TromboneChat

Im looking for a large tenor mouthpeice that I can double on as a Bass player, and I currently use a bach 1 1/2G in my tenor. I just wnt to find something right inbetween a 4G and a 1 1/2G. I bought a Bach 3G from a local store, and I found immediately that the Rim is unbelievably sharper than my 1 1/2G, 4G and 5G. is this standard? I have a suspicion it could be a factory problem but just want to check and see if people have found the same. Its super visually noticable, and its by far the sharpest rim Ive every seen bar, almost baroque style.

Let me know!

Arthur

Bach uses the same outside blank for a range of mouthpieces. So the rim of, for example, a 4G is going to be smaller than a 6.5AL. I think the 2G and lower are the bass trombone blank but 3G is a tenor blank. I know the big problem I had with the 1G was that the rim was too sharp for me.

I had a 3G that was like that once, completely different from any other Bach rim. It would have been made in the 1970's.
I didn't like the other Bach rims either.

The Bach outside shape from 5G to 1G is supposed to be the same...but being Bach, it varies, not just with age but batch to batch .
Bach rims vary greatly in the same way.... if you own a Bach mouthpiece you have a one-of-a-kind item. The 3G has been subject to wide variation, particularly cup depth... there seem to be two versions, deep and shallow, whilst the rims are quite flat to very flat with inner and outer edges going from sharp to very, very sharp.
Your's is not defective, merely typically un-typical .

Chris

Yup, I've played a modern piece that was similarly barely-playable.

Everyone is talking about Bach. Why not take your bass rim you like and normally play on, and use that size with the Doug Eliott system? Changing rim sizes just add another variable

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:05 pm Everyone is talking about Bach. Why not take your bass rim you like and normally play on, and use that size with the Doug Eliott system? Changing rim sizes just add another variable

Doug makes great mouthpieces, but they do cost a chunk of change. Those of us on beer budgets will buy lower priced spreads at times. A whole Bach mouthpiece costs the same as a Doug Elliott shank.

Hmmm... well my first thought is that a Bach 1 1/2G is NOT a mouthpiece for tenor. The Cup is really just too big. Sure some people do it, but normally a 4 or 5G is right around where most want to be.

However you may not be like most. Is the 4G feeling too "small" for your lips? I play around a 4G size, and a 1 1/4G size for Bass.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:28 pm Hmmm... well my first thought is that a Bach 1 1/2G is NOT a mouthpiece for tenor. The Cup is really just too big. Sure some people do it, but normally a 4 or 5G is right around where most want to be.

However you may not be like most. Is the 4G feeling too "small" for your lips? I play around a 4G size, and a 1 1/4G size for Bass.

Rim diameter does not have to = cup depth or shape. Doug's mouthpieces have now been around for what, nearly 30 years? And Denis Wick was experimenting with some of these ideas earlier than that. We still have some really old school fallacies going around that stem from old school mouthpiece design. A 1.5G is not a great tenor piece, but a DE 106 or 107 rim can be a great cup diameter for tenor.

I agree that a Bach mouthpiece is cheap. But since they aren't consistent, and you might have to do a LOT of searching before you find a halfway decent compromise. Which costs money and wastes time. Or you could just get something that is a perfect all rounder rim size for all your playing, with two cups and two shanks. The money spent is not so much compared to the frustration and time wasted on experiments.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:16 pm A whole Bach mouthpiece costs the same as a Doug Elliott shank.

Yeah, but you could buy 6 or 10 Bachs and not get exactly what you want. Doug will dial you in.

It takes longer to make one of my shanks than a whole Bach mouthpiece. Quite a bit longer.

The reason we are (some of us) are talking about Bach, and specifically the 3G, is that was the OP's question...it's what we're supposed to do.

Chris

OP, FWIW, I just pulled out the Bach 3G that I’d played regularly quite a few years ago and compared it to the 1 1/2G that I’ve played daily throughout the past 3 months.

My 3G sounds the same as OP’s - the rim is quite sharp and much thinner than I remembered. Given the equipment that I’ve gravitated towards, I’m almost amazed that I’d used 3G comfortably for so long!

