Idea: How to practice to reduce embouchure movements.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:33 am

This thread http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,101348.msg1205059.html#msg1205059 about embouchure movements, inspired me to make a movie to show my embouchure. Movements in the embouchure is something I also struggle with even though they are not that big they make my playing suffer.

..so

I decided to make a video of a study I'm doing.

By the way Doug or Dave W, if you read this maybe you could categorize my embouchure from the video.

What type am I?

Anyone is welcome to guess until Doug or Dave W tells

...now to prime subject...

I created a study as a help to improve my legato playing and flow and breathing. I did this as a result of the comments I've got on my previous recordings on my sloppy legato playing.

When I read the thread about embouchure movements and how to reduce them I picked up my study and decided to make a video of it because I think it can also be used to help reduce embouchure movements such as the ones described in the thread.

It includes thoughts of using: no tongue as well as using glissando.

I hope the study can help others who struggle with their legato playing and have a need to decrease embouchure movements, or at least the way of thinking could give ideas to develop your own study to help with this, because this is not really a new thing, Schlossberg for example, is full of similar studies. This means the idea to play things like this is very old.

Below is my comments - how I think when I play this study.

What I think about:
- Use no tongue at all, or only use it at the first note in the phrase.
- Play as long phrases as possible with a constant air flow.
- Use the air as effective as possible, but take breaths where necessary.
- Make ALL notes speak with a clear sound.
- When partials are crossed keep the flow constant and blow through the partials.
- When there is no partial break, a glissando is preferable, and also for the half steps.
- Check the embouchure with a mirror.
- When a partial is crossed, do it with a minimum of moves in the embouchure, and no movement what so ever for the half steps.

This is the study. The first is easier to begin with. It is enough to get the idea, the second is more of a challenge.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxmcmVlZG93bmxvYWRhcmVhfGd4OjZhNmJiOTJiNTc5NDNjMDU

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxmcmVlZG93bmxvYWRhcmVhfGd4OjFiYzJhZDI3MTE2MDI3ZDc

I'm using factitious notes on the valve for the lowest notes in the three last sequences (Db-C-Db, C-B-C, B-A#-B ). The factitious notes are T1 for Db, T2 for C T3 for B and T4 for A#.

I don't know how to embed a video in flash? so here is the direct link to the video I made on YouTube

https://youtu.be/GeBDGlpxS0g

All are welcome to comment the clip and the study of course. Do you think it could be of help?

/Tom

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:13 pm

Is that an Edwards? Looks like a Bach trigger...

Definitely doesnt look like a Kanstul!

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:27 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Yesterday at 12:13 PMIs that an Edwards? Looks like a Bach trigger...

Definitely doesnt look like a Kanstul!

Yes! Sharp eyes

You are correct Harrison, this is my Edwards T-350 with a Thayer.

/Tom

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:06 pm

Love it. Sounding good!

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:33 pm

You are a Very High Placement, or Reinhardt's IIIA. The majority of brass players are that type.

I would have an issue with how much you're changing your jaw opening between octaves. That's almost the same thing as excess motion and becomes "chewing" on faster intervals.

The mouth cavity needs to increase for lower notes, but try to do it with tongue position, without involving the jaw opening.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:33 pm

Well, I'm wrong then, I diagnosed him as medium high, based on how much room between mouthpiece and nose, and how he seemed to sometimes pull down ascending. Hee, hee! And that's why I would never tell anybody what I think.

I did notice he drops his jaw a long way in the lower range so I should get partial credit.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:54 pm

The Very High (IIIA) and Medium High (IIIB) embouchures are functionally very different, it's a lot more than appearance.

ttf_slide advantage · Post by **ttf_slide advantage** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:02 pm

Long tones in all registers

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:35 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Yesterday at 04:33 PMYou are a Very High Placement, or Reinhardt's IIIA. The majority of brass players are that type.

I would have an issue with how much you're changing your jaw opening between octaves. That's almost the same thing as excess motion and becomes "chewing" on faster intervals.

The mouth cavity needs to increase for lower notes, but try to do it with tongue position, without involving the jaw opening.

Thanks Doug! Will experiment with your advice.

/Tom

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:36 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Yesterday at 02:06 PMLove it. Sounding good!

