruments simultaneously from 3 different makers.

On this general topic, I don't feel like this has as big an effect as some seem to think. In some cases, can it contribute positively or negatively to the blend of a section? Sure, but I'd say it's in more extreme cases than simply playing the same vs. a different brand. There's always more difference between each individual's sound and playing than between different horns played by the same person. Joe Alessi still sounds like Joe Alessi. If Joe Alessi's colleagues, who don't sound like Joe Alessi, can blend with him when he plays Edwards, do you really think they can't blend with him now that he's with Shires without changing horns too? It's not like he changed to a German trombone or something with a drastically different presence, blow and sound...

I’ve certainly never played in a section that considered playing the same brand.... but I’m going to question the statement above that the same equipment is sufficient to produce a uniform sound concept. That leaves out the players own tendencies. If the players are uniform then the same equipment may be sufficient. But if the players are sufficiently varied in their physical tendencies to different sounds then the same equipment may leave them different. In that case, they may get to a uniform sound concept by using different equipment.

All of this focus on the horns reminds me of a time when my wife was acting as my audience as I tried out mouthpieces and both my older and new (to me) medium bore trombones. After a while she said, “why do you even worry about the different horns when the mouthpieces makes so much more difference.”

I'll tell you a story from 1980....
I went to see the Chicago Symphony play at the London Promenade concerts. Bruckner 4 and the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra. For Bruckner they played their regular horns ...I think Bach 42, Holton and Frankenbass.... for the Bartok the tenors used 'Shilke' tenors...basically gold plated Yamahas. With the Schlkes they sounded lighter but still basically the same...perhaps slightly better matched, but still part of the best blended brass section I have heard in an orchestra. Pure class.

Chris

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:40 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:24 pm

Hey look, more commentary on something people know nothing about.

I'm not going to hold DCI up to the same standard as the top level of orchestral playing (Put down the pitchfork, Chris!!), but the amount of snobbery about it here has always been pretty off-putting.

No pitchfork.... just wondering why when we were discussing subtle blending issues in top symphony orchestras, such a different form of music making should be brought in. I have greatly enjoyed listening to the sound clips posted, but this very different music making, as was, say, the Maynard Ferguson band or trombone choirs or many other forms of music making . We used to use pitchforks....then electronics took over.

Chris

Well, look at who posted that particular comment...

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:17 am In some sections you join a team, in others, a philosophy.

Chris

Thats deep Chris....and fundamental....

Alby56 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:15 pm

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:17 am In some sections you join a team, in others, a philosophy.

Chris

Thats deep Chris....and fundamental....

Ahhh.... at last somebody gets it. Thank you.

Chris

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:50 am

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:40 am
No pitchfork.... just wondering why when we were discussing subtle blending issues in top symphony orchestras, such a different form of music making should be brought in. I have greatly enjoyed listening to the sound clips posted, but this very different music making, as was, say, the Maynard Ferguson band or trombone choirs or many other forms of music making . We used to use pitchforks....then electronics took over.

Chris

Well, look at who posted that particular comment...

Give up on it eh ?

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:38 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:50 am

Well, look at who posted that particular comment...

Give up on it eh ?

Oof! I'm talking about Elow.

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:21 pm

Alby56 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:15 pm

Thats deep Chris....and fundamental....

Ahhh.... at last somebody gets it. Thank you.

Chris

Is it? Teams are often held together by a philosophy. DCI sections are all there because they choose to be there, making something great together. It's a different form, but it's not inherently better or worse. And Harrison, given the way some classicists view concert bands and military bands, I'm surprised to see you jumping in and sanctioning elitism.

In the Spring 1999 ITA Journal (Volume 27, #2), Eric Carlson of the Philadelphia Orchestra wrote a fairly detailed audition journal for the Associate Principal audition that Matt Vaughn won. It's really interesting reading regardless, but one spot talks about this very thing.

Paraphrasing, he said that after the solo/unaccompanied potion of the finals, Matt was the choice, but after the finalists played with the section the committee was split, as some felt the other candidate matched the section better. They decided to repeat the section round only this time with Matt playing the principal trombonist's horn (Nitzan Haroz). They were impressed at how well Matt matched the section with the change (and how good he sounded on unfamiliar equipment).

I know that for a number of years Philadelphia was an all Edwards section, although at a minimum Blair Bollinger now plays a Shires. Don't know about the rest.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:57 pm

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:38 pm
Give up on it eh ?

Oof! I'm talking about Elow.

Yes Aiden....but can we move on from an awkward digression?

Chris

mahlertwo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:04 pm

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:21 pm

Ahhh.... at last somebody gets it. Thank you.

Chris

Is it? Teams are often held together by a philosophy. DCI sections are all there because they choose to be there, making something great together. It's a different form, but it's not inherently better or worse. And Harrison, given the way some classicists view concert bands and military bands, I'm surprised to see you jumping in and sanctioning elitism.

It's whatever you want it to be...a bit like life really... if someone gets what I was alluding to, I'm happy... but I may be talking utter s**t. Talking about playing is a bit like dancing about art...possibly insightful...possibly a waste of time.

Chris

Elow wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:52 am Isn’t new york now all shires?

I believe Dave plays something different.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:59 pm

Elow wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:52 am Isn’t new york now all shires?

I believe Dave plays something different.

He plays yamaha which is pretty uncommon these days in the west.

Gary wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:14 am As a conductor and Musical Director, I only care about results. If one player needs horn X and another horn Y but get the same resulting sound, that's al I care about. If someone's sticking out in the section, then they need to change. But not to a horn/mpc that matches the solo player in equipment, to equipment that allows that player to match the principle in sound.

Now, I'm not naïve, I realise there will be some who take a hard line on equipment, but I consider that more affectation than taste.

Interesting. So do you have the clout to tell a certain player to change instruments? Not sure what you conduct or musical direct but I doubt you'd have any luck getting a player in a major orchestra to change instruments.

who plays a vintage horn?

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:02 pm who plays a vintage horn?

A lot of people on this little island....

Chris

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:02 pm who plays a vintage horn?

Micha Davis. Corp 50b I believe