TromboneChat

Can anyone offer feedback on the Centennial Bach models with the German rotary valve, or the new modular A47 series ?

On paper, they look interesting though I haven't had an opportunity to try yet. I currently have a 42BOG (gold brass bell, deliberately chosen) which I like apart from the slightly stuffy valve. I have played an axial valved 42 and quite liked this also, but as I'm used to a fast throw rotary, the open flow models seem a good option.

I missed out on an open box sale of a LT42BOFG recently and wondering whether to pursue finding one, or the related models. (Side question - has anyone tried the 42 BOF and LT 42 BOFG - if so, what difference did you find in reality?)

Thanks in advance.

The A47 has been tweaked enough that it basically counts as a different horn, at least different from every other 42 offered today. In my opinion, it is far superior.

The centennial model addresses the big weakness with every 42 since the Mt. Vernon days (at least after they stopped sourcing from Germany), the valve. It's unbelievable that the stock 42 valve still exists. It is an atrocity. That valve spawned an entire cottage industry dedicated to mitigating the horrible effect that it has on an otherwise solid horn.

If you like your 42, have someone throw an instrument innovations rotary valve on it. They will work with the existing attachment tubing. They are FAR superior to the stock valve. There are a few techs on here that do this work. Eric Edwards did a horn that I wound up with, and I was extremely happy with the way that one played.

Yup, if you really want a new horn a 42BOFG would be a fine choice.

I'm going to be that guy... (maybe to pull Paul's chain a bit) is the stock 42B valve really that bad?

Sure it's terrible to play down low but it doesn't really get in the way of C or B in the staff or the upper register. At least ensemble rep or gigs I have let to encounter anything with my stock Corp. 42B where I wanted to throw in the towel because of the valve. Solo rep where you're honking out low C all the time is another topic entirely haha.

Bad enough for the professional that David is the only person I can think of using one in an American orchestra.

I certainly don't miss mine (I've had 3).

I think there are the random ones here and there that play great (David's for example) but I don't think anyone would disagree that the 42 isn't improved by almost any new valve choice.

I have a 42BO and I had the Instrument Innovations valve installed.
Incredibly open , The best valve i`ve ever played

The A47 and 42BOF represent what a Bach 42BO SHOULD be at the prices they charge for them. They charge an EXTRA $600 for substituting the Meinlschmidt Open Flow valve in place of the stock Bach valve.

You can get a Conn 88HO for quite a bit less, with a MUCH better valve than the stock Bach Valve. I have never understood their utter unwillingness to abandon that crappy valve design.

I once tried 2 42BOs, 42BOF, and LT42BOFG back to back for my school band director.

I first tried the two 42BOs. They have big core typical of Bach, but the resistance is quite high, so they sounded “stressed”. The two horns were also noticeably different from each other, with one having more “core” but darker sound, and another one being brighter and has more “halo” to the sound.

I then tried the 42BOF, which sounded better than the 42BOs in every way. More brilliance but with core, less resistance, and overall just feel better.

Then, the shop offer me to try the LT. The sound was darker but, strangely, has somewhat “tinny” tinge to it, perhaps from the lightweight slide.

In the end the director chose the 42BOF. It turns out that the particular 42BOF was artist selected, so no doubt it sounded good.

Mouthpiece used in the test were Bach 4GM, 5G, and Douglas Yeo (!) which is my main mouthpiece.

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:09 pm In the end the director chose the 42BOF. It turns out that the particular 42BOF was artist selected, so no doubt it sounded good.

WELL, it's just my opinion but I think most all Bach's at the factory are artist selected. I don't know where I saw the picture, but I think every Bach the artist played had an artist selected tag on it. It is what it is.

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:09 pm It turns out that the particular 42BOF was artist selected, so no doubt it sounded good.

Here is an admittedly sped-up video of David Rejano play testing 86 trombones at the factory. Take from it what you will...



Andrew

Bach42t wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:27 pm

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:09 pm In the end the director chose the 42BOF. It turns out that the particular 42BOF was artist selected, so no doubt it sounded good.

WELL, it's just my opinion but I think most all Bach's at the factory are artist selected. I don't know where I saw the picture, but I think every Bach the artist played had an artist selected tag on it. It is what it is.