Thanks Harrison. The Edwards is also a good horn. Hard to choose from so many good ones

/Tom

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:42 am

Quote from: slide advantage on Yesterday at 09:02 PMLong tones in all registers

Lol

well this advice can anybody give to ANYBODY here. It is an advice for the newbee as well as for Josef Alessi. Everybody needs it, you too.

A good advice

but my sessions are full of long tones allready, so just play more long tones does not solve any issues with ones playing. It is how they are played that is important. With a video things get more obvious to show how long tones should be practiced and what to think about.

By the way have you tried this study? If you did, do you think it could help the situation it is aimed to help? Could it be better? Helping advice are welcome as long as they are to help me, or anybody else.

I think this forum is a little sparse with demos.

/Tom

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:44 am

I have not noticed your jaw motion before, funny how your jaw fast lowers and then go up again when you are still descending. Think about it, listen for the sound.

It is not the same kind of "embouchure movements" as "JBTrombone" though. He move his jaw i symphaty with the tongue. His chewing is just in the attack.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:16 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Today at 02:44 AMI have not noticed your jaw motion before, funny how your jaw fast lowers and then go up again when you are still descending. Think about it, listen for the sound.

It is not the same kind of "embouchure movements" as "JBTrombone" though. He move his jaw i symphaty with the tongue. His chewing is just in the attack.

Thanks Sven! I will check the video again and look out for jaw movements, and listen for the sound. I will see if I can reduce the dropping of the jaw, see if I can do it with the tongue instead. This is what I like with this forum, when it is as it's best. This gives me inspiration and something to work at

I've been totally focused about mouth corners while doing the exercise and have not thought about whether there could be other motions that are causing my problems and Doug is right that I have an issue with fast leaps, especially large intervals.

Sven, it was awhile ago you checked my embouchure. Now days we often sit side by side and naturally you are then too occupied with your own playing and can not pay too much attention to what I'm doing, especially if it is working good enough for what I'm doing and since we often meet in big band situations there are at least a third trombone player in between as well as several trombone bells and in the other situations we meet it is not that often I have to play something this revealing as a solo, while you and everybody else is looking for weeknesses in my playing

. Your advice is taken! Will start working at this right away. Thanks to Doug and you for pointing ut this problem.

/Tom

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:11 am

Sometimes it's not obvious to accept the idea of a "problem" when things are working and sounding good, but the stability of minimal motion is good and helps everything in the long run.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:01 pm

Today I have had some success in reducing the problem with my dropping jaw motion. I did another video to show this. This study includes attacks and big leaps.

The dropping of the jaw has now changed to be a forward motion instead.

This is the study
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxmcmVlZG93bmxvYWRhcmVhfGd4OjYxY2IxZjBjZTlhOTFlYTE

...and this is the video.
https://youtu.be/4-N_sktSMao

/Tom

ttf_slide advantage · Post by **ttf_slide advantage** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:19 pm

Quote from: watermailonman on Jul 30, 2017, 12:42AM

A good advice

but my sessions are full of long tones already, so just play more long tones does not solve any issues with ones playing.

/Tom

I never implied just play more long tones.

It worked/works for me. I used to shift my embouchure around too much between registers, and I worked on it by playing long tones a lot to strengthen the muscles. It worked for me.

You asked.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:34 pm

Quote from: slide advantage on Jul 30, 2017, 05:19PMI never implied just play more long tones.

It worked/works for me. I used to shift my embouchure around too much between registers, and I worked on it by playing long tones a lot to strengthen the muscles. It worked for me.

You asked.

Yes long tones are good for strengthen muscles, practicing sound, breathing techniques and a lot of other things. I'm sure it is a good thing. All teachers I've had says long tones are good so they probably are.

I believe all critics should be constructive. I'm always scanning messages for Who?, What?, When?, Where?, How? and Why? If several of these answers can be found in a comment or a message it is easier to pick up.

Now I understand better where you are coming from because you said "I worked on it by playing long tones a lot to strengthen the muscles", it makes sense to me.

Thank you

/Tom

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:36 pm

Wide intervals are not a good way to work on reducing motion because you immediately revert to what you know, which is moving your jaw a lot. Instead, work on 3rds and 4ths with absolutely no motion. As you get lower in the staff and then into the trigger range, you'll want to move your jaw, but don't tolerate ANY motion.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:24 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jul 30, 2017, 10:36PMWide intervals are not a good way to work on reducing motion because you immediately revert to what you know, which is moving your jaw a lot. Instead, work on 3rds and 4ths with absolutely no motion. As you get lower in the staff and then into the trigger range, you'll want to move your jaw, but don't tolerate ANY motion.

