Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

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Crazy4Tbone86
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Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:51 am

Does anybody know if the slide male tapers on Bach 6 and/or Bach 8 slides are the same as the other tenor-shank-mouthpiece Bach trombones? I know that Bach 12, Bach 16 and Bach 36 slides and bells are interchangeable....at least the horns I had simultaneously in my shop a few years ago were. I'm trying to figure out if the Bach 6 and Bach 8 have the same male taper on the slide. If it is the same, I am assuming the bell female receiver, bell lock nut and nut threading are all the same. Thanks in advance!
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Elow » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:00 am

I’m pretty sure all small bores have the same receiver and tenon. But i could be very wrong
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:07 am

Yep, I don't want to assume anything and buy expensive parts. I have a customer interested in building a smaller slide for his Bach 16. Unfortunately, getting answers from the Conn-Selmer company is like getting answers from the federal government.
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Elow » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:11 am

Could always get an edwards, better customer service probably
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Oslide » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:18 am

Recently, there was talk about Bach tenons. Maybe you find an answer there.

Do Bach 16/12/8 slides have same tenons?
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=13607
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Crazy4Tbone86
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:15 am

Thanks Oslide! I think I have my answer. Now I must figure out if a Bach 6 or Bach 8 tenon is available. It appears that Conn-Selmer might be phasing out those models. I might be ordering a larger part and creating a shim for it?!?
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Burgerbob » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:51 pm

Might be easier to find a used slide. All the tenons will fit (including Bach 39!)
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:29 pm

It's not that easy to find a Bach Strad slide in scrap metal form that is being sold for a bargain price! I'll see if Conn-Selmer or one of their dealers has the parts first. Some companies have instrument components long after they discontinue an instrument.
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Doug Elliott » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:55 pm

So are you saying 6 and 8 are the same, but different from 12/16/16M?

I have a 6 and an 8, but not the others.
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Burgerbob » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:30 pm

All the Bach small bores (except the 4) are the same. Not sure about the inner diameters, though.
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Doug Elliott » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:42 pm

I guess the taper is the same on all but the bore is different to accept the different inners.
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:50 pm

It appears that the male taper on the lower slide is the same (on the outside) for all of the Bach tenor-shank models. I imagine it is a standard Morse taper. The diameter on the inside is different depending on the bore size of the inner slide. This also means that the metal is thicker on the tapers of the smaller bore trombones.

Another interesting design feature about this section of Bach trombones is that the taper and the 90 degree brace that holds the inner slide were two different pieces for decades. Now, the two are machined into one piece. I think they made the switch sometime in the last 20 years. The Bach cork barrels were and continue to be separate parts.

Conn also had three separate pieces for this section in the old days. Now the Conn parts have all three (the taper, the 90 degree brace that holds inner slide, and the cork barrel) are machined as one piece.

As a person who builds custom Bach and Conn horns, the one-piece construction of this section creates a little extra work. If a person wants a horn with a shorter left-hand reach (from rotor lever to inner slide brace), I must cut these sections apart and trim them down on a lathe. When they were separate parts, trimming the length and moving around these parts was easier and faster.
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:51 pm

Doug,
We were thinking the same thing simultaneously!
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by elmsandr » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:29 am

Burgerbob wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:30 pm
All the Bach small bores (except the 4) are the same. Not sure about the inner diameters, though.
Why do you think the 4 is different?

Pictured a NY Bach Soprano (.458ish bore) and NY Bach 34 with slides swapped.
9CD47CF9-3237-4058-A326-8472D1A13AB7.jpeg
9CD47CF9-3237-4058-A326-8472D1A13AB7.jpeg (5.76 MiB) Viewed 800 times
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Grahambone » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:17 am

FWIW, my newly acquired Bach Model 4 has the same tenon as my Elkhart LT6 and Benn's Corp Model 12 I have been borrowing.

Model 4 TS is way smaller, tubes and crook.

