TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by brassmedic » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:24 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:21 pm

If Lassus is really such an awful work, it will die a natural death into obscurity, much like a lot of the other pieces RobCat showed in his post (the only one I had even heard of was the Joplin rag).
Perhaps you hadn't heard of them because nobody is going to put "De Coon dat had de Razor" on his recital. Perhaps you have heard of Felicity Rag because it's not a racist title. A lot of things die into obscurity because they are racist and people don't display those things being that they are offensive to a lot of people. It's not a "natural death"; it is quite deliberate. Until recently, I had never heard of a Popeye the Sailor cartoon called, "You're a Sap, Mr. Jap". It was a WW2 propaganda cartoon. No broadcaster in his right mind is going to play that on the air, because it's racist. Does that mean it "died a natural death" because it was a really poorly made cartoon? No, the production quality is just as good as any other Popeye cartoon. It's just that most thoughtful people in society choose not to present racist material that's going to offend the audience. What's wrong with that?

The problem with Lassus Trombone is that the meaning of the title, and the fact that it is a bad parody of black jazz trombone players, is not immediately obvious if one chooses to be oblivious to it. I was one of those people. I just assumed "Lassus" was somebody's name, and all the glissing was just a cute trick the composer did. Now that I have been educated, I can no longer claim that I don't know. And you can't legitimately argue that nobody knows about this, because obviously some people do. "I only offended 20% of my audience" is a pretty sorry excuse for programming something that's offensive.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by BGuttman » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:44 pm

I have a book I inherited from my father that was a Groucho Marx humor book. It had a cartoon on the cover of Groucho swinging a mallet onto a stack of 3 heads: Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, and Emperor Hirohito. The contents were topical humor that quite frankly is dated today. And I don't think it deserves space at my local Barnes and Noble.

The time to ditch Lassus Trombone was in the 1960s, when we first decided to ditch the mean racial stereotypes. Instead, the crude subtitles were removed and the image sanitized. Just like the makeovers for Aunt Jemimah and Uncle Ben.

Yet the old copy surfaces and people take umbrage. Seems mostly people who are more worried about image.

If you can't get over the old titles, by all means stop playing them. I'm going to issue a plaque explaining that it was intended to be a humorous piece and happens to have a name similar to Jim Crow (and dating from about the same period).

Can you enjoy the Pryor solo as "Cakewalk Contest" when you couldn't enjoy it as "Coon Band Revue"? (It's not one of his best, but it's not bad.)
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by brassmedic » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:26 pm

There is no "old title", Bruce. The title of Lassus Trombone was not ever changed. But then you knew that, because we have said it many, many times. You're being disingenuous.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by GabrielRice » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:39 pm

Bruce, you're making no sense. We should have ditched it in the 60s, so now it's too late? Let it go. Just let it go.

Why is this so hard?

I guess I'll issue the challenge to you now. Bruce, what are you doing in your life to combat racism?
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by GabrielRice » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:58 pm

Funny how I never get a response to that challenge.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by brassmedic » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:09 pm

GabeLangfur wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:58 pm
Funny how I never get a response to that challenge.
Funny. Not funny.

Bruce invalidated himself when he compared us to Nazis, and it occurs to me that by arguing with him, I'm implying that his arguments are even worth scrutiny, which they are not. By giving him attention, I'm just making things worse. So...

Buh bye. :hi:
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by WilliamLang » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:44 pm
Can you enjoy the Pryor solo as "Cakewalk Contest" when you couldn't enjoy it as "Coon Band Revue"? (It's not one of his best, but it's not bad.)
For myself, once I know the history behind the name change I would not enjoy it, if I ever did in the first place.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by BGuttman » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:19 pm

GabeLangfur wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:58 pm
Funny how I never get a response to that challenge.
I'm not a member of the police force. I can't stop police brutality.
I'm not in a position to hire Blacks in my business (I don't have a business).
I regularly vote in favor of candidates who espouse equality and fairness.
I am on friendly terms with a Black musician in my orchestra.

No, I can't participate in a BLM rally. They won't get much use from somebody who needs a walker and can't march more than a block or two.

Don't know what else. I can't erase the crude images of "cullud music" from 100 years ago; I can just call it for what it is.

