TromboneChat

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:41 pm**

Hello! Forgive me if this has been asked, the search function is not too optimal... but what are the general characteristics of a silver plated instrument? I have a silver plated bass but I do not have a normal brass bass to compare it to and vice versa for tenor. Is there supposed to be a huge difference in playing characteristics?

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:56 pm**

Tonally, very little difference from the underlying horn. Sometimes there is lacquer over the plate, and sometimes not. Lacquer can have a bigger effect than plating, but it's still minimal.

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:03 pm**

IMO, nothing different than how it was in raw brass. Silver plate is very thin.

Many people like to listen with their eyes and say silver plate is "brighter."

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:10 pm**

Burgerbob wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:03 pm IMO, nothing different than how it was in raw brass. Silver plate is very thin.

Many people like to listen with their eyes and say silver plate is "brighter."

Unlacquered silver plate is brighter than lacquered brass, and sounds pretty close to raw brass.

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:32 pm**

Works great for alto

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:57 pm**

BGuttman wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:10 pm
Burgerbob wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:03 pm IMO, nothing different than how it was in raw brass. Silver plate is very thin.

Many people like to listen with their eyes and say silver plate is "brighter."
Unlacquered silver plate is brighter than lacquered brass, and sounds pretty close to raw brass.

I wouldn't even agree to that. "bright" and "dark" are silly ways to characterize the TINY changes in response and sound we get with raw brass, micron-thick layers of silver plate (or gold plate), or slightly thicker lacquer.

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:04 pm**

I've always thought they've sounded fairly dull except for when you push it really loud, then it can break up and get out of control real quick.

Unrelated note, I love silver plate for marching band

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:22 pm**

In trumpet world it is a huge deal

Posted: **Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:40 pm**

"Covered with tarnish" is one of their characteristics...

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:27 am**

Shiny when polished

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:56 am**

I have a silver plated Corp era 42 which isn't bright sounding.
It's a solid warm sound for which I've had a few compliments.
Just not bright.
Looks great when polished.

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:41 am**

No but silver is brighter than yellow brass, which is brighter than gold and red.

Is it not based on the color?

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:42 am**

Perhaps career suicide to dawn a silver-plated trombone in certain performance settings, especially orchestras and most indoor performance in the US. It also sends off signals of a rebellious spirit. May not be good for one’s social life, and may cause psychological damage to young players who aren’t aware, but who cares. There may be nothing as beautiful and stunning as a polished pristine silver-plated trombone, especially a Bach 42BO. It just looks good.

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:50 am**

They're shiny.

Otherwise, not sure I believe there's much (audible) difference based on finish of any sort.

Kinda curious why silver plate is such a rarity in the trombone world but quite common for trumpets and euphs. Purely fashion?

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:29 am**

Very bright and shiny when polished. The look ... And easier to make solder repairs, if not laquered on top. Does not get rotten by acid spill from cleaning the interior tubing. All together nice things ...

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:04 pm**

This is just completely subjective, but I've always like the way silver plated Conns and Holton's play, but have never found it to improve Bachs or Kings! Perhaps the added mass of the silver (and gold plating if present) makes the tone of the Conns and Kings more substantial, and isn't needed on the Bachs and Kings. Would this observation hold up under blind testing? I dunno?

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:54 pm**

Bach42t wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:42 am Perhaps career suicide to dawn a silver-plated trombone in certain performance settings, especially orchestras and most indoor performance in the US. It also sends off signals of a rebellious spirit. May not be good for one’s social life, and may cause psychological damage to young players who aren’t aware, but who cares. There may be nothing as beautiful and stunning as a polished pristine silver-plated trombone, especially a Bach 42BO. It just looks good.

Thankfully I don't play in orchestras or in concert halls

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:40 pm**

I'd like to see a waveform representation capable of showing a comparison of the effect of various finishes on brass instruments. Such a study would have to exclude the human factor so that activating the standing wave would be unwaveringly reproducible while replicating/duplicating actual human input. I'm not aware of the existence of such a study.

Here are some sources of information on the subject of sound as it relates to musical instruments:

http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?t=75318

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/vie ... %20lacquer.

http://kellerphysics.com/acoustics/Lapp.pdf

https://www.compadre.org/osp/EJSS/4487/272.htm

Posted: **Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:08 pm**

My guess is that the influence of a thin coating of lacquer or silver plate has a secondary audible effect, magnified greatly by the appearance. Who doesn't like the look of a shiny silver bell, or a polished or artistically buffed raw brass bell? A feast for the eyes!

Posted: **Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:19 am**

When I played in Salvation Army bands in the 60s all instruments were expected to be silver. That made my horn an exception in high school. Never noticed any tonal difference, it was simply a visual thing. It is interesting how the trumpet section gravitated to silver horns.

