Bell vibration

Post Reply
Andyc
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:36 pm

Bell vibration

Post by Andyc » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:23 pm

My 1970 Elkhart Conn 88H has recently developed a sympathetic vibration while playing notes in fifth position. I’ve had two reputable technicians try to figure out what is causing this. Soldering has been checked, the valve has been cleaned, and the slide also has been checked. The spring in the slide has been rotated in the slide as well. Unfortunately, the vibration cause cannot be found! Has anyone else experienced this, and if so what was done to repair it? Thanks
Elow
Posts: 418
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:18 am

Re: Bell vibration

Post by Elow » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:57 pm

I’ve got a 69 71H that has the same problem, if anyone has a solution that would be great. I always thought it was the springs and then i put a different slide on it and it still rings. My ring notes are E and Eb above the staff
ZacharyThornton
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:51 am

Re: Bell vibration

Post by ZacharyThornton » Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:08 pm

I am very good at figuring these out. What I do is have someone find what note is the problem... play it as I walk around dampening different parts of the horn. I do this just but touching them. Eventually you will touch something that stops the sound. Now fixing it after that can be a problem.
User avatar
harrisonreed
Posts: 1499
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Location: Yokohama, Japan

Re: Bell vibration

Post by harrisonreed » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:12 pm

Here's some stuff to try:

1. Clean the tuning slides and add slide grease / slide gel. This is often all it takes to stop the vibration.

2. Take apart, clean, oil, and reassemble your rotor. Use a proper bearing oil on the spindle and bearing plate, and ball joint grease on the linkages.

3. If the above two don't solve it, you have loose solder somewhere. As a temporary solution, you can wrap the throat of the bell around the bell flange with a sports wrap (like a wrist wrap), KT tape, electrical tape, leather, etc. This will make the vibration go away 99% of the time, but of course you have to eventually find it where the weak point is and have it fixed.
Andyc
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:36 pm

Re: Bell vibration

Post by Andyc » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:30 pm

Thanks for the input. Unfortunately, all of these recommendations have been tried already including checking the solder connections. I am wondering if the valve needs to be rebuilt.
bigbandbone
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:45 am

Re: Bell vibration

Post by bigbandbone » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:02 pm

Had a 3B that vibrated on F# above the staff. It was a piece of solder trapped inside the bell brace. Not an inexpensive problem to solve. Good luck!
Doubler
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:56 pm

Re: Bell vibration

Post by Doubler » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:20 pm

Andyc, does it make the noise wherever you play, or just in one room?
Current instruments:
Olds Studio trombone, 3 trumpets, 1 flugelhorn, 1 cornet, 1 shofar, 1 keyboard

Previous trombones:
Selmer Bundy, Marceau
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: Bell vibration

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:28 pm

Andyc,

When you say "sympathetic vibration," do you mean a non-pitch rattle or a ringing in the bell of a distinct pitch? Most of the advice that people have sent you have been about non-pitched rattles, i.e. loose solder joints, absence of solder in a joint, candy wrappers being stuck in the tubing, etc.... If this is what your problem is, there is one more place that could be the source of your rattle.....inside the hollow brace tubes. If there is loose solder inside the brace tubes, it can rattle on particular pitches. Sometimes you can even hear the balls of solder rolling back and forth when you tilt your instrument in different directions. Since you heard the sound when you used a different slide, it sounds like you might have loose solder in one of the three hollow brace tubes that are on your bell section.

If your "sympathetic vibration" is a ringing of a particular pitch, that is a completely different problem. Actually, some people don't consider it a problem. I've heard people say that they love their trombone "because the bell rings a B-flat for several seconds after I stop playing." I was told many years ago (and I still believe it) that if a trombone rings to a particular pitch, it obviously favors that pitch but it is very likely that one or more other pitches are dead or "wolf tones" on the instrument. For that reason, I always look for bells that have a non-pitch sound when you flick the bell rim with your fingernail. Those bells always seem to be very even and balanced when installed on a trombone.