Sorry if this isn't "woke" enough for you.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by GBP » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:50 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:19 pm
GabeLangfur wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:58 pm
Funny how I never get a response to that challenge.
I am on friendly terms with a Black musician in my orchestra.
There it is, the “I know a black black guy”. Perfect.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by BGuttman » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:00 pm

GBP wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:50 pm
BGuttman wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:19 pm


I am on friendly terms with a Black musician in my orchestra.
There it is, the “I know a black black guy”. Perfect.
I live in the whitest state in the Union. I'm amazed I know one!
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by Kingfan » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:38 pm

OK, I'll add another tune to the discussion. Our brass quintet played a piece called "Gollywog's Cakewalk", a Claude Debussy piece meant for children written in the early 1900s. A few years ago, our African-American tuba player politely asked we retire it from our book. He then explained the origins of both words. The general response was "holy s**t, we had no idea. We're so sorry". We instantly took it out of the book and never play it again. The explanation is below, from Wikipedia and other sources edited down for brevity.

The golliwog, golliwogg or golly is a doll-like character that appeared in children's books in the late 19th century. The doll is characterized by black skin, eyes rimmed in white, red lips and frizzy hair. While some people see the doll as a symbol of childhood and an innocuous toy, it is considered as racist by others along with pickaninnies, minstrels, mammy figures, and other caricatures of black Africans. The golliwog has been described by the Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia as "the least known of the major anti-Black caricatures in the United States".In recent years, changing political attitudes with regard to race have reduced the popularity and sales of golliwogs as toys. Manufacturers who have used golliwogs as a motif (e.g. Robertson's marmalade in the UK) have either withdrawn them as an icon or changed the name. In particular, the association of the golliwog with the pejorative term "wog" has resulted in use of alternative names such as "golly" and "golly doll". The word "wog" is slang for a nonwhite person, esp. a dark-skinned person, as one who is Arab or black: a term of hostility and contempt.

The cakewalk is originally an African-American form of dance and music that developed after the Civil War, later popularized by minstrel shows. It was danced at social events, with the best dancers often receiving cake as a prize. It derives from dance competitions by plantation slaves in which the style of dance lampooned the ballroom dances of the slave owners. The slave owners seem to have found the competitions entertaining and the habit of offering cake may originate from this period. The name is sometimes also applied to the dance's precursor on the plantations.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing! :D
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by brassmedic » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:34 am

BGuttman wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:00 pm
GBP wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:50 pm


There it is, the “I know a black black guy”. Perfect.
I live in the whitest state in the Union. I'm amazed I know one!
Keep digging that hole, Bruce. :lol:
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by mrdeacon » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:37 am

Kingfan wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:38 pm
The cakewalk is originally an African-American form of dance and music that developed after the Civil War, later popularized by minstrel shows. It was danced at social events, with the best dancers often receiving cake as a prize. It derives from dance competitions by plantation slaves in which the style of dance lampooned the ballroom dances of the slave owners. The slave owners seem to have found the competitions entertaining and the habit of offering cake may originate from this period. The name is sometimes also applied to the dance's precursor on the plantations.
Wow! I had no idea... Kind of a shame because Goliwog Cakewalk is actually a pretty cool piece but not cool enough to ever perform after understanding the context.

That does mean the Pyror piece Bruce keeps bringing up,
Cakewalk Contest, does actually still have a racist name despite being renamed. Sorry Bruce.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by 8parktoollover » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:38 am

I think music means what you want it to mean. If you interperet it as racist then it's racist, if you don't it's not. I think lassus is a recognizable piece that has lost it's original meaning long ago. I don't think it's racist but I wouldn't play it to avoid complications.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by WilliamLang » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:18 am

that's not it chief.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by LeTromboniste » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:25 am

8parktoollover wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:38 am
I think music means what you want it to mean. If you interperet it as racist then it's racist, if you don't it's not.
Then we should never again invoke the "composer's intention" when discussing interpretation, right? Or does the composer's intention only matter when it's not offensive?

