TromboneChat

We are thinking of making a new Trombonium.  We are trying to get some feedback on how much interest there would be.  It would not be like the King or the Conn.  Thinking of something in the .508 range, a compensated valve block, with a front facing bell. Think it would be worth our while to put the $$$ into R&D?????  Comments ???

Those are neat, but I don't think I'd really buy one. I'd probably buy an F alto before a trombonium. Or a double valve (0ne removable) large tenor with 9" bell and dual bore 547/562 slide.

Ooh, a compensating trombonium. I'd be about it, but as I have a flugabone my money would go to other things first like hyperbolica (in my case a large bore soprano with a valve). Tromboniums are cool and one day I'd like to have a complete family of alto/tenor/bass (alto tromboniums were a thing), but they're not really used for anything unlike, say, an ophicleide which at least has some historical use. I would rather play a trombonium than my flugabone in a brass quintet though (assuming trombone or euph wasn't what I was looking for), if that's worth anything. Of course, I'd love to see what you guys came up with.

Quote from: chipolah on Jul 11, 2017, 11:59AMWe are thinking of making a new Trombonium.  We are trying to get some feedback on how much interest there would be.  It would not be like the King or the Conn.  Thinking of something in the .508 range, a compensated valve block, with a front facing bell. Think it would be worth our while to put the $$$ into R&D?????  Comments ???
Sounds cool, but nobody would buy it. What happened to that bass trombone that was in developement?

Quote from: SethMatrix on Jul 11, 2017, 03:10PMSounds cool, but nobody would buy it. What happened to that bass trombone that was in developement?


I was wondering as well

A trombonium would be a neat thing to have, but it doesn't really have many uses outside of maybe jazz, small ensembles, or solo work. Even then... there's a reason why King and Conn discontinued their tromboniums.

Quote from: SethMatrix on Jul 11, 2017, 03:10PMSounds cool, but nobody would buy it. What happened to that bass trombone that was in developement?


The bass trbn is in production now and it will be ready soon.

Quote from: chipolah on Jul 11, 2017, 06:12PMThe bass trbn is in production now and it will be ready soon.

Oh cool. Any details on specifications or design?

I would be interested. I had a flugabone but found it hard on my left wrist.  I would like it to be inexpensive and as compact as possible for travel.  So, maybe not compensating (although it pains me to say that) but with a removable bell for a small case.  How does a main tuning slide trigger compare to compensating on cost?

Can't say that I would definitely buy. Maybe a flugabone and support would be enough. 

Quote from: chipolah on Jul 11, 2017, 11:59AMWe are thinking of making a new Trombonium.  We are trying to get some feedback on how much interest there would be.  It would not be like the King or the Conn.  Thinking of something in the .508 range, a compensated valve block, with a front facing bell. Think it would be worth our while to put the $$$ into R&D?????  Comments ???

No, but there is a market for a bass trombonium  (a cimbasso sounding isntrument wrapped like a traditional bell front tuba)

Quote from: 58mark on Jul 11, 2017, 08:26PMNo, but there is a market for a bass trombonium  (a cimbasso sounding isntrument wrapped like a traditional bell front tuba)


Now that I would be all over. I feel like it would sound more like a long bass trombone than a contra (as in the cimbasso) though. F and Eb?

3-valve compensating or 4-valve compensating? Front or top action?

I'm envisioning something based on the valve block of your existing three-valve compensating baritone, but with a trombone bore profile downstream of the valves?

Quote from: JohnL on Jul 11, 2017, 10:40PM3-valve compensating or 4-valve compensating? Front or top action?

I'm envisioning something based on the valve block of your existing three-valve compensating baritone, but with a trombone bore profile downstream of the valves?
Yes... using the compensating 3 valve block from our Baritone is very high up on the consideration scale and a Trombone bore profile !!!

A front-action trombonium like the old Conns would, I think, have a place. I would certainly be interested.