Okay I think I see the point. Do small steps first with absolutely NO motions in the jaw and gradually increase the leaps but still NO movement of the jaw what so ever. Practice does not make perfect. Practice make permanent. I see the point, because if one succeds it speed's up the time to make the jumps. I guess att some point there will be motions anyhow in my jaw but if I practice with this as a goal I've done the best I can to elliminate them.

/Tom

ttf_Andrew Meronek · Post by **ttf_Andrew Meronek** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:13 am

It sounds like your low register doesn't quite have the same beautiful, brilliant sound that your upper register has. Is that the mic?

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:42 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Jul 30, 2017, 05:01PM
...and this is the video.

https://youtu.be/4-N_sktSMao

/Tom

As a non F valve user, I'm curious as to why you use the valve (in the tenor range) as second nature, but completely ignore the Bb in 5th.

I don't mean this question in a disparaging way, just curious.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:17 am

Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Yesterday at 04:13 AMIt sounds like your low register doesn't quite have the same beautiful, brilliant sound that your upper register has. Is that the mic?

Maybe? I have no clue about my REAL sound. I have never heard it. Any mic lies and this is a small mic on the camera. It could be I play the downbeats (the scale) louder and the high notes softer. The dynamics is mf-f-mf-f and so on. Maybe the mic does not like forte or it does not pick up low notes as good as high notes, or my low notes sounds like this, or ALL of that probably.

What kind of answer was that really? Well I don't like excuses so it is what it is. I can't tell actually

/Tom

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:37 am

Quote from: Pre59 on Yesterday at 04:42 AMAs a non F valve user, I'm curious as to why you use the valve (in the tenor range) as second nature, but completely ignore the Bb in 5th.

I don't mean this question in a disparaging way, just curious.

Are you now referring to my latest video with the intervals? You mean why I did not play Bb on fifth since it would be closer when other notes were out on the slide.

The answer is: I could have done that, but didn't because it did not cross my mind. I did not think it would make much difference to the result.

I use alternate positions a lot but the Bb on fifth is when I think of it not as common for me as many others. D on forth and the F above on forth and G and A on forth, F#, E and C# on fifth, high Bb on third. All those are more often used (by me) than that Bb on fifth you are asking about, or the A on sixth for example. I think I only use the Bb on 5:th and the A on 6:th if I absolutely have to.

I guess I need to think about that and maybe start incorporating more of it in my everyday playing. "Learn your alternate positions" is something I have heard the best professionals say.

Thank you!

/Tom

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:44 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Yesterday at 05:37 AMAre you now referring to my latest video with the intervals? You mean why I did not play Bb on fifth since it would be closer when other notes were out on the slide.

The answer is: I could have done that, but didn't because it did not cross my mind. I did not think it would make much difference to the result.

I use alternate positions a lot but the Bb on fifth is when I think of it not as common for me as many others. D on forth and the F above on forth and G and A on forth, F#, E and C# on fifth, high Bb on third. All those are more often used (by methan that Bb on fifth you are asking about, or the A on sixth for example. I think I only use the Bb on 5:th and the A on 6:th if I absolutrly have to.

I guess I need to think about that, maybe start incorporating them more in my everyday playing.

Thank you!

/Tom

Sometimes I think the F-trigger affords too many alternates and it becomes too confusing. For my amateur purposes right now, I keep it simplified and only use the more common (for me) F-trigger alternates, concentrating instead on the main slide alternates.

Of course, then there is the play it this way with a trigger and this way with a straight horn thing that can also get confusing to me.

...Geezer

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:46 am

I'm confused. It looked and sounded like your first note was middle Bb, so it would be perfectly normal to play it in first instead of 5th. What am I missing?

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:21 am

Quote from: ddickerson on Yesterday at 05:46 AMI'm confused. It looked and sounded like your first note was middle Bb, so it would be perfectly normal to play it in first instead of 5th. What am I missing?

I think he meant that when I played a low F# for example and the slide was in fifth position why then not remain there for the Bb. I played the Bb on first every time even though I could have simplified it sometimes.