I think this is nonsense. Art isn't just meant to be pretty, it's meant to communicate ideas and meaning. The interpreter has a role in deciding what meaning their performance has, but it requires giving it meaning, not merely ignoring the inherent meaning of the composition.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by 8parktoollover » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:55 am

I guess this is a different topic and I don't want to start a big argument. But what happens if the listener can't pick up on the intentions and interperets the music as something different? Is their veiw on the music not legitimate?
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by WilliamLang » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:01 am

music and art don't exist in a vacuum. it's pretentious to say otherwise.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by LeTromboniste » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:42 am

8parktoollover wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:55 am
I guess this is a different topic and I don't want to start a big argument. But what happens if the listener can't pick up on the intentions and interperets the music as something different? Is their veiw on the music not legitimate?
So first the composer's intention didn't matter, we can decide what meaning we want to convey as a performer out if thin air, now our meaning doesn't actually matter either because anyway the audience can make up their own meaning of the art? That's convenient...and a pretty coward way to deny any responsibility as artists. I don't think a performer who thinks that way would be very interesting to listen to. If you don't think you have something to communicate and don't think it matters how you communicate because the audience won't notice or care or be influenced by you, then maybe art and performance aren't for you.

Yes the audience member's interpretation is legitimate, but it is beyond your control as a performer. It still doesn't mean you don't have a responsibility, or that you shouldn't try to communicate your meaning or the composer's. The audience's interpretation won't be the same as yours but doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's shaped by the music itself but also by your interpretation, their knowledge and understanding of the composer's intention and the musical and historical context, as well as by the context in which they hear the music (e.g. the way you frame it as a performer, for example how it's programmed and what other music you program alongside it). You can't take the historical context nor the composer's intention out of the equation, and you can't deny responsibility for your interpretation and programming choices.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by 8parktoollover » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:53 am

LeTromboniste wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:42 am
8parktoollover wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:55 am
I guess this is a different topic and I don't want to start a big argument. But what happens if the listener can't pick up on the intentions and interperets the music as something different? Is their veiw on the music not legitimate?
So first the composer's intention didn't matter, we can decide what meaning we want to convey as a performer out if thin air, now our meaning doesn't actually matter either because anyway the audience can make up their own meaning of the art? That's convenient...and a pretty coward way to deny any responsibility as artists. I don't think a performer who thinks that way would be very interesting to listen to. If you don't think you have something to communicate and don't think it matters how you communicate because the audience won't notice or care or be influenced by you, then maybe art and performance aren't for you.

Yes the audience member's interpretation is legitimate, but it is beyond your control as a performer. It still doesn't mean you don't have a responsibility, or that you shouldn't try to communicate your meaning or the composer's. The audience's interpretation won't be the same as yours but doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's shaped by the music itself but also by your interpretation, their knowledge and understanding of the composer's intention and the musical and historical context, as well as by the context in which they hear the music (e.g. the way you frame it as a performer, for example how it's programmed and what other music you program alongside it). You can't take the historical context nor the composer's intention out of the equation, and you can't deny responsibility for your interpretation and programming choices.
I understand.
But I don't interperet lassus as racist because it lost it's racist weight long ago. I know there are people who would disagree so it's best to avoid playing to be safe. I think people should feel free to play their interperetation and we shouldn't be limited to what other people think.I never said music is in a vaccume. What I meant is that many people seem to think that there is a right and a wrong way to feel about music.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by WilliamLang » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:33 am

it has not lost it's racist weight.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by 8parktoollover » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:48 am

WilliamLang wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:33 am
it has not lost it's racist weight.
I'm sure the number of people offended by lassus is miniscule.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by WilliamLang » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:01 pm

you are wrong. this thread alone is evidence otherwise.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by 8parktoollover » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:05 pm

No. The fact that Lassus is mote than 100 years old and there has never been a problem with it until now proves that it had lost most of its racist weight. People are just trying to restore it's racist weight so they can find more things to cancel.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by WilliamLang » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:22 pm

there have been problems with it throughout, as per doug's articles, and other articles that have been referenced here in this thread. minsterly and racist depictions of african-american peoples have been an issue in the entirety of american history, and has never not been an issue. lassus and it's companion pieces are a part of that history.

you're just wrong. take an opportunity here to learn.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by GabrielRice » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:44 pm

The fact that you didn't know there was problem until now doesn't mean there wasn't.

I will admit I was not aware of the significance of Juneteenth until very recently. I was aware of the Tulsa Massacre before that, but not by much - maybe a couple of years. Great swaths of history get ignored until people are brave enough to shed light on them.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by Posaunus » Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:01 pm

8parktoollover wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:48 am
I'm sure the number of people offended by lassus is miniscule.
Perhaps that's true in Israel. But not so much here in the United States, which has a rather different cultural history than your country.