I no longer have my CNC generation Bach 3G... thankfully sold it.

I have a couple Mt. Vernon ones. I measured them- calibrated my calipers off of one of Doug's rims- got a "datum" for depth that way. The rims come in quite a bit narrower than is normally quoted for a 3G sized piece- about 1.025," measured at the approximate depth that Doug's rims are sized at. The measurement confirmed what I feel on my face when I play them- they are about the size of a modern 4G, perhaps a bit smaller.

The modern 3G is a disgusting mouthpiece- they sound great in a Wenger soundproof practice room, and nowhere else. I wouldn't characterize it as "unplayable," but then again, I have low standards. I simply can't imagine a setting where that mouthpiece would help. It might be a good euph mouthpiece? IDK, I don't play euph.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:28 pm Hmmm... well my first thought is that a Bach 1 1/2G is NOT a mouthpiece for tenor. The Cup is really just too big. Sure some people do it, but normally a 4 or 5G is right around where most want to be.

However you may not be like most. Is the 4G feeling too "small" for your lips? I play around a 4G size, and a 1 1/4G size for Bass.

Coming from a GB 1 1/8 Ive found that I can more successfully pull out the 1 1/2G for a tenor gig on the day, the 4G feels too uncomfortable without a few days. Im looking for something inbetween to get just that bit more focused sound with higher partials in each note

Lately, I have been using a Yamaha 55L with excellent results for both my Yamaha large-bore tenor and single-trigger bass. The rim size is a tiny bit wider than a Bach 3G, but - for me, more importantly - it has a more open blow which, I think sounds better and plays better on those two horns, specifically. To my knowledge, it is the smallest mpc I can play on my bass where I still have the sound of a bass and the largest mpc I can play on a tenor that works.

I have this current quirky notion that perhaps mouthpieces a factory makes for it's own horns are a good bet, rather than mouthpieces from some other factory. IOW's, Bach mpcs for Bach horns, etc. It's like, maybe the factory has it figured out? Probably not...

And yet, some top professional players have endorsed specific makes & models of horns. And those factories have designed specific signature mouthpieces to suit that player & horn. It might just be branding for benefit, though.

On a practical level, most of us don't have the luxury or status to visit a factory to have a mouthpiece designed specifically for how we play what we play. So there could be a good argument for a visit or some other form of contact to an approachable mouthpiece-designer/fitter/maker like Doug Elliot for a match-up.

Can anyone describe the 2G rim compared to the 1,1/2G and 4G? At the moment the two mouthpieces I am considering are a 2G and the Yamaha 55

JohnBass wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:49 am Can anyone describe the 2G rim compared to the 1,1/2G and 4G? At the moment the two mouthpieces I am considering are a 2G and the Yamaha 55

Again, as many rims as there are 2Gs...but in general, there are round rim examples...rounder than a 1 1/2G, and there are examples where the inner rim is well defined and the high point is toward the inside of the rim whilst the outer rim slopes away a little.. Two basic types.
I've worked with tenor players using a 2G, but that was over 20 years ago.

Chris

Thanks Chris!

I'm looking at four Bach mouthpieces right now....a 1.5G, 2G, 3G and 4G. All of these appear to be 1990's vintage. Some of the things that have been stated in this thread seem to be consistent with these mouthpieces:

*The 3G and 4G look to be cut from the same blank. They have the same length and exactly the same width and contour of rim.
*My 3G does NOT have a sharper bite on the rim compared to the 4G.
*The 1.5G and 2G are slightly longer (only about 1/10 inch) and have the same rim width and contour, which is more narrow than the 3G and 4G.
*When I play on the 4G and switch to the 3G, the 3G rim (although it is identical) does feel a little sharper. My theory is that certain shapes of rims can potentially have a different feel at the bite when the diameter changes.

For decades, trombonists have either been pro-Bach or anti-Bach when it comes to their mouthpieces. Most of the love or hate relationship has to do with the rim. The rims have a round contour with a high point just outside of the bite. If it works for you....great! If it does not work for you, try something else.