/Tom

ttf_ddickerson · Post by **ttf_ddickerson** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:29 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Yesterday at 06:21 AMI think he meant that when I played a low F# for example and the slide was in fifth position why then not remain there for the Bb. I played the Bb on first every time even though I could have simplified it sometimes.

/Tom

I'm slow. I see now. Thanks!

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:41 am

Quote from: ddickerson on Yesterday at 06:29 AMI'm slow. I see now. Thanks!

Lol. I'm slow as well. I thought he meant a low Bb out in T5. I just picked up my horn and tried. It doesn't exist in T5. I'm doing well if I can remember to hit it in Tb3!

...Geezer

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:29 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Yesterday at 05:37 AMAre you now referring to my latest video with the intervals? You mean why I did not play Bb on fifth since it would be closer when other notes were out on the slide.

I guess I need to think about that and maybe start incorporating more of it in my everyday playing. "Learn your alternate positions" is something I have heard the best professionals say.

Thank you!

/Tom

Yes, and In this instance, with so many Bb's in the same octave, and most of the other positions becoming longer as you descend, it's more efficient to use the 5th. But many better players (than me) use "prime" positions come what may, and it seems to fly in the face of logic not to use closer positions, not just for speed but for a smoother, easier legato.

There can be a slight difference in tone, but as an an example, only the same as would be found on any stringed instrument when using efficient fingerings, and IMO this is just a part of the character of an instrument.

Tom, your interval exercise is a perfect way to get into using some "alts", change the keys as well.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:06 am

Quote from: Pre59 on Yesterday at 08:29 AMYes, and In this instance, with so many Bb's in the same octave, and most of the other positions becoming longer as you descend, it's more efficient to use the 5th. But many better players (than me) use "prime" positions come what may, and it seems to fly in the face of logic not to use closer positions, not just for speed but for a smoother, easier legato.

There can be a slight difference in tone, but as an an example, only the same as would be found on any stringed instrument when using efficient fingerings, and IMO this is just a part of the character of an instrument.

Tom, your interval exercise is a perfect way to get into using some "alts", change the keys as well.

For all who wants to do an exercise like this there are several found in The Arban book. They are in all different keys so you can practice your reading. Personally I don't like to read studies like these. Notes are not necessary, it is just a pattern.

I guess I use prime positions when I can, and alternate positions when there is something to gain. Not in this case because this is not very fast.

/Tom

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:50 am

Im no good to see embouchure and even less to see what is going on. But I could see the jaw drop and it was quite big. How is it going with practice Tom? I dont have any advice because I dont have a clue, but many others like Doug is experts on all this things. What happens if you just keep the jaw in same position all over the register?

Anyway I think it sounded good! Its not an easy etude to play, I tried a little bit. The clue is to have the same sound all over the register. Should it always be without any tongue? Maybe it can help to add a little bit legato tongue?

Leif

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:08 am

Quote from: savio on Yesterday at 10:50 AMIm no good to see embouchure and even less to see what is going on. But I could see the jaw drop and it was quite big. How is it going with practice Tom? I dont have any advice because I dont have a clue, but many others like Doug is experts on all this things. What happens if you just keep the jaw in same position all over the register?

Anyway I think it sounded good! Its not an easy etude to play, I tried a little bit. The clue is to have the same sound all over the register. Should it always be without any tongue? Maybe it can help to add a little bit legato tongue?

Leif

Hello Leif!

You are referring to the first video-clip I guess? I do the study to practice my flow and to have a constant sound and then I think glissando can help and to blow through the partial breaks. I'm not bound to make it sound like a nice legato. The next step would be to add a very soft legato tongue where appropriate to make the difference, but still blow constantly, not to change anything else. I have not done that part yet. If you read the comments I made about how I think when I play the study I guess it becomes more clear.

The second video-clip was done in an eye of a moment just to see if I could reduce the jaw-dropping, and I could do that, so I don't have to do it as much as I did in the first video, but the motion was then changed to be a forward motion instead. Have to work on that now. This second clip could also be done legato of course, that would be even more of a challenge.