Do you really think it's merely a matter of people trying to "find more things to cancel" – or are you just prodding at a hornet's nest to stir things up?

Is there nothing musically or artistically that is not considered offensive in Israel?

Please do not impose your values on those of us who must daily face racism and its consequences. This is a very personal matter to many of us.

Perhaps when you mature beyond your 14 years and your apparently privileged existence, you will learn to become a better listener, find some compassion, and care more for the feelings of others.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by brassmedic » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:35 pm

I know I said I was leaving, but I just had to laugh after that last post. I was thinking about all the times I've argued with people on the web, and others have said to me, "You do realize you're arguing with a 14 year old, right?"
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by DougHulme » Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:22 pm

I take Ed Solomns understanding retort that said something like 'I get it - no uk trombonists need apply'. I understand that to you Americans it is different and far more deep seated. For that reason I am not going to try and contribute on the fors and against in this argument (for it surely has become an argument rather than a discussion?). However I can see how this discussion has gone and how it is becoming divided.

There is common ground however in that no one is agreeing with racism so I can safely say we are all agreed on something take heart in that when you are annoyed by someone elses lack of understanding.

I can see the concern some have here if we do act on Lassus - If I might use the UK as an example -The UK doesent really have a written constitution nor that many laws actually written down. The rule of law is established case by case or by precedent. Precedent can then be applied to any case that has the same principal involved even though the facts and circumstances are different. I know none of this is law but in principle it applies. I think what some are saying here is that if we agree to ban Lassus that creates a precedent in much the same way as UK law and if we dont abide by that precedent or we vary it we can be accused of being hypocrytical. Put another way if we agree not to play Lassus because either it or the composer is racist we must apply the same rule/principal to everything and everyone - that would include big hitters like Wagner et al so it seems to me without offering an opinion on the rights or wrongs of this piece of music we must consider the effects of an agreement not to play it on all music. We could create a McCarthy like witch hunt on all music and daft and less palatable decisions could become the norm under the guise of 'political correctness'. This might actually suit the purposes of those who want to go much further in considering racism and bans, I'm not offering an opinion on the rights or wrongs just saying we should be careful what we wish for.

Personally I dont think after following this thread that I would want to play it anyway (I never have, and was, like many here, completely ignorant of its background or links to the other pieces). My reasoning would be very simple and totally lacking in intellectual substance but why would I want to play any music that would upset let alone cause offence to someone else? I am more motivated by kindess and consideration than by intellectual reasoning.

Non Christians please dont take offence to me refferring to the Apostle Paul but he once said something to the effect that although something might be quite lawful and correct to do, if it causes offence to someone else then it actually becomes wrong.

Maybe we should just unite under the anti racism banner and leave it at that?

There are clearly those here who truly know what racism is like and I take William Langs and others advice completely. I do have a lot of ethnic minority friends and have worked at times in situations where as a white person I have been in the minority but I in no way try to assume anything but the smallest understanding of what its like to be in a minority situation with a different colour of skin. Because of that I cannot argue against those of you who agree with Doug Yeo I have to bow to your knowledge and experience (and being English doesent help either I know!).

So for myself (and I dont ask anyone to be influenced by me beause I know so little) I wont play Lassus but I do say to those persuing the stronger line be prepared to open Pandoras box as a result, Ed Solomn has a good point and if we go for one we may have to tackle all, it would only be fair!... Doug
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by DougHulme » Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:26 pm

Brad - I smiled too!... When you consider my post bear in mind that whilst I may chronologically be 60 - probably better to consider me 14 intellectually :D
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by CalgaryTbone » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:31 pm

Here's my take. I think that Fillmore was perhaps not a "bad" man by the standards of his time. I'm also not sure how many listeners would catch the racial slur in the title of "Lassus", or how many would care.

This is all however irrelevant - I would know! I'm a grown-ass man, working in 2020 (at least until the coronavirus). I should be sensitive to the fact that an entire race could possibly be offended by that piece. On top of that, recent events have made it clear to me that I should not be waiting to have someone of color tell me what is offensive and hurtful - I should be sensitive enough to circumstances to try to be proactive and avoid the hurtful action in the first place.

