TromboneChat

I'm thinking about purchasing a jazz Bb tenor trombone, which I would play in the pep band, jazz band, and concert band at high school and through college.
Would a jazz trombone be appropriate for a concert band or should I stick to my Yamaha student trombone for that?

A concert band? Sure.

A serious wind band? Probably not.

It really depends on your college. How do they do things?

In high school, absolutely. Even in college, a jazz horn can be used on concert band kinds of stuff, but there is depends more on the literature, whether the 1st trombone needs to be lighter or heavier. IMHO it can be used a lot more than it typically is in college. Bigger is not always better, even for "serious" stuff. If you end up on 2nd trombone, it actually matters even less. 2nd parts are much more about your ears than your equipment.

So are the other parts, speaking of.

If it's between buying a new horn and sticking to a Yamaha student horn.... What's the question? The most appropriate horn will be the one that plays/sounds best. Between a Yamaha 354 (i.e .500 bore) and a so-called Jazz horn aka just a small bore horn, +/-500... The Yamaha isn't made more appropriate by its size, and will be of lesser quality.

Now if your Yamaha is a 356,might be a different question. The larger bore might make you blend with the others better even  though it won't play as nice as your new horn (plus having a trigger does help in a lot of advanced concert band pieces). But you'll want a good small bore horn in college no matter what.

Ysk 645, 646, or 630 would be better probably ly. Medium bore. Jack of all trades type deal where you could use it for everything. Esp. As an amateur

I know a few good Jazz players who are playing lead (and small Combo work) on what would be considered a student horn. If your student horn is in good condition and plays well you might want to consider using that as your jazz horn, and getting a Medium or Large bore horn for college concert band.  Even though you may be playing lead now in high school you might find yourself playing second or 3rd parts in College concert band.   

i just wanna be sure... when folks refer to a 'jazz horn', it just means 'small bore', right? I mean, there are plenty of groups/styles of NON-jazz music where small bore can fit, as well as many opportunities for a "classical" horn to perform in a jazz environment.

Little with semantics I guess

I can't read the OP's mind, but I think he's talking about smaller bore trombones.  I've played 1st in my community band with anything from a King 2B to a Bach 36 (and larger).  Depends on how snooty the people in the band are.

Yes, I've used some small bores in Orchestra as well.  Sometimes a smaller horn blends better when you are trying to be a bridge to the French Horns.

Quote from: BGuttman on Jul 25, 2017, 11:32AMYes, I've used some small bores in Orchestra as well.  Sometimes a smaller horn blends better when you are trying to be a bridge to the French Horns.

This!!!

Who exactly decided we had to play a large bore on 1st, lest we be called wimps?

I used to have a silver plated 1951 6H (which I regretted selling the minute I sold it...). I sold it to a guy who was studying at the college where I was rehearsing, so instead of bringing my 42, one day, I brought the 6H for him and played the rehearsal on it. My section was very skeptical, until we started playing (Rachmaninoff Symphony no. 2). It was the nicest blend and color palette we had in any of that program's rehearsals. Very eye-opening

I think the same guy (it was probably a guy; I can't imagine a gal doing this) who decided that the only "real" French Horn was a double in F-Bb decided that the only "real" trombone had an F-attachment.  I say fie on him!!

I especially like small bores for intimate ensembles and French rep with only one trombone.  My Bach 36 with its F attachment is good, but a smaller horn like a King 3B-F or Olds Recording with F might even be better.

100 years ago everyone played small bore trombones.

Quote from: BillO on Jul 25, 2017, 02:17PM100 years ago everyone played small bore trombones.
If your Yamaha is a YSL-354, it's fine for all those things you mentioned.  No need to buy another horn at all.

"Trombones don't play jazz; people play jazz."

For two years in my university symphonic band, all the tenor trombone players used .525 and .547 instruments, except the section principal, who played circles around everyone on his King 2B.  He was also principal in the university orchestra, using the same instrument.

Quote from: Woolworth on Jul 25, 2017, 03:33PM"Trombones don't play jazz; people play jazz."

Quote from: BillO on Jul 25, 2017, 02:19PMIf your Yamaha is a YSL-354, it's fine for all those things you mentioned.  No need to buy another horn at all.
Come on Bill, what has 'need' got to do with it?  Playing with my new Stork Custom T3 mp.  Ebay for $10 Cdn!

Quote from: leec on Aug 17, 2017, 03:04PMCome on Bill, what has 'need' got to do with it?  Playing with my new Stork Custom T3 mp.  Ebay for $10 Cdn!
We need to be able to by trombone stuff without having a need to.

Good price!

The first trombone parts in most college-level concert band music have more in common with orchestra 2nd-3rd trombone parts than lead jazz bone parts. If I had to pick 'one horn to rule them all' for college (which I pretty much have with the exception of using a different beater) I'd go with a medium or large bore w/ an f-attachment. If you're planning on seriously gigging with a jazz band then you'll probably wear yourself out playing lead on long sets with a large bore, but if you're gonna try and cover a part on say, a Maslanka symphony for wind band, you're gonna have a bad time playing it on an instrument built for jazz.