And how do I do on the practice thing? I try to practice in the evenings. I have added this study to my repertoire as well as the other I recorded yesterday. I will do a simpler variant of that one with thirds and fourths as Doug suggested. We will see what happens. The jaw-dropping is a problem that I was not awere of. I have felt and have seen that I have motions, but have thought it was still the mouth-corners that was my biggest problem. They once were, because I'm coming from a smile-embouchure and have worked a lot on my mouth-corners. Most of the smile is now gone, but there are still some motions in the corners. So for practice? I have both the mouth-corner problem and the jaw-dropping problem to work at

I'm glad you gave it a try. The study is probably easier to relate to once you've tried it. Thank you for doing that and for the input

/Tom

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:38 am

I thought I should update everyone about how practise is doing. I have made a study that I'm doing to help me with the "jaw-dropping-problem". I have played that study the whole week in combination with the first study in the thread and I'm happy to say that this might be the biggest discovery for me since the beginning of the 90-ies. I think I'm getting close to a breakthrough with this.

I will do a video in a couple of months, because it needs some serious practice. What I have felt is I need to go about "half-way" from my lowest jaw-position to my highest jaw-position. The benefits are several to notice. My higher register gets a deeper sound and my valve-register gets a more "edgy" sound. The biggest challange is in the lower register, because it feels as the change affects my technique more there, but today I noticed that if I use less pressure down there and instead focus on centering the aparture more the sound returns. I have to use absolutely non pressure to get the factitious notes to a working sound, and to put more lips in the mouthpiece with very firm corners.

I think It will take some months at least to be able to play like this without thinking hard about it, but the result after this week is already promising

/Tom

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:17 am

As I said before, in the first video you lower your jaw for the attacments C and B, after that your jaw comes up for some tones until you get lower and use the attachment again.
Listening to the sound, you get a more hollow sound with the lowered jaw. Your highest tones are played with a raised jaw? A bit pinched.

The second video moving the jaw forward (very much, why? because you are think about what the jaw is doing) The low Bb is still a lowered jaw.

The much discoussed "jaw dropping" that has been going on for ages, much long before the TTF, I remember we hade som talk about "jaw dropping" with Rich Mathison and Kay Winding in the 60th. There have allways been different vieuwpoints about it. The jaw dropping is something that happens most basstrombonists around pedal G when playing very loud, for some it ocurs even on higher tones.
In the normal tenor range there the are not very many loud pedal G:s.

Still there are some movemnts in the jaw for most players, sometimes it is very hard to se how the jaw is moving, there are some ways to see though.

It is possible to find some Youtube clips from the most famous basstrombone players there is today if you want to study the "jaw drop" somtimes you can see it but the player denies it, but checking with fingers on the nose bone and jaw bone is proving.

As there are changes in your sound when you lower or raise your jaw, I would suggest that you concetrate on your sound more. I know very well that is agaist the Rainhardt ide, but that is my idea. Whe you are playing music the thought about the jaw is not as important as the thought of the sound.

So, yes your jaw movents is something that proves that something can be checked up on.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:53 am

There is nothing about concentrating on sound that is against the Reinhardt approach. That's a common misconception. It's all about the sound - the only difference is being more aware of the things that affect it, so you're not randomly hoping that something will improve just because you're thinking about sound. Awareness gives you something real to practice and get better, so then you can forget about and just play.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:00 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Yesterday at 04:17 AMAs I said before, in the first video you lower your jaw for the attacments C and B, after that your jaw comes up for some tones until you get lower and use the attachment again.
Listening to the sound, you get a more hollow sound with the lowered jaw. Your highest tones are played with a raised jaw? A bit pinched.

Exactly. You are absolutely right about your description about when and how my jaw raises and lowers.

While working on this I notice a change of sound in my higher register. I think this is because I try to even out things and therefore the jaw now is a bit lower there. The sound is a little deeper which might be an improvement. We will see.

QuoteThe second video moving the jaw forward (very much, why? because you are think about what the jaw is doing) The low Bb is still a lowered jaw.

Maybe, but maybe not as much as before? I could feel the change. Less drop but instead a large forward movement. I could feel that motion. It is interesting to be able to do things in different ways and still make it work. Hope I will find the best way and to make that work in a short time soon. Hopefully

QuoteThe much discoussed "jaw dropping" that has been going on for ages, much long before the TTF, I remember we hade som talk about "jaw dropping" with Rich Mathison and Kay Winding in the 60th. There have allways been different vieuwpoints about it. The jaw dropping is something that happens most basstrombonists around pedal G when playing very loud, for some it ocurs even on higher tones.
In the normal tenor range there the are not very many loud pedal G:s.

Still there are some movemnts in the jaw for most players, sometimes it is very hard to se how the jaw is moving, there are some ways to see though.