Likewise, the argument that somehow it's too late to make a change because we've been playing this music for so many years doesn't make sense to me either. Just as Fillmore was a product of his time so are we, and our times are changing. We can have long discussions on this forum concerning old vs. new instruments, or changes in recording devices and delivery methods over the last 50 years. Society has been changing too during that time, and we need to adapt. The same argument that allows us to put some of the words and actions of someone that lived 100 years ago into the context of the era, means that our actions should be judged by the context of our time.

I will miss "Lassus" a bit - I used to use it as a demo on kiddie shows, and have fond memories of playing it for my niece and nephews when they were babies/todlers. Always good for a laugh from a baby, and that's what we're all looking for in those situations. I can find something else to use for this purpose going forward, and really, how big an inconvenience is that? It's just the right thing to do.

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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by GBP » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:54 pm

8parktoollover wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:05 pm
No. The fact that Lassus is mote than 100 years old and there has never been a problem with it until now proves that it had lost most of its racist weight. People are just trying to restore it's racist weight so they can find more things to cancel.
Ask Your family if they Feel that way about Wagner or List.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by GBP » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:19 pm

I was talking to my Aunt Charlotte today. She is 96. She was telling me that she got her bachelors and masters degrees from Case Western University. She applied at Ohio State University for both degrees and was turned down because the university at that time did not take black students. I could here in her voice that this still hurts her. My Dad was one of the first black engineers hired by Boeing. Many of the other white engineers did not think much of him even though Boeing put him on all their big projects. My Dad tells a story where some engineers were questioning his knowledge on a particular system in one of the projects. He told them that since he was the one who designed the system, he had a pretty good idea of how it worked. The experiences with his colleagues in the early days frustrated him for his whole adult life. This idea that black people don’t care or will get over is not right. People who are discriminated against don’t ever get over it.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by yeodoug » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:36 am

Hello all,

Over the last week since I published my article, "Trombone Players: It's Time to Bury Henry Fillmore's 'Lassus Trombone'", I've followed the ensuing discussion on various fora including here on trombonechat.com. The article has been read more than 64,000 times on my blog and many other blogs and websites have reprinted it. I'm glad there is a vigorous conversation underway, even if at times that conversation has gotten a little ugly.

I have just published a followup article in which I offer a few more thoughts, answer a few questions (including several that have been discussed on trombonechat.com), and propose a path forward in light of what we know. If you're interested, you can read my new article here:

https://thelasttrombone.com/2020/07/06/ ... -trombone/

With thanks and my best wishes,

-Douglas Yeo
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Douglas Yeo
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by Burgerbob » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:48 am

:good:
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by ngrinder » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:49 am

Wow, thank you Mr Yeo for writing the article, and for chiming in here. I applaud you for bringing the issues with this piece to the table. Your follow-up addresses a lot of the views espoused on this thread.

I think GBP's latest post says it all.

"The experiences with his colleagues in the early days frustrated him for his whole adult life. This idea that black people don’t care or will get over is not right. People who are discriminated against don’t ever get over it."

Why on Earth do some of us seem to care more about playing Lassus than this? This is what is important about being a good neighbor, being a good American. Those of us who have not experienced racism first hand in this country have no idea what it was and is like - and I am counting myself among those who can only imagine. Why not err on the side of caution? On respect? Why is that so hard for some people to swallow? This goes beyond just playing Lassus, too.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by andym » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:52 am

I found the article compelling. The place I played Lassus and Shouting Liza were with our town’s Fourth of July band. I haven’t had a chance to play with them for the last several years but still get the email notices. So I went through the playlists and Lassus hasn’t been used for a decade but Shouting Liza was on the list a few years ago.

I shared Doug Yeo’s article with the band organizers and they agreed that these pieces will not be played in the future. I’m glad of that because seeing the original cover art and subtitles make it impossible for me to take part in the future. As an amateur, I can do that.

I appreciate learning about the history and felt that this was the action I can take. Now I will read the follow up.