Anyway, back to how to solve a "pitch ringing" bell. When I was being trained as a tech, a very wise man explained to me that most bells that ring on a particular pitch have a flat spot or multiple flat spots on the bell stem, the bell throat, or on the flare. These flat spots can be found on any bell.....brand new or a bell that has been smashed and then repaired. The solution is to carefully massage out the flat spots with the proper tools. Most techs (and trombone players) can see the flat spots when they are on the bell flare. It's the bells that have flat spots in the throat and in the stem that are harder to find. I have had several professional players come to me complaining about the "bell ringing" problem and I solved it by working their bell stems and throats on the proper mandrels in order to make them completely round. The result was bells that no longer rang on specific pitches and usually the elimination of some "wolf tones."
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
Andyc
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:36 pm

Re: Bell vibration

Post by Andyc » Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:58 pm

This ringing in the bell occurs only when playing F sharp in fifth position. The tech. told me that when he flicks the bell, it vibrates a great deal.

I once had a Bach 42B in college that had a ringing in several partials. This turned out to be a loose bead of solder in the bell and was repaired. I really appreciate the input and will pass this on to my technician. Thanks so much!
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: Bell vibration

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:06 pm

You still haven't described the sound. Is it a non-pitch rattle/vibration or a discernible pitch. If it is a pitch, what is the pitch?

I have found the most common pitches that ring are B-flat, B-natural, C and D at the top of the bass clef. Many times, the B-flat is a flat spot in the bell flare issue. Many times, the C and D are bell stem/throat issues. Notice that I said "many times." There are no hard and fast rules with bells that ring.
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
Andyc
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:36 pm

Re: Bell vibration

Post by Andyc » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:40 am

There is a loud ringing in the bell only when F sharp is played in fifth position. It can only be heard on that note. Everything stated above has been tried with no solution. However, a very well-known trombone-maker, player, and technician stated that he has heard of this occurring several times in Elkhart Conn’s and stated to maybe add a brace or add weight to the bell below the main bell brace. He said that taping something the size of a mouthpiece shank there may tell if that can help. He also recommended soldering a piece of half round “guard molding”, euphonium size, a couple of inches long which can be obtained from Allied. It is quite possible that one of these methods may fix the problem.
User avatar
ssking2b
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Bell vibration

Post by ssking2b » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:25 am

There was, a long time ago, a device called an AMEREIN TONE RING. The WWBW had it for a while, and then the only place to get it was from Phil Parker Ltd in London, UK. It seems no one has it now, but you can make one easily! It will stop the ringing without completely deadening your bell. But don't solder it, line the flat side of it with cork and Just slide it onto the bell. Here's how:

Get about 6 inches of the mentioned half round “guard molding”, euphonium size. Line it with a thin cork lining. Shape it like a "C" and slip it onto your bell. Alow it to slide down the bell till the bell flare stops it, then give at a very small downward "screw" to snug it on the bell. Problem solved! And it's removable with NO damage to your bell! Pinch the "C" smaller to catch further up, or open the "C" up a bit to let it sit further down the bell flair.

I have on on my vintage Elkhart 1964 88H and it works great. stopped the bell ringing I had on a G overtone series, yet the horn still plays like an 88H should - not a total dead sound like most current .547 size horns.

I can take pix and post them if you want.
===============================================
XO Brass Artist - http://www.pjonestrombone.com
===============================================
Andyc
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:36 pm

Re: Bell vibration

Post by Andyc » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:45 am

Pictures would be great. Thank you!
marccromme
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:03 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: Bell vibration

Post by marccromme » Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:39 am

I had a similar problem with my B&S alto trombone, which I solved with a 6 mm diameter clear plastic tubing from the hardware shop. Sliced open, and melted together as a ring to fit over the bell rim. That took all funny ringing, yet had no bad influence otherwise. Cheap, easy, and almost unvisible from a meter, cause its clear plastic. Worth a try.