The Yamaha 354 IS a great "jazz Bb" trombone. "Student" label be damned!  Max Acree, who I consider to be an up-and-coming giant in modern jazz trombone, plays one exclusively!
You might think about a larger bore. Then you'll have everything covered.

Quote from: paulyg on Aug 18, 2017, 10:29AMIf you're planning on seriously gigging with a jazz band then you'll probably wear yourself out playing lead on long sets with a large bore
Yeah that will happen. Many moons ago I found myself in 1st chair and all I had for a horn was a King 4B.  After 6 months my chops got used to it aided by a drop down from a 4G TO 6.5AL.  It was strenuous at fist, even with the smaller mouthpiece.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jul 25, 2017, 11:51AMThis!!!

Who exactly decided we had to play a large bore on 1st, lest we be called wimps?

I used to have a silver plated 1951 6H (which I regretted selling the minute I sold it...). I sold it to a guy who was studying at the college where I was rehearsing, so instead of bringing my 42, one day, I brought the 6H for him and played the rehearsal on it. My section was very skeptical, until we started playing (Rachmaninoff Symphony no. 2). It was the nicest blend and color palette we had in any of that program's rehearsals. Very eye-opening

Denis Wick really helped make it happen, but it was already a thing in the US before that.

I think he'd be pretty hard to argue with. Start with Denis.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Aug 18, 2017, 04:17PMDenis Wick really helped make it happen, but it was already a thing in the US before that.

I think he'd be pretty hard to argue with. Start with Denis.

I think Dennis Wick loved .547 horns because he had a huge overbite and needed a big mouthpiece. Large mouthpieces need large horns.
So disappeared small bores trombones from the symphony orchestra. Then they were replaced by an alto trombone Eb, which sounds worse than a small bore tenor. (IMHO)
But Dennis Wick was lucky and he did not play alto trombone.

Well, this depends on the conductor and the section.

I subbed in a pretty good concert band, and I used my 42B on that occasion. Later, when I decided to join the band, I noticed that most players were using King 3B or equivalent so I started using my .508 891Z.

Things were going well, but when we about the play a more classical program, I brought out my 42B for a rehearsal. At break, I spoke to the conductor, and he simply said: "I need a lead trombone, not a first trombone." OK, so I put the 42B away and I've used my 891Z ever since.

I also subbed in an orchestra under the same conductor, and I asked which sound he wanted. He still wanted the brighter sound, so my 42B is still in its case.

Thanks for all of the input! It has helped a lot!

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Aug 18, 2017, 04:17PMDenis Wick really helped make it happen, but it was already a thing in the US before that.

I think he'd be pretty hard to argue with. Start with Denis.
Yes Emory Remington at Eastman School of Music, as well as principal Trombone with the Rochester Philharmonic worked with CG Conn on the development of the 88H a little bit before Wick, and his influence on US orchestral players, especially those training at Eastman was widespread in the US.
 

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Aug 18, 2017, 04:17PMDenis Wick really helped make it happen, but it was already a thing in the US before that.

I think he'd be pretty hard to argue with. Start with Denis.

I vaguely remember hearing a story about DW hearing large bores when Remington was in the UK.

Quote from: DaveAshley on Aug 18, 2017, 12:06PMThe Yamaha 354 IS a great "jazz Bb" trombone. "Student" label be damned!  Max Acree, who I consider to be an up-and-coming giant in modern jazz trombone, plays one exclusively!
You might think about a larger bore. Then you'll have everything covered.
Yes! If your horn is in good shape you allready have a good horn! That horn is in no way a lesser quality horn!
Use it for every thing untill you do find that you might need a arger horn in orchestra.

When my son reports for college football camp he brings his Conn 6H (.500) so he can get some practice in before fall auditions. For the Wind Symphony he plays a Conn 88HTO (.547) and for big band he plays a King 6B (.562 bass).  This winter when he tours Europe with the Wind Orchestra he'll be playing the Conn 88HTO.  I guess you play what your director wants.  Listening to the two big bands at my son's school trombone section in one of the bands is made up primarily of large bore instruments, in my son's band it's King 2B on lead, King 3B's on 2nd and 3rd and my son's King 6B on bass; his band's trombone section sounds fantastic, the other band's trombone section sounds a bit unfocused to me.

When my son reports for college football camp he brings his Conn 6H (.500) so he can get some practice in before fall auditions. For the Wind Symphony he plays a Conn 88HTO (.547) and for big band he plays a King 6B (.562 bass).  This winter when he tours Europe with the Wind Orchestra he'll be playing the Conn 88HTO.  I guess you play what your director wants.  Listening to the two big bands at my son's school trombone section in one of the bands is made up primarily of large bore instruments, in my son's band it's King 2B on lead, King 3B's on 2nd and 3rd and my son's King 6B on bass; his band's trombone section sounds fantastic, the other band's trombone section sounds a bit unfocused to me.