It is possible to find some Youtube clips from the most famous basstrombone players there is today if you want to study the "jaw drop" somtimes you can see it but the player denies it, but checking with fingers on the nose bone and jaw bone is proving.

As there are changes in your sound when you lower or raise your jaw, I would suggest that you concetrate on your sound more. I know very well that is agaist the Rainhardt ide, but that is my idea. Whe you are playing music the thought about the jaw is not as important as the thought of the sound.
Yes, to play music and listen for the sound could solve things, but I think I will concentrate on the studies for a while. I play with a mirror within intervals of a fourth, but still from the high end to the low end each day. I think I rarely play things as demanding as what I did in the videos really. This means the problem is not that big in my normal playing. It does not hold me back much because either I'm mostly playing in the high register or I'm playing in the low register. No performance have ever demanded things as "jumpy" as in my second video. I think I must push myself forward and play more challenging stuff that goes through the whole register, but I don't think much of the music I OWN is that difficult. Not much jumps in easy musical stuff. I think I will use some Swedish folk songs I know from heart and play them over the whole register as a complement. It might make me concentrate more on the sound to playing real music and still practise this thing.

Quote
So, yes your jaw movents is something that proves that something can be checked up on.

Yes, I'm glad I posted the video's here.

/Tom

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:09 am

Am I the only one that sees a distinct embouchure change when Tom ascends in the first video? It happens right at the

switch between the first and second octave. If I were to use words to describe what I *think* I'm seeing, I'd say maybe it looks like what I think Sabutin describes as shifts. But to me, it seems very forced, almost as if Tom's trying to use a smile embouchure to ascend. The chops reset as he descends for the next pattern and then there's that shift again about half way up.

--Andy in OKC

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:17 am

Quote from: afugate on Yesterday at 06:09 AMAm I the only one that sees a distinct embouchure change when Tom ascends in the first video? It happens right at the

switch between the first and second octave. If I were to use words to describe what I *think* I'm seeing, I'd say maybe it looks like what I think Sabutin describes as shifts. But to me, it seems very forced, almost as if Tom's trying to use a smile embouchure to ascend. The chops reset as he descends for the next pattern and then there's that shift again about half way up.

--Andy in OKC

Thank's. Sam and anybody who want to help are welcome.

/Tom

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:26 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Yesterday at 04:53 AMThere is nothing about concentrating on sound that is against the Reinhardt approach. That's a common misconception. It's all about the sound - the only difference is being more aware of the things that affect it, so you're not randomly hoping that something will improve just because you're thinking about sound. Awareness gives you something real to practice and get better, so then you can forget about and just play.

I think Sven is saying it is MORE important to focus on the sound than on the jaw. For me I draw to conclusion that according to Sven a lowered jaw is okay as long as everything sounds good and can be played with good result, and I also think he is referring to loud notes below pedal G.

I'm not updated on Reinhardt but I could then believe a jaw that is still, is more important. So even if sound is good someone should do a change in ones technique if needed so the jaw is still in all registers.

Well this is how I interpret the discussion. I think there is not much difference.

/Tom

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:32 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Yesterday at 06:26 AMI think Sven is saying it is MORE important to focus on the sound than on the jaw. I think he means that THIS is the difference on how to look at it. For me I draw to conclusion that according to Sven a lowered jaw is okay as long as everything is working with a good result,as long as the sound is good. I think he is also talking about notes below pedal G.

I'm not updated on Reinhardt but I could then believe a jaw that is still is more important. So even if sound is good someone should do a change in ones technique if needed so the jaw is still in all registers.

Well this is how I interpret the discussion.

/Tom

For what it is worth (lol), that is my approach as well. Sound trumps, but form rules.

...Geezer

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:39 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 06, 2017, 06:32AMFor what it is worth (lol), that is my approach as well. Sound trumps, but form rules.

...Geezer

...oops Geezer I changed that red marked text slightly, but very important...

/Tom

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:42 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Aug 06, 2017, 06:39AM...oops Geezer I changed that red marked text slightly, but very important...

/Tom

Okay. I get it. I made the change.

I believe the important concept is that doing whatever we need to do to get a good sound [s]will[/s] may win the battle, but good form will win the war.