Will only work if dampening the bell rim with your fingers works.
User avatar
heinzgries
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:52 pm
Location: Heidelberg/germany

Re: Bell vibration

Post by heinzgries » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:12 am

marccromme wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:39 am
I had a similar problem with my B&S alto trombone, which I solved with a 6 mm diameter clear plastic tubing from the hardware shop. Sliced open, and melted together as a ring to fit over the bell rim. That took all funny ringing, yet had no bad influence otherwise. Cheap, easy, and almost unvisible from a meter, cause its clear plastic. Worth a try.

Will only work if dampening the bell rim with your fingers works.
you have a pm
baileyman
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:33 pm

Re: Bell vibration

Post by baileyman » Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:33 am

Drummers use a sticky silicone to dampen heads. Could stick a bit of that here or there until it works. Or a fishing worm.
Andyc
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:36 pm

Re: Bell vibration

Post by Andyc » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:28 pm

ssking2b wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:25 am
There was, a long time ago, a device called an AMEREIN TONE RING. The WWBW had it for a while, and then the only place to get it was from Phil Parker Ltd in London, UK. It seems no one has it now, but you can make one easily! It will stop the ringing without completely deadening your bell. But don't solder it, line the flat side of it with cork and Just slide it onto the bell. Here's how:

Get about 6 inches of the mentioned half round “guard molding”, euphonium size. Line it with a thin cork lining. Shape it like a "C" and slip it onto your bell. Alow it to slide down the bell till the bell flare stops it, then give at a very small downward "screw" to snug it on the bell. Problem solved! And it's removable with NO damage to your bell! Pinch the "C" smaller to catch further up, or open the "C" up a bit to let it sit further down the bell flair.

I have on on my vintage Elkhart 1964 88H and it works great. stopped the bell ringing I had on a G overtone series, yet the horn still plays like an 88H should - not a total dead sound like most current .547 size horns.

I can take pix and post them if you want.
The trombone is playing great now, and the vibration is now gone! Thanks for the suggestion! I contacted Ken Pope at www.poperepair.com in Boston, and they were able to make me a tone ring. The horn slots better and seems to project better as well!
Attachments
1C58379D-7D15-4864-967C-E6B3175E6E3D.jpeg
Installed on the trombone
1C58379D-7D15-4864-967C-E6B3175E6E3D.jpeg (85.75 KiB) Viewed 587 times
E8D516EB-0996-47C2-BAB4-FAF289F2C69E.jpeg
Before installation
E8D516EB-0996-47C2-BAB4-FAF289F2C69E.jpeg (49.16 KiB) Viewed 587 times
User avatar
harrisonreed
Posts: 1499
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Location: Yokohama, Japan

Re: Bell vibration

Post by harrisonreed » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:02 pm

Nearly the same solution as the tape or leather wrap I suggested. Surprised that this worked when the tape didn't.
Andyc
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:36 pm

Re: Bell vibration

Post by Andyc » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:40 am

Thanks for your suggestion as well regarding the tape, as i forgot to mention that this also works. Sorry. However, I needed something more permanent that blends in better with the looks of the horn. Again, thanks.
User avatar
harrisonreed
Posts: 1499
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Location: Yokohama, Japan

Re: Bell vibration

Post by harrisonreed » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:43 am

Andyc wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:40 am
Thanks for your suggestion as well regarding the tape, as i forgot to mention that this also works. Sorry. However, I needed something more permanent that blends in better with the looks of the horn. Again, thanks.
You get the added benefit of the effects of a screw bell too. It looks good!
Andyc
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:36 pm

Re: Bell vibration

Post by Andyc » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:59 am

I was thinking that. Thanks!
User avatar
ssking2b
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Bell vibration

Post by ssking2b » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:10 am

My pleasure! It's a great solution and looks good, too. Ken Pope did a great job. It looks almost identical to the tone ring I I have.
===============================================
XO Brass Artist - http://www.pjonestrombone.com
===============================================
Post Reply

Return to “Modification & Repair”