A lot are tested (by artists) but there is a retailer deal where they buy the ones hand picked. If you can commit to buying a certain amount of Bach products you get to get ones picked by an artist (as a retailer). And those come with a card signed by that person. The ones not picked are still fine I am sure and just go out as usual.

About the LT slide, I'm probably in the minority opinion but I'm a big fan of it. I find 42s have a very nice , quite complex tone character but they tend to be ever so slightly stuffier than other horns. Every LT slide I've tried sacrifices a very tiny bit of that complexity (while still retaining a lot of it) in a way that is somewhat noticeable behind the bell and barely noticeable from a distance, in exchange for a quite notable improvement in response and making the horn quite a bit more nimble.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:55 pm About the LT slide, I'm probably in the minority opinion but I'm a big fan of it. I find 42s have a very nice , quite complex tone character but they tend to be ever so slightly stuffier than other horns. Every LT slide I've tried sacrifices a very tiny bit of that complexity (while still retaining a lot of it) in a way that is somewhat noticeable behind the bell and barely noticeable from a distance, in exchange for a quite notable improvement in response and making the horn quite a bit more nimble.

I love my LT slide. I am always amazed how light it is. It is a durable design and resists corrosion for the long run. A perfect slide.

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:15 pm

Bach42t wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:27 pm

WELL, it's just my opinion but I think most all Bach's at the factory are artist selected. I don't know where I saw the picture, but I think every Bach the artist played had an artist selected tag on it. It is what it is.

A lot are tested (by artists) but there is a retailer deal where they buy the ones hand picked. If you can commit to buying a certain amount of Bach products you get to get ones picked by an artist (as a retailer). And those come with a card signed by that person. The ones not picked are still fine I am sure and just go out as usual.

Interesting, thanks for that fact. I didn't know that.

+1 to those above who disliked the standard Bach valve. Way too stuffy, too much resistance... every Elkhart 42 I've had the opportunity to try with the standard rotary has been this way--sucks down low. I haven't tried too many examples of the "new" wave of Bachs (including the 47), but I did try the Centennials (both configurations)... to me the all yellow brass was easily "better"... the LT42BOFG...XYZ (these names...) setup was just too compact and brittle from what I could tell...didn't play like a typical 42 (that is--dense, dark(?), stable, lots of core).

Hi all, nice to meet you! I found this interesting topic and I’m comparing these types at this moment! I have a slight preference for the artisan, however, I’m struggling a bit with my left hand grip of the instrument. It’s really different from the 42s. Any thoughts on this?

Gr, Jan

If you like your horn except for the valve then a valve replacement is something to seriously consider. I have a 1992 42BO yellow brass bell that I recently had the standard valve replaced with an Instrument Innovations rotary valve. It was like getting a new horn. Better articulations, easier intervals with and without the valve, and a more open feel. I even think the sound is a bit darker.

What about a hagman conversion? Don't hear about a lot of people doing that.

JCBone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:44 am What about a hagman conversion? Don't about a lot of people doing that.

Hagmanns are expensive and you can't reuse the wrap. Axials are cheaper, and rotaries are way cheaper.

Peacemate wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:53 pm

JCBone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:44 am What about a hagman conversion? Don't about a lot of people doing that.

Hagmanns are expensive and you can't reuse the wrap. Axials are cheaper, and rotaries are way cheaper.

Makes sense

Peacemate wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:53 pm

JCBone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:44 am What about a hagman conversion? Don't about a lot of people doing that.

Hagmanns are expensive and you can't reuse the wrap. Axials are cheaper, and rotaries are way cheaper.

Hagmanns are expensive, so are Axials (can't use the oem wrap either), Instrument Innovations rotors are not plug in play, but cheaper. No guaranty, old horn will be markedly improve. You can buy a Bach 42a. between 2400-3700. Which is a proven horn, ask "HornGuys"
"This is our favorite option for the Bach 42 trombone. This model includes a Swiss-made Rene Hagman rotary valve, as seen on Haag, Rath, and Courtois trombones. This valve is made with individual tubes soldered together inside the rotor casing, allowing a very light, resonant rotor. The air flow on the Bb side is almost totally straight through the rotor, and the F side gently channels the air out the back through swooping, beautifully arced tubing. The throw is short and very fast, and the maintenance is very easy. The rotor cap presses on and stays tight with a small rubber O-ring, and Hagman simply recommends dumping any oil inside the rotor casing (even Al Cass). You will want to keep this rotor well lubricated, as it can be prone to leakage since the air is channeled out the back.
How does it play? It feels more open than the standard 42BO, and the response is effortless in comparison. The feel between Bb and F is very even, and this vibrant rotor simply makes the Bach trombone sing.