...Geezer

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:01 am

QuoteAs there are changes in your sound when you lower or raise your jaw, I would suggest that you concetrate on your sound more. I know very well that is agaist the Rainhardt ide, but that is my idea. Whe you are playing music the thought about the jaw is not as important as the thought of the sound.
Wich is first, the hen or the egg?

I think it is ok to note movements of the jaw.

When trying to correct things, you may go different ways.

You can concentrate on the jaw as the main thing. And latter notis the sound is different.

You can concentrate on the sound as the main thing. And then notice that the sound is different.
Quote For me I draw to conclusion that according to Sven a lowered jaw is okay as long as everything sounds good and can be played with good result.
Well, I think a lowered jaw most of the time changes the sound. The question is : if it sounds good i the whole range, is the jaw still jumping?

I the other hand, if everything sounds good and the playing works good, but the jaw still is jumping, then you may have a very special physicle settup that you do a workaround to master.

That is not the case.

It might for some (famous) players who move their jaw much but the playing works beautiful.

But we all notice that your sound changes when your jaw lowers. And rais.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:07 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Aug 06, 2017, 04:53AMThere is nothing about concentrating on sound that is against the Reinhardt approach. That's a common misconception. It's all about the sound - the only difference is being more aware of the things that affect it, so you're not randomly hoping that something will improve just because you're thinking about sound. Awareness gives you something real to practice and get better, so then you can forget about and just play.

Sorry about that Doug.
"Don´t go by sound, go by feel"
Isn´t that a qvote from Donald?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:18 am

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:05 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Aug 06, 2017, 11:18AMNo.

I am sorry, I of some reason have probably mixed up some memories.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:12 am

About the "jaw drop"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1OX7-_80eI watch from 3.27

This is not a speciality for Mark, could be just any pro basstrombonist.

That is not to be understood as the same thing as big jaw movements in the ordiany tenor range.

Most important is the apperture though, mark that even in the jaw drop for "big pedals" the

apperture does not get so big that the lips don´t touch.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:43 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Aug 05, 2017, 07:38AMI will do a video in a couple of months, because it needs some serious practice. What I have felt is I need to go about "half-way" from my lowest jaw-position to my highest jaw-position.

...or I need to keep my jaw closed in the interval

I notice I have the problem in that interval. It is a shift in the embouchure when I go into and out of that register. Then I close the jaw as I go lower but do another switch with a drop when I play the factitious notes. Think these changes is what I have to get rid of. More closed jaw for those areas.

/Tom

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:28 am

Tom I really don´t know this, but is you apperture more open on the factitious tones then the other?
I that case, try not to open the apperture between you lips, the space between your lips do not have be larger for the factitious tones. Maybe you should even try to have the lips closer?
As I said, I am not sure, but......

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:05 pm

Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 07, 2017, 10:28AMTom I really don´t know this, but is you apperture more open on the factitious tones then the other?
I that case, try not to open the apperture between you lips, the space between your lips do not have be larger for the factitious tones. Maybe you should even try to have the lips closer?
As I said, I am not sure, but......

I think I use a little pressure from the mouthpiece to compensate that I'm a bit loose in the mouth-corners when I play the factitious notes. The aparture IS closed/not very open but it is accomplished with a little help from the mouth-piece. There is a jaw drop also, that helps me to play them louder.

The change I'm doing now is NO jaw drop and a release of pressure from the mouth-piece, but still to keep the lips more together my mouth-corners need to be more together or firm. I don't know how to describe this but I now try to push the lips more together and forward like a "kiss". Hope you get the picture. I have an image as if the trombone "hangs" from the lip when I'm playing low. Crazy? This forward feeling begins about

b

and continue down the register.

I notice I'm getting more tired when I play like this and the factitious notes are not as loud as they were before, but they are clear and articulated. I think this will improve as my mouth-corners becomes stronger. Now my jaw is not dropped, but I still feel I need SOME volume in the mouth cavity. I try to do this with loosing up my chin slightly, instead of dropping the jaw. Not much, just a little looser on the right side of my chin, still keeping the right mouth-corner there tight. Not to much either, not as much as a PUFFED cheek. It is only slightly loose. That small amount of volume seems to helps the sound a bit. I think NO pressure (down here) needs a stronger lip than I have at the moment. This is what I think have to strengthen. This describes what I think I'm doing.

Yesterday the factitious notes got better as I worked. I'm starting practice now. It's a bit late here so there will not be more than 20 minutes of practice today.

There is still a shift in this register

/Tom