TromboneChat

I have to opportunity to buy an unmolested 290 at a reasonable price. But I've never played one and don't know anything about them.
Are the valves dependent or independent? How are they tuned? Is it a good axe for big band work?
Thanks in advance for any insights.

Do a Google search for images.

They're a good "all round" horn

hornbuilder wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:36 am Do a Google search for images.

They're a good "all round" horn

I know Benge had a close association with King. Do the 290's have the same playing characteristics as the Duo Gravis?

bigbandbone wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:13 am

hornbuilder wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:36 am Do a Google search for images.

They're a good "all round" horn

I know Benge had a close association with King. Do the 290's have the same playing characteristics as the Duo Gravis?

No. Honestly, nothing really plays like a DG.

More like a 7B/8B (somewhere in between the two in size). It's a pretty well regarded horn.

The 290 independent valves with convertible tuning - you can choose Bb/F/Gb/D or Bb/F/G/Eb by removing a spacer in the second valve tuning slide. I played one in big band setting for a while, seemed to work well for that purpose.

I’m in the process of buying a friend’s 290. I’ve been playing it all summer. My impression is that it plays very easily and has a very quick response. I think it would be excellent for a big band although it might not have the “cut” that some like in that situation. That could depend on the player though. Maybe not the last word in overall sound? (I’m thinking of a Toronto player who nicknamed his Bach bass trombone the “Obliterater.”)

It can throw some cut with a 1.5g. Or a 2G as long as you don’t tell your friends.

With a bigger piece it can Orch it up, too

If it’s in good shape and a good price, go for it. I always liked the second valve modularity in G vs Gflat.

Benges are sleepers.

bigbandbone wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:13 am I know Benge had a close association with King. Do the 290's have the same playing characteristics as the Duo Gravis?

It's not really that Benge "had an association" with King. The Benge trombones were made by King.

I have pieced together this story based on fragments I have picked up, so it may not be quite accurate.

In 1972, King bought Benge, a Los Angeles-based maker of fine trumpets that was going out of business. In 1985, G.C. Conn purchased King; later that year both were absorbed by a Swedish conglomerate; the resulting company was named United Musical Instruments (UMI), with manufacturing in Eastlake, Ohio. King stopped making Benge trumpets, but retained the brand name they had purchased.

At some point – perhaps in the mid- to late-1980s (possibly urged on by George Szell, conductor of the Cleveland Orchestra) – King wanted to penetrate the “Classical” market, and redesigned their trombones to produce a “more orchestral” sound. The redesign was led by Chuck Ward at King, who started with the existing King 4BF, and developed an improved line of trombones. Initially labeled with the King name, they were not well received, but when renamed “Benge” they were better accepted. Thus – in the late 1980s (?) – the birth of Benge trombones. The first out of the factory was the Benge 190 (0.547” bore with semi-open-wrap F-attachment), followed later by the Benge 170, 175, 165F, and 290.

All the Benge trombones were well made, by King workers in the King Eastlake factory. In 2000, UMI was purchased by Steinway (the owner of Bach-Selmer), and the corporate name changed to Conn-Selmer, who had little use for yet another brand in their brass instrument stable, so abandoned the Benge name and discontinued manufacturing all the Benge trombones.

Though not very successful in the marketplace, and not highly priced these days, many think that Benge trombones are undervalued treasures.

One small correction - by the time Benge trombones were around George Szell was long gone from Cleveland. The Cleveland section was playing King 5B's (with Anderson playing a 10.5" bell Bach). The Kings were chosen because Szell wanted German trombones, and the section weren't too happy with what they found on that front. The Kings seemed to satisfy Szell as to the sound he was looking for, and the trombonists found them to be more like the other American makes they were used to. Some of the Cleveland players did start playing the Benge trombones when they came out, as did Marcellus and some of the other National Symphony guys. The Benge trombones were quite popular for several years around the late 80's- early 90's. I remember that Jim Pugh had something to do with the small bore Benge design. I've had some students that played Benge horns who sounded quite good on them - nice instruments.

Jim Scott

CalgaryTbone wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:49 pm One small correction - by the time Benge trombones were around George Szell was long gone from Cleveland. The Cleveland section was playing King 5B's ...

I've had some students that played Benge horns who sounded quite good on them - nice instruments.

Jim Scott

Thanks for the clarification Jim. You (and others) surely know this history better than I do. I only got interested in Benge a few years ago when I stumbled on a nicely refurbished Benge 165F, which I enjoyed (pre-pandemic) playing as a backup/alternate to my trusty 1972 Conn 88H. I've seen/heard other nice Benge trombones. Underrated, in my (old-fashioned) view. But I've never seen a Benge 290.

Posaunus wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:45 pmUnderrated

By far the most common adjective used in relation to Benge, but who exactly is underrating them? Just about everyone who comments on Benge trombones agrees that they're good instruments.

spencercarran wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:01 pm

Posaunus wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:45 pmUnderrated

By far the most common adjective used in relation to Benge, but who exactly is underrating them? Just about everyone who comments on Benge trombones agrees that they're good instruments.

Having some first hand experience with Benge, I'd say they're... rated.

I’m just guessing but I wonder if Bach bass trombones dominated in US orchestras from the 1960s until the mid 90s when the first Edwards appeared. It wasn’t that the Benges weren’t decent, it was just that they weren’t Bachs.