During COVID I put my silver trumpet away because when I left it on the stand it got dingy quickly. I polished it up a retired it to its case and played my lacquered cornet. Recently I got a 59 year old lacquered trumpet to leave on the stand.

Wish my main trumpet and flug were not silver because they take a lot more work to stay nice.

I've grown to appreciate lacquer over brass simply for ease of maintenance. I can hear no difference in my trumpets.

Posted: **Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:49 am**

I have a sterling silver bell 547 Edwards. I tend to only polish it once or twice a year after a season. Fewer people notice it with a light tarnish going on.
I use the sterling bell in the orchestra for softer pieces that do not need an edge to the hits. At one of the rehearsals, a trumpet player sitting in front of me asked about the horn because he liked the sound. He did not see the silver before he asked.
Pink unicorns do show up sometimes.

Posted: **Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:34 am**

The combination of individual components that make the underlying instrument have MUCH more of an influence on how the horn plays than the finish applied, or lack there-of. A great horn will still be great if it is bare, lacquered or silver played, and a dud will still be a dud.

Whitbey we're talking silver plate here, not solid silver. That is a whole 'nother thing altogether!!

Posted: **Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:37 am**

hornbuilder wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:34 am The combination of individual components that make the underlying instrument have MUCH more of an influence on how the horn plays than the finish applied, or lack there-of. A great horn will still be great if it is bare, lacquered or silver played, and a dud will still be a dud.

Whitbey we're talking silver plate here, not solid silver. That is a whole 'nother thing altogether!!

Posted: **Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:27 pm**

It occurred to me that that in comparing silver or gold plated horns with others, was that most plated horns are not lacquered, and the lacquer may make more difference than the plating. And i believe that lacquer has been demonstrated to have some audible effect, though the degree may be often exaggerated.

Posted: **Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:30 pm**

While we are on this subject, what about the Conn 48H, so similar to the 6H and yet so different. The 48H is both plated, in nickel plate, and lacquered. has anyone ever stripped the lacquer on one and noticed any effect? anyone ever stripped the Nickel plate? Asking becuase I have an Elkhart 6H and and Elkhart 48H, and theirs a lot I like about the 48H, but the sound seems less warm than the the 6H.

Posted: **Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:40 pm**

modelerdc wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:30 pm While we are on this subject, what about the Conn 48H, so similar to the 6H and yet so different. The 48H is both plated, in nickel plate, and lacquered. has anyone ever stripped the lacquer on one and noticed any effect? anyone ever stripped the Nickel plate? Asking becuase I have an Elkhart 6H and and Elkhart 48H, and theirs a lot I like about the 48H, but the sound seems less warm than the the 6H.

I believe that the 48H bell (yellow brass, perhaps copper plated, certainly nickel-plated, then lacquered) is thicker and heavier than the 6H (yellow brass, lacquered) bell. I expect that the double (or triple) plating is more responsible for the difference than lacquer.

Posted: **Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:00 am**

Jus to put a little science to this:

1. The effect of lacquer is quite subtle, Many can't tell the difference. You have to be pretty attuned to the sound to hear its effect.

2. Lacquer coatings are on the order of 1 mil (0.001", 25 microns). A thicker coating will certainly dull the sound. Silver plating is typically 50 to 100 microinches, about 1/20 to 1/10 the thickness. Gold plate usually goes over silver as a barrier layer and is often 5 to 10 microinches (less than a micron).

Posted: **Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:18 am**

Well there are differences that you can hear, right? But if play and listen in a dark room there is no difference at all. Go figure.

Posted: **Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:48 am**

Bach42t wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:42 am Perhaps career suicide to dawn a silver-plated trombone in certain performance settings, especially orchestras and most indoor performance in the US.

I'm not sure whether or not you're joking.

I've been a professional trombone player in the US for almost 30 years, and I have never for a minute cared what a colleague's instrument looks like; only if they make sounds that I like and can blend with. That means in time, in tune, in balance, and with a tone color/dynamic curve that is appropriate to the ensemble and repertoire.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2025 7:53 pm**

I know the biggest difference.
It's durable and won't make your hands smell bad even after many years.

I have been using the elkhart factory silver plated BACH16M for over 20 years.
It has been in production for 40 years and the silver plate has not worn off at all.

The lacquer on the newer BACH trombones is peeling off in places.

It has a bell that resonates easily, but this is true of all BACH trombones, and I think the individual differences are greater than the differences in coating.

