TromboneChat

I've started playing small bore horns recently after being a .547 player for years. On .547, I favor 5-ish equivalent rims; I'd settled on a Bach 5GS after lots of back and forth. I also have a 5GS small shank, so I've been using that on this .500 bore horn I'm trying, but it feels a little big. The problem is that if I go to a 6.5AL, I have this weird thing where after a few days, my lower gums will start to feel... "weird"... "uncomfortable" is I guess how others would describe it. If I go with anything smaller than a 6.5 rim (7C, 12C, 11C, etc.), it's even worse, and that's smaller than I want to go anyway. So a 5 rim seems to about the smallest I can go, but I'd like to be able to go a little smaller if possible, so I was wonder if there's anything between a 5 and 6.5 rim. I can compare mouthpiece charts and whatnot, but I'd trust others' experiences over whatever measurements the mouthpiece makers claim. Any thoughts?

I think the issue you're running into is that the 5G, 5GS, 5, etc. have the same rim size, but also drastically different rim profiles. The 5GS I have with me (I have two, of course) has a very, very flat rim that makes it feel quite small and (for me) limits endurance pretty massively.

Perhaps try a Bach 5 (no letter) on the small horn.

I too have a 5GS for the large bore, and the rim is quite flat. But I also have a straight 5. The thing about the 5 rims is (5GB aside) they're typically flatter with a little more bite than the 6 ½A(L/M) rims, in my experience. Of course, Bach variance and such suggests ymmv. My 5, I think, is slightly more round than my 5GS, but still flatter than a 6 ½AL.

Also, a 5GS, like the 6 ½AL, is generally too deep, too open for a typical small bore situation, I've found. I went from a 6 ½AL (a little too dark, in an Olds Ambassador) to a 7C (better but too small, in a Conn 6H) to a 5. FOR ME, it's a better diameter and shallow enough to keep the sound from getting tubby.

There is also a straight 6, supposedly same specs as the 5 but with a rounder rim. I'm sure there are other brands that make pieces around this size. Try as many as you can (considering how tough that can be right now) and see what works for you!

Both the 5GS and 6-1/2AL are designed for larger bore horns than a .500. The biggest problem isn't the rim, it's everything else about it.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:12 am Both the 5GS and 6-1/2AL are designed for larger bore horns than a .500. The biggest problem isn't the rim, it's everything else about it.

I don't think you read my actual question. Do you have a solution to offer to my discomfort for anything at 6.5AL or smaller, or for anything between a 5 and 6.5 rim? Others have recommended a straight 5 rim.

quiethorn wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:35 am

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:12 am Both the 5GS and 6-1/2AL are designed for larger bore horns than a .500. The biggest problem isn't the rim, it's everything else about it.

I don't think you read my actual question. Do you have a solution to offer to my discomfort for anything at 6.5AL or smaller, or for anything between a 5 and 6.5 rim? Others have recommended a straight 5 rim.

Doug's system allows you to have a 5 sized rim (or whatever is the ultimate size for the player) with cup and backbore that will work on a .500 bore horn

Yes I have lots of solutions but you weren't asking about my stuff. You need a rim size and shape that works for you. That may or may not be "between a 5 and 6.5 rim.". And 5/5G/5GS variants can be all over the map in size and shape.

In my stuff I would be looking at an LT 102 rim and a cup in the C to E range and a matching #2 backbore. That's 5 cup choices, depending on your sound preference and range comfort level.

I said 102 because you already know that smaller rims don't work for you. LT102 is slightly on the larger side and probably a safe bet.

Just out of curiosity, what bore horn were 5GS and 6.5AL designed for?

Probably something more like the Bach 36.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:05 am Probably something more like the Bach 36.

Which, interestingly enough, ships with a 7C presently:

MODEL 36

TECH SPECS
.525" medium large bore
8" one-piece hand-hammered yellow brass bell
Yellow brass outer slide
Clear lacquer finish
Bach 7C mouthpiece
C1867SB woodshell case.

https://www.bachbrass.com/instruments/t ... ssional/36

noordinaryjoe wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:44 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:05 am Probably something more like the Bach 36.

Which, interestingly enough, ships with a 7C presently:

I think it's because people view the 6.5AL as a "student" mouthpiece more than anything.

Back in the day (late 1960s / early 1970s) the 6½AL was popular not only with the Bach 36 but also with large bore trombones like the Bach 42 and Conn 88H.

Preferences change. Most players now prefer larger mouthpieces. Progress, I guess.

Dick Nash played most of his career on a 61/2 with his Bach 16

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:15 am Yes I have lots of solutions but you weren't asking about my stuff. You need a rim size and shape that works for you. That may or may not be "between a 5 and 6.5 rim.". And 5/5G/5GS variants can be all over the map in size and shape.

In my stuff I would be looking at an LT 102 rim and a cup in the C to E range and a matching #2 backbore. That's 5 cup choices, depending on your sound preference and range comfort level.

I said 102 because you already know that smaller rims don't work for you. LT102 is slightly on the larger side and probably a safe bet.

Sorry, I should've been more clear and said, "What's between a 5 and 6.5 rim among all the mouthpiece makers?" I wasn't trying to single out Bach, just using them as a reference.

Maybe I'll try one of yours eventually. I tried one of your setups on large bore and it didn't feel right, but maybe small bore would be different.

Well... You didn't ask my advice on that large bore setup. It probably wasn't appropriate for you.

I have buddies that played on the road w Doug
or did Itf show w him
One tried for years to play 11c Doug helped him into
Into some larger shoes The other has s scar on his lip and Doug helped him thru this as well as setting him up with a rim that that is comfortable and has underparts that can optimize w several bores as well as fit old 8Hs etc
It can be very exact
Another buddy really I wish would consult Doug his latest mpcs are the wedge I have boxes of mpcs and he has tried about all of them
If you buy maybe 30 or 40 used and new 6-1/2al
a couple might work better than others just throw them in another box

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:59 pm Well... You didn't ask my advice on that large bore setup. It probably wasn't appropriate for you.

That's very likely the case.

Gonna chime in with a direct response to the original question.

The Brassark (or Bach if you can find one) Clarke is just a touch tighter than a 5-ish piece, and to me the rim feels just a bit bigger than a 6-1/2.
The cup is just a bit shallower than the one 6-1/2AL I have laying around as well.
Personal opinion only, ymmv.