FWIW I would probably choose the Benge 290 over a Bach 50. Not saying the Benge is necessarily "better," just matches my preferences a bit closer. YMMV

spencercarran wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:01 pm

Posaunus wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:45 pmUnderrated

By far the most common adjective used in relation to Benge, but who exactly is underrating them? Just about everyone who comments on Benge trombones agrees that they're good instruments.

I'd say more "unheralded" than "underrated". Any school band director has heard of Bach, King, Conn, and Yamaha, whereas Benge trombones were never that well known and become even less so as time passes. As a result, they're often less expensive than the roughly equivalent models from better known brands. Holton is kinda in the same boat as far as trombones.

Not everyone is enthusiastic about Benge trombones - but then not everyone is enthusiastic about the other brands I mentioned, either.

They're underrated in the sense that almost everyone agrees they're good, yet they are not highly desirable for most. Not many people when looking for a horn will look specifically for one of those, or even consider buying them. They end up appealing mostly people looking for more affordable alternatives (although there are high level professionals playing them). Undervalued would be a better qualificative I guess.

Max: “although there are high level professionals playing them)”. Are there? Other than the Clevelanders 30 years ago?

Bach5G wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:27 am Max: “although there are high level professionals playing them)”. Are there? Other than the Clevelanders 30 years ago?

Alan Raph played one.

Great big band bass trombones. Don't let the pro sheeple steer you. Too many pros have to deal with coworkers who listen with their eyes.

CalgaryTbone wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:49 pm One small correction - by the time Benge trombones were around George Szell was long gone from Cleveland. The Cleveland section was playing King 5B's (with Anderson playing a 10.5" bell Bach). The Kings were chosen because Szell wanted German trombones, and the section weren't too happy with what they found on that front. The Kings seemed to satisfy Szell as to the sound he was looking for, and the trombonists found them to be more like the other American makes they were used to. Some of the Cleveland players did start playing the Benge trombones when they came out, as did Marcellus and some of the other National Symphony guys. The Benge trombones were quite popular for several years around the late 80's- early 90's. I remember that Jim Pugh had something to do with the small bore Benge design. I've had some students that played Benge horns who sounded quite good on them - nice instruments.

Jim Scott

I believe the Cincinnati Symphony trombones all played on King 4Bs at some point in the late 60s. I purchased a 4B Sonorous about 15 years ago from a guy who had bought it from his trombone teacher who was with the Cincinnati Symphony, and he was the one who keyed me in to the section's use of the 4B. It was one of the best, warmest trombones I have ever played. But I was looking for a different sound at the time, and eventually sold it after I got my Silver Sonorous. I regret selling it to this day.

BGuttman wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:30 am

Bach5G wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:27 am Max: “although there are high level professionals playing them)”. Are there? Other than the Clevelanders 30 years ago?

Alan Raph played one.

Great big band bass trombones. Don't let the pro sheeple steer you. Too many pros have to deal with coworkers who listen with their eyes.

Hal Janks of the Metropolitan Opera orchestra played one as well.

Somebody said there was one in the Nat Symph at one time.

Mind you, if everybody played one, they’d be double the cost.

LeTromboniste wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:33 am They're underrated in the sense that almost everyone agrees they're good, yet they are not highly desirable for most. Not many people when looking for a horn will look specifically for one of those, or even consider buying them. They end up appealing mostly people looking for more affordable alternatives (although there are high level professionals playing them). Undervalued would be a better qualificative I guess.

Underpriced relative to their quality I'd agree with. Pretty common to see a near pristine 290 go for somewhere in the $1500-$2000 range, when comparable independent basses would usually fetch a higher price.

Not sure what to make of people agreeing they're good but not actually playing them. There are loads and loads of good trombones out there, and most of us can only own so many. I sort of stumbled across each of my trombones at cheap prices by luck, and expect I would've been about equally happy with Benge equivalents if those were the ones I happened across.

David Finlayson won the NY Phil job on a 190, I think. I also think (not 100% sure) that Pete Norton played a 290 in Cincinnati. The late Steve Witser played one on Cleveland, and is playing it on his solo CD, with the center city brass quintet on their CDs and won the LA Phil job on it.

For the premiere performance of Ezra Laderman's "Concerto for 5 Winds & Orchestra" [piccolo, English horn, bass clarinet, piccolo trumpet and bass trombone] I choose a Benge 290 over my beloved King "Duo Gravis" and King 8B. The 290 slotted right in between the clarity of the DG and the weight of the 8B. Perfect when playing in the quintet ! Two of the most enjoyable hours of listening I've ever done to a solo trombone player, was listening to Dave Finlayson on a Benge tenor on a day off with the NSO in Toronto. Impressive, indeed ! Greatly underestimated instruments !

They are nice horns. If it's in good shape and the price is right, why not go for it? Plenty of people love them. Well designed. It's a shame they don't make them anymore. The Benge line was well thought out, but once Conn-Selmer became a thing, they were doomed.

Obviously this horn appeals to some players more than others.
OP, if there's any way for you to try before buying, I'd do that before anything else.

I’m now the owner of a Benge 290.

Bach5G wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:02 pm I’m now the owner of a Benge 290.

So now you'll have to give us a review after you've become used to the Benge 290!

Posaunus wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:10 pm

Bach5G wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:02 pm I’m now the owner of a Benge 290.

So now you'll have to give us a review after you've become used to the Benge 290!

See post #6 above. I liked it enough to buy it although I don’t need a second bass trombone!