And now I’ll see if we can add Nathaniel Davis’ pieces to the book.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by mrdeacon » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:28 am

Bravo to Doug for that follow up article. I think it's just as important as his original article. I suggest everyone read it!
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by GabrielRice » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:33 pm

A Haiku to Hopefully End this Discussion:

That song is racist?
I did not know! Now I do.
I'll play something else.
Gabriel Langfur Rice

Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Wellesley College

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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by BGuttman » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:16 pm

Thanks for the suggestions, Doug. I think they are as good as the Fillmore pieces in terms of simplicity and entertainment value.

My disagreement stems from the rejection of Minstrelsy. It's a part of our musical heritage and suffuses through late 19th and early 20th Century music. Too much very popular music would be purged from the repertoire. Including the State song of Kentucky. Do we need a rebirth of the genre? No. We might eve be able to "whitewash" some of it provided we can find a way to separate its past. Most people don't seem to know what the Darktown in "Darktown Strutters' Ball" is.

We should purge things intended to downgrade any ethnic or racial group. The use of the Confederate battle flag, Nazi Swastika flag, or statues erected in the late 19th Century honoring Confederate generals are all possible candidates. Renaming military bases honoring [sometimes incompetent] Confederate generals is appropriate -- we have plenty of honorable and heroic military leaders from other wars who deserve remembrance.

I'd bet that if Fillmore were writing today he would have given the Trombone Family different titles and probably used the subtitle "Characteristic".
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by mrpillow » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:40 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:16 pm
Do we need a rebirth of the genre? No. We might eve be able to "whitewash" some of it provided we can find a way to separate its past.
Are you advocating for whitewashing?
We should purge things intended to downgrade any ethnic or racial group.
Where does one draw the line on 'downgrading'? And what is meant by 'purge'?
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by GabrielRice » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:48 pm

My haiku didn't work.

Sigh.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by DDoghouse » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:17 pm

It worked for me Gabe! That's why I'm not posting!
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by GabrielRice » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:18 pm

Here, let me try again. I think it can really be this simple.
GabeLangfur wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:33 pm
A Haiku to Hopefully End this Discussion:

That song is racist?
I did not know! Now I do.
I'll play something else.
Gabriel Langfur Rice

Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Wellesley College

Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by Schlitz » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:23 pm

Could I suggest that we form an academic research committee for the next ITA and have a nice roundtable with qualified academics, and performing artists? Kinda like what ITA had with the Awards Committee. Look for Abby's post online. Could I suggest the editors of the Fillmore marches, like de Meij (Shoutin' Liza, Teddy), Robert E. Foster, Fillmore Edition editor for Carl Fischer (Lassus), and Loras Schissel (Lassus)? Anybody here really familiar with Schissel? I'd like to include people like Dr's Paul Droste, Demondrae Thurman, and add Jim Curnow. Unfortunately Dr John Boyd has passed. I know there's some others out there, so get cracking for inclusive color and gender diversity.

I'll point out again that this discussion, is dominated by the same handful, 6+ posts on one page sometimes. Breathe.

Dial down the moral superiority complex and try to have an academic discussion, without the wife, donations to the ACLU, because that's how you spent the holiday weekend, in the US.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by GabrielRice » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:17 am

Schlitz wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:23 pm
Could I suggest that we form an academic research committee for the next ITA and have a nice roundtable with qualified academics, and performing artists? Kinda like what ITA had with the Awards Committee. Look for Abby's post online. Could I suggest the editors of the Fillmore marches, like de Meij (Shoutin' Liza, Teddy), Robert E. Foster, Fillmore Edition editor for Carl Fischer (Lassus), and Loras Schissel (Lassus)? Anybody here really familiar with Schissel? I'd like to include people like Dr's Paul Droste, Demondrae Thurman, and add Jim Curnow. Unfortunately Dr John Boyd has passed. I know there's some others out there, so get cracking for inclusive color and gender diversity.

I'll point out again that this discussion, is dominated by the same handful, 6+ posts on one page sometimes. Breathe.

Dial down the moral superiority complex and try to have an academic discussion, without the wife, donations to the ACLU, because that's how you spent the holiday weekend, in the US.
In the name of all that's good in the world, why? Don't we have better things to talk about?

You know what, Schlitz, you're pissing me off. Your not so thinly veiled contempt for diversity and anti-racism efforts in the quote above are offensive. You insulted me AND Doug Yeo on the previous page by suggesting that neither of us would be good enough to play in Fillmore's band. Have you HEARD Doug play? He was in the Boston Symphony!!! And my qualifications are right there for you to see on my signature. I'm a top working professional in the busy and competitive musical community of New England, and a major university with a highly regarded music school trusts me to teach. I'm pretty good too.