In lacquer, with brass slide and yellow brass bell, with hard case and Bach mouthpiece. Also available with gold brass bell for $100 additional. We can often ship the gold brass model in about 10 days."

JCBone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:44 am What about a hagman conversion? Don't hear about a lot of people doing that.

It's cheaper to get a horn that is equipped with an Hagmann in the first place, but if you have a really solid used 42 that you like, chances are a Hagmann conversion is a good idea. They arent that uncommon really. Hagmann himself has made a lot of them and he sells kits specifically for the 42 for people who can't send him their horn. I had mine converted to a Hagmann 10 years ago and have been extremely happy with the change. Depending on the exchange rate, it ranges from relatively expensive to "I could buy a whole other (used) 42 for the price"-expensive. That's because the cost of doing business in Switzerland is insanely high, and the Swiss currency is usually fairly strong. The wrap is not reusable, and the lever and linkage are far from directly compatible so you need to order a conversion kit (usually comes with the wrap already installed on the valve), unless your tech can make a wrap from various modded parts. The kit comes with a replacement slide receiver which is an improvement over the stock receiver. The conversion requires slightly shortening the gooseneck as well. There is a choice of wraps the standard being open, but other options include a double-O half-closed wrap (Yamaha style) or X-shaped wrap.

One note : the wrap Bach uses on the 42A factory assembly is very slightly different than the default open wrap Hagmann provides with his kits. A converted 42A with open wrap has an E pull, but the Bach-made 42A doesn't.

Recently bought an LT42BOFG from Quinn. This horn with Open Flow valve is a better horn than my NY Shires, or Conn 88HSGXCL! Add a Griego ES5 mouthpiece and you have the closest thing to heaven a trombone can offer! This is the first trombone I’ve encountered in which the value has no detectable affect on the Bb side of the horn. C and B play, sound, feel exactly like the do in 6th or 7th position. IMHO.

Model34 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:23 am Recently bought an LT42BOFG from Quinn. This horn with Open Flow valve is a better horn than my NY Shires, or Conn 88HSGXCL! Add a Griego ES5 mouthpiece and you have the closest thing to heaven a trombone can offer! This is the first trombone I’ve encountered in which the value has no detectable affect on the Bb side of the horn. C and B play, sound, feel exactly like the do in 6th or 7th position. IMHO.

Is yours with the centennial engraving? I was reading up on Conn-Selmer's webpage and it mentioned two different types of the same horn, albeit one with a lighter gold bell. I wanted to call them, but they're closed.

trombonegordita wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2024 5:07 pm

Model34 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:23 am Recently bought an LT42BOFG from Quinn. This horn with Open Flow valve is a better horn than my NY Shires, or Conn 88HSGXCL! Add a Griego ES5 mouthpiece and you have the closest thing to heaven a trombone can offer! This is the first trombone I’ve encountered in which the value has no detectable affect on the Bb side of the horn. C and B play, sound, feel exactly like the do in 6th or 7th position. IMHO.

Is yours with the centennial engraving? I was reading up on Conn-Selmer's webpage and it mentioned two different types of the same horn, albeit one with a lighter gold bell. I wanted to call them, but they're closed.

Mine is: Specification No special engraving
Gold brass bell
Lightweight nickel handslide
European-designed, open-flow rotary valve
"Bell-free bracing" style
.547" bore
Traditional 42 slide mouthpipe
Genuine Vincent Bach model 3416HA mouthpiece
Deluxe Centennial model wood shell case.

I just received today: a Protec EXPLORER gig bag model C239X. That Deluxe Centennial model wood shell case is just too heavy. And it is much easier to get a horn in and out of this model gig bag with the slide and bell compartments separate. There is nothing to plop open needing a lot of space, or trying to shut on you while you’re trying to get the slide out of the case with bell in left hand! And I’m no longer on the road in need of a tank of a case.

Thank you, Model34!

(please excuse multiple posts; I've hit submit but haven't seen anything update).