However, since the production of silver plating is very small, it is possible that a higher quality one was selected.
That's what I would do if I were a factory worker.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2025 3:56 am**

I think silver plated instruments look cool, especially when they darken a little bit with air. So I never polish of the patina. One time the tech did it for me as a free service and I was a little bit disappointed but luckily the patina came back quite fast. Having the coolest looking instrument in a group is an important benefit and should not be neglected in my opinion

Additionally I think silver plating really makes the instrument more durable and improves longevity.

About the sound I'm not sure what effect it has but I'm pretty sure that the sound is much better if it looks cooler.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2025 7:43 am**

cow wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 7:53 pm I know the biggest difference.
It's durable and won't make your hands smell bad even after many years.

I have been using the elkhart factory silver plated BACH16M for over 20 years.
It has been in production for 40 years and the silver plate has not worn off at all.

The lacquer on the newer BACH trombones is peeling off in places.

It has a bell that resonates easily, but this is true of all BACH trombones, and I think the individual differences are greater than the differences in coating.

However, since the production of silver plating is very small, it is possible that a higher quality one was selected.
That's what I would do if I were a factory worker.

Having spent my life in factories… no. You would get the next one in line. I can’t remember from a previous instrument factory job if we played them before silver plating… I don’t think so as that would require additional cleaning and lining that would mess with the plating baths. The cleaning and prep is a larger pain than you would imagine.

Cheers,
Andy

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2025 8:05 am**

I find it really hard to believe that showing up with Silver Plated Trombone would be career suicide. Does anyone say anything to the trumpets when one has a silver plated horn and the person sitting next to them has a lacquered horn? Or the different metals used with Flutes.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2025 8:22 am**

dukesboneman wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 8:05 am I find it really hard to believe that showing up with Silver Plated Trombone would be career suicide. Does anyone say anything to the trumpets when one has a silver plated horn and the person sitting next to them has a lacquered horn? Or the different metals used with Flutes.

The convention of not using silver plated instruments in an orchestral setting doesn't apply to trumpet players. It does seem to apply for French Horn, though. I think I have seen only one plated French Horn in my life. I think "career suicide" is an overstatement, but I very rarely see silver plated trombones in orchestras. I don't play flute, but I imagine they have similar conventions. Trombones have different materials just like flutes do. Yellow brass, gold brass, or red brass are all acceptable. Silver plate just never caught on, for whatever reason.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2025 10:32 am**

Flutes in orchestras are often made of solid 14-18k gold or solid silver ...

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2025 1:56 pm**

harrisonreed wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 10:32 am Flutes in orchestras are often made of solid 14-18k gold or solid silver ...

makes me wonder what a solid 14k-18k gold trombone bell would sound like. expensive as all hell to make no doubt, but I'm curious about the sound and feel. not sure if anyone has tried this before.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2025 2:05 pm**

NotSkilledHere wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 1:56 pm
harrisonreed wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2025 10:32 am Flutes in orchestras are often made of solid 14-18k gold or solid silver ...
makes me wonder what a solid 14k-18k gold trombone bell would sound like. expensive as all hell to make no doubt, but I'm curious about the sound and feel. not sure if anyone has tried this before.

Well, the flute sounds like this:.

So strong even in the lower register. Well, that and the fact that Bezaly is a beast on flute. It's a Muramatsu -- they are pretty famous for their gold flutes. I think Bezaly is playing a 24K flute ... I'm surprised it doesn't deform under light pressure during performances.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2025 2:17 pm**

I might deform it just looking at it intensely at solid 24k haha. that would certainly require a light touch no doubt.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2025 4:23 pm**

Bach42t wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:42 am ... career suicide to dawn a silver-plated trombone in certain performance settings, especially orchestras and most indoor performance in the US.

Fabricated "fact." [Or should I say "Trumped up?"]

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2025 4:24 pm**

Gold is soft, but it's not "that" soft..

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2025 11:14 pm**

Plating matters a lot less than anybody says. Underlying material (weight) is a factor, but not plating.

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2025 5:20 am**

Leanit wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 11:14 pm Plating matters a lot less than anybody says. Underlying material (weight) is a factor, but not plating.

You ever stripped the lacquer off a King? Assuming plating is in lieu of lacquer, in some cases it makes a huge difference.

Posted: **Thu Feb 27, 2025 12:16 pm**

harrisonreed wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 5:20 am
Leanit wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 11:14 pm Plating matters a lot less than anybody says. Underlying material (weight) is a factor, but not plating.
You ever stripped the lacquer off a King? Assuming plating is in lieu of lacquer, in some cases it makes a huge difference.

I have, it's super thick, coming off (with the appropriate nasty strippers) in enormous orange flakes!

I suspect there's a lot more mass on a King from lacquer than from silverplating, which I had understood was the kind of "go to" finish up until WW II, when precious metals became a lot more expensive, seemed to be a kind of wholesale shift to lacquer around then.