Who are you? The only thing I see on your profile is that you're an old guy who likes to rant. In my experience - I'll be 51 tomorrow, so I'm not so young myself - old guys who like to rant aren't so good at listening and learning. I suggest you give it a try.

Moderators, please shut this down. The fact that we're still having this stupid argument says very bad things about our community.

A Haiku to Hopefully End this Discussion:

That song is racist?
I did not know! Now I do.
I'll play something else.
Gabriel Langfur Rice

Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Wellesley College

Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic
Vermont Symphony
Rodney Marsalis Philadelphia Big Brass
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by CalgaryTbone » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:07 am

GabeLangfur wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:17 am
Schlitz wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:23 pm
Could I suggest that we form an academic research committee for the next ITA and have a nice roundtable with qualified academics, and performing artists? Kinda like what ITA had with the Awards Committee. Look for Abby's post online. Could I suggest the editors of the Fillmore marches, like de Meij (Shoutin' Liza, Teddy), Robert E. Foster, Fillmore Edition editor for Carl Fischer (Lassus), and Loras Schissel (Lassus)? Anybody here really familiar with Schissel? I'd like to include people like Dr's Paul Droste, Demondrae Thurman, and add Jim Curnow. Unfortunately Dr John Boyd has passed. I know there's some others out there, so get cracking for inclusive color and gender diversity.

I'll point out again that this discussion, is dominated by the same handful, 6+ posts on one page sometimes. Breathe.

Dial down the moral superiority complex and try to have an academic discussion, without the wife, donations to the ACLU, because that's how you spent the holiday weekend, in the US.
In the name of all that's good in the world, why? Don't we have better things to talk about?

You know what, Schlitz, you're pissing me off. Your not so thinly veiled contempt for diversity and anti-racism efforts in the quote above are offensive. You insulted me AND Doug Yeo on the previous page by suggesting that neither of us would be good enough to play in Fillmore's band. Have you HEARD Doug play? He was in the Boston Symphony!!! And my qualifications are right there for you to see on my signature. I'm a top working professional in the busy and competitive musical community of New England, and a major university with a highly regarded music school trusts me to teach. I'm pretty good too.

Who are you? The only thing I see on your profile is that you're an old guy who likes to rant. In my experience - I'll be 51 tomorrow, so I'm not so young myself - old guys who like to rant aren't so good at listening and learning. I suggest you give it a try.

Moderators, please shut this down. The fact that we're still having this stupid argument says very bad things about our community.

A Haiku to Hopefully End this Discussion:

That song is racist?
I did not know! Now I do.
I'll play something else.
:good: :good: :good:
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by Schlitz » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:16 pm

“In the name of all that's good in the world, why? Don't we have better things to talk about?”.


I never said you were less than qualified for the positions you have now, or had. I’m looking for Fillmore subject matter experts. Those recognized as educators, performers, and editors. Where are your credentials on the subject? I’m not arguing that Doug Yeo isn’t a famous retired symphony musician. I’ve named a few of what we could have for a better conversation. I think a recognized musicologist, Sousa historian, for the Library of Congress is a natural to present the cataloged material cited. Yeah, source everything to academic peer reviewed standards. Presenting recycled arguments without proper sourcing, foundation, isn't a serious conversation.

The fact remains that between you, currently at 20, another one at 24, and the third with 10 in one day, sucked the air out of the conversation. Go ahead and look at the stats. Quite an accomplishment.

The moral superiority complex on display is similar to the Oberlin behavior regarding the the ongoing libel case, with a bakery. Where were you as an alum on the Title IX assaults at the conservatory, and racism issues going back to 2016? $30 million+ so far.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/21/ ... servatory/

We are not in the Kelvin Timeline.
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by Burgerbob » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:19 pm

Well, you don't seem to be contributing much, Schlitz. Do you have a point to make that is cogent to this conversation either?
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Re: TIme to ditch Lassus Trombone

Post by mrpillow » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:11 am

Any further garbage about how only recognized academics are capable of having useful insights or making ethical decisions will be deleted.
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