The Yamaha and Schilke rims are a little flatter and have a different feel. Again, people either love or hate this shape of rim as well. Doug Elliott's rims are similar to the Schilke design, but he has put his own spin on it. I love the feel of the Doug Elliott rims. I think he has done the research and refinement to get many things balanced on them. For me, his rims provide comfort, flexibility, precise articulations and endurance.....a great balance of many things.

For JohnBass, my recommendation is to determine the exact size you need....it sounds like you might still be searching. It might be a good idea to find/borrow a couple other Bach 3Gs to see if yours is an anomaly. Once you have determined the size (width and depth) of mouthpiece you are looking for, consider looking at other brands that have a different rim contour. If you go in the direction of a custom design like Doug Elliott, make sure you know EXACTLY what size works for you. After all, Doug Elliott mouthpieces are expensive......but if you get the multiple sizes right, it is worth every penney!

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:57 am

JohnBass wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:49 am Can anyone describe the 2G rim compared to the 1,1/2G and 4G? At the moment the two mouthpieces I am considering are a 2G and the Yamaha 55

Again, as many rims as there are 2Gs...but in general, there are round rim examples...rounder than a 1 1/2G, and there are examples where the inner rim is well defined and the high point is toward the inside of the rim whilst the outer rim slopes away a little.. Two basic types.
I've worked with tenor players using a 2G, but that was over 20 years ago.

Chris

A big part of that might be Joe Alessi's line(s) of mouthpieces coming out. Roughly 2G rim sized, but definitely tenor trombone mouthpieces. They would work a lot better for tenor players previously using 2Gs.

OP should maybe check these out if they're looking for a new tenor mouthpiece.

I have a 3G Mt Vernon that someone converted to a small shank. It works ok. It's supposedly similar in specs to a modern 4G? Definitely isn't my favorite mouthpiece. I like my 3 and 4 better than the 3G/ 4Gs.

As a tenor player, I found a 2G was the perfect bass rim size for my doubling needs coming from a 4G esque DE rim. Mostly because I didn't have time to truly learn bass so was able to play the bass as a big tenor. The reverse, or one of the Alessi-style big rim/shallow cup pieces might work for your needs.

Most seem to be unaware, but as originally designed odd numbered Bach mouthpieces were flatter rims and even numbers were rounder rims. Hence the Bach 3, 5, 7 are flatter sharper rims, the 2, 4, 6 are rounder.

modelerdc wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:31 pm Most seem to be unaware, but as originally designed odd numbered Bach mouthpieces were flatter rims and even numbers were rounder rims. Hence the Bach 3, 5, 7 are flatter sharper rims, the 2, 4, 6 are rounder.

Is this true? I've never seen this before. I do have a New York 7 that is quite flat, and a New York 6 that seemed a bit rounder. My Corp 4 is quite flat, though.

Yes, to my understanding true, exam a lot of Bach mouthpieces including ones for different instruments confirms this general pattern. There are exceptions to the Bach pattern. Beversdorff, Clarke, 24AW, cushions rims, but that's the pattern for the series as a whole. A odd numbered Trumpet mouthpiece, such as a 1, 3, 5 or 7 will haver the flatter rim, and 2,4, 6 rounder, and the flatter ones are more popular, and hence more common, but Bach has made the others. We see a lot of trombone 7 or 7C, but not many 6 or 8. The 6 1/2 AL is the Clarke mouthpiece and has a rim cup and backbore like none of the others in the original Bach designs. The Bach 5GS came along later.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:06 pmRim diameter does not have to = cup depth or shape. Doug's mouthpieces have now been around for what, nearly 30 years? And Denis Wick was experimenting with some of these ideas earlier than that. We still have some really old school fallacies going around that stem from old school mouthpiece design. A 1.5G is not a great tenor piece, but a DE 106 or 107 rim can be a great cup diameter for tenor.

Well I was mainly responding to the threadstarter. if they said that the 4G really felt too small, then I was definitely going to suggest alternatives, especially Doug. There are also other makers who have divorced the idea of wide cups needing to be toilet bowls.

One of these days I need to work with Doug to make an alto mouthpiece that works for me and my Bach 39.