Posted: **Thu Feb 27, 2025 12:44 pm**

The switch to lacquer came with the development of the spray gun in the 1930s. Prior to that raw brass was treated with a tarnish preventative that I believe contained hexavalent chromium, which was declared a hazardous substance and can no longer be used. Silver plating was usually an extra cost option.

Note that silver plating is around 1/10 the thickness of a lacquer coat. Silver plated instruments play more like raw brass.

Posted: **Thu Feb 27, 2025 12:54 pm**

harrisonreed wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2025 5:20 am
Leanit wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2025 11:14 pm Plating matters a lot less than anybody says. Underlying material (weight) is a factor, but not plating.
You ever stripped the lacquer off a King? Assuming plating is in lieu of lacquer, in some cases it makes a huge difference.

Plating is a totally different process than lacquering. King didn't plate super heavy.

Posted: **Mon Mar 03, 2025 2:08 pm**

Recently saw a for sale post for a Benge LTD ... a model I was not familiar that they released at the end of their run, basically the 165F paired with a 190 slide. I have in the past tried my silver 190 with yellow 165F slide, but this discovery gave me the idea to try the Benge 165f with the silver 190F slide. Wow! This really gave an interesting timbre and balance to the sound. The leadpipe on the 190 always felt more free-blowing to me than the 165F, so for me this was a win. I guess this is another +1 for the conversation about pairing red or gold brass bells with silver slides (normally in reference to nickel). Still looking for the words to describe the way the all silver 190... I think my ears are just more accustomed to my lacquer-stripped yellow Bach bell, or my Red 165F bells... It just a lot darker compared to my other instruments.. really digging my homebrew Benge LTD.

Posted: **Mon Mar 03, 2025 5:43 pm**

Physical characteristics of a silver horn is tarnish vs no tarnish. Trumpet fairly easy to maintain, silver cloth wipe down about once a month. Still working occasionally on 40 plus years of neglect by previous tuba owners.

Sound wise, I have a silver trumpet and a silver tuba. Not a lot of face time on the tuba so I won’t opine about it, other than to note the old Conn sounds pretty good and makes its presence known.

Trumpet is probably defined as bright or brilliant sounding when I want, but I can tone it down and make it mellow when necessary. Have an old lacquered trumpet with about half the lacquer gone. Old as in probably 90 to one hundred years. That horn is stuck in the mellow sound, but in a way that when I play mine and my grandson plays “Old Gold” the mix works really nice. I have played it a few times when I wanted to mellow out the whole setting. Next step into mellow is the lacquered Conn cornet my son and grandson have used. Not quite a flugalhorn mellow, but again I have pulled that out for being even more mellow than Old Gold.

Trombone is lacquer, which was redone about 30 years ago. As with the trumpet, I can make it bright or mellow, but I’ve never played a silver trombone to have a true comparison. If I stick the funnel shaped King mp into the trombone, really sounds French horn like.

Something to ponder: Does a good French horn player need a French horn to play French horn?

Posted: **Fri Mar 07, 2025 4:50 pm**

As far as silver plate vs brass vs solid sterling silver, they all have nuances from tone to care needed. I have a sterling silver trombone and a gold brass trombone and my euphonium is silver plated.

Silver in the traditional sense does offer a slightly brighter sound or more edgy but I would attribute that to better projection of sound, which is IMO what would be the characteristic of the silver plating. Sterling silver has a very similar characteristic but also comes with the ability to be warmer, so IMO sterling silver has the most flexibility to mold to what you want sound wise.

Many years ago in high school band, we had issues with our french horn section having failing grades and consequently they could not perform for UIL in Texas. Unfortunately the french horns had a solo in the middle of one of the pieces we played. I ad-libbed the solo part as a trombone player one practice session and was told by the director to continue to do so. Our band went to state that year with the ad-libbed solo. So yes a trombone played correctly can definitely sound like a french horn.

Posted: **Mon Mar 10, 2025 11:54 am**

When I got my 48H in the late 60s, I had the only silver bone I saw for years. It was COOL. It's also much brighter than brass, especially in the right lighting conditions!

Posted: **Mon Mar 10, 2025 1:39 pm**

GACMoose wrote: Mon Mar 10, 2025 11:54 am When I got my 48H in the late 60s, I had the only silver bone I saw for years. It was COOL. It's also much brighter than brass, especially in the right lighting conditions!

However, your Conn 48H is not silver-plated. The bell is plated with nickel silver - a cupronickel alloy (60% copper, 20% nickel and 20% zinc). Nickel silver does not contain the element silver. But it is silver-colored.

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