Graham Middleton
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Doug Elliott » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:44 am

Bach soprano.... Cool
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Burgerbob » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 pm

Grahambone wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:17 am


Model 4 TS is way smaller, tubes and crook.

Graham Middleton
This is what I was thinking of, as well as the model 2? alto.
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:29 pm

I’m just like Doug. As soon as you show me a Bach soprano trombone.....ehh, what were we talking about?

I have never heard of a Bach 4!
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by elmsandr » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:10 am

Fine, here's some catalog/glamour shots:

Bach Soprano:
31.gif
31.gif (35.65 KiB) Viewed 490 times
Different tuning mechanism than mine, matches the couple (three?) owned by a famous Moravian trombone choir.

Model 1 Alto:
MtVernonAlto02.jpg
MtVernonAlto02.jpg (35.24 KiB) Viewed 490 times
Not mine, saw it for sale and decided that I really have no need for an alto, let alone a vintage expensive one.

Model 4:
Scan0012.jpg
Scan0012.jpg (454.62 KiB) Viewed 490 times
specs for reference.

Cheers,
Andy
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:43 pm

Thanks. Yep, I knew about the Bach Model 1 alto trombone. There's even a YouTube video where a guy describes his Bach 1...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTIqa7lSGTA

I didn't know about the Bach soprano trombone and the Bach Model 4. I am assuming that the Model 4 is a standard B-flat tenor trombone, just a very small bore.
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:47 pm

Going to attempt to bring closure to this thread. I had an inquiry about making a Bach-style straight bore .490 nickel slide for Bach 16 trombone. In other words, this person wants me to make a Bach 8LT slide for his Bach 16 trombone. I already have some of the parts in my collection. The part that I was most concerned about was the Bach 8 male taper that connects to the bell section. It appears that Conn-Selmer no longer produces the Bach 6 and Bach 8 models. Therefore, I will not be able to purchase that particular part.

I have decided to proceed by investigating two options:

*Advising this guy to just search for a used Bach 8LT slide.
*Make the slide, but use a Bach 36 male taper. I think I have a lead on an old Bach 36 taper and I have some tubing that should be the perfect size for a shim.

Thanks to everyone for their input. I always enjoy it when a question takes us on a roller coaster ride!
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by bimmerman » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:10 pm

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:47 pm
Going to attempt to bring closure to this thread. I had an inquiry about making a Bach-style straight bore .490 nickel slide for Bach 16 trombone. In other words, this person wants me to make a Bach 8LT slide for his Bach 16 trombone. I already have some of the parts in my collection. The part that I was most concerned about was the Bach 8 male taper that connects to the bell section. It appears that Conn-Selmer no longer produces the Bach 6 and Bach 8 models. Therefore, I will not be able to purchase that particular part.

I have decided to proceed by investigating two options:

*Advising this guy to just search for a used Bach 8LT slide.
*Make the slide, but use a Bach 36 male taper. I think I have a lead on an old Bach 36 taper and I have some tubing that should be the perfect size for a shim.

Thanks to everyone for their input. I always enjoy it when a question takes us on a roller coaster ride!
I know this is an old thread and you've probably solved the issue, but since I have an 8LT slide and 16/16M slides (and a 9), I could measure the ID and the OD tapers for you. I am pretty sure they're the same since I can swap the associated 6vii/8/16/16m bells around without issue. I don't have a 36 slide handy, however.
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Re: Compatibility of smaller Bach slide-to-bell tapers

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:57 pm

Hey bimmerman,

Thanks! I have actually been able to solve the problem. A buddy of mine had an old 36 taper and I picked it up yesterday. When I got home, I reached in my junk bin and pulled out a random piece of scrap tubing......it turned out to be the perfect size for a shim! The taper, shim and inner slide tube are like a custom fit.

It was nice to have luck on my side this time! I cannot tell you how many times I have rummaged through hundreds of parts looking for a specific item and never found the correct part. These parts are gathered in a box and waiting assembly. There are about five or six rebuilds in front of it.
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