Quote from: Driving Park on Jul 11, 2017, 10:35PMNow that I would be all over. I feel like it would sound more like a long bass trombone than a contra (as in the cimbasso) though. F and Eb?

Either... or both?    I would think that being a cylindrical instrument, you could flip it from one to the other

Quote from: chipolah on Jul 11, 2017, 10:51PMYes... using the compensating 3 valve block from our Baritone is very high up on the consideration scale and a Trombone bore profile !!!You do realize that once you have the trombonium bell dialed in, you could use it to make a double-belled euphonium?

Quote from: amichael on Jul 11, 2017, 07:54PMI had a flugabone but found it hard on my left wrist.  I would like it to be inexpensive and as compact as possible for travel.  So, maybe not compensating (although it pains me to say that) but with a removable bell for a small case.I think this might be where you potential market is. You compensating baritone is already a pretty compact instrument; if it had a detachable bell, that would make it even more so. How 'bout a three-piece system with a detachable bell section (like the old Conn 20I) and then a bell flare that can be unscrewed from that? It'd add some weight, but the case could be pretty flat.

How about something more like a Conn 90G?  Large-bore.

They generally sell for 5x what King tromboniums sell for.  That says something about the market...

While you're at it, how about making the first new double-bell euphonium in over 50 years?  I've never understood why no one makes them, considering how desirable they still are...

Quote from: chipolah on Jul 11, 2017, 10:51PMYes... using the compensating 3 valve block from our Baritone is very high up on the consideration scale and a Trombone bore profile !!!

I have never thought a 3 valve auto compensation system made sense. 4 non compensating makes more sense. With a 3 valve compensator, you lengthen the tubing when 1 and 3 are used in combination or 2 and 3 are used in combination. The longer tubing makes sens for concert C with 1 and 3 but does not for the low concert F with 1 and 3. If you tune for the C you are flat for the F and vice versa. With a 4 valve non compensating you can play the C with 4 and the F with 1 and 3.

MJL

Quote from: SBMaestro on Jul 12, 2017, 08:27AMWhile you're at it, how about making the first new double-bell euphonium in over 50 years?  I've never understood why no one makes them, considering how desirable they still are...Part of what makes them desirable is their rarity - particularly ones in really good condition.

Quote from: SBMaestro on Jul 12, 2017, 08:27AMWhile you're at it, how about making the first new double-bell euphonium in over 50 years?  I've never understood why no one makes them, considering how desirable they still are...
Are they?  They tend to sell for less than a decent Euph.

There was a funny attempt at a modern double bell in the 90s.  Not sure if it is still available as a story on the net.  It was mostly a failure, but I think a big portion of that is the bell they tried to use (a bass trombone flare).

edit: Found it! (and they didn't consider it a failure, though if it doesn't have a great timbral difference, what's the point?)
http://web.archive.org/web/20051228064610/http:/mmis.us/wf/MMIS/DB/euph.html

Cheers,
Andy

Quote from: elmsandr on Jul 12, 2017, 10:34AMand they didn't consider it a failure, though if it doesn't have a great timbral difference, what's the point?It's all in how one defines success vs. failure.

Quote Pitch discrepancies between the two bells are relatively minor, and with the left-hand tuning system, pose no real problem.Relatively takes in a lot of territory. I'd feel a whole lot better if he'd written something more like: "As expected, there are some pitch discrepancies between the two bells, but these were well within the range of correction available using the left-hand tuning system."

QuoteThe timbral difference between the two bells is not as great as expected - perhaps this is due as much to the large shank, deep cup mouthpiece as much as anything else. A continuation of this project should probably include the design of a new mouthpiece that is able to bring out the desired characteristics of both sides of the instrument.I'd like to see a mouthpiece that makes the trombone side sound more like a trombone without also making the euphonium side also sound more like a trombone.

But Dr. Mallett's project certainly points up significant issue with making a modern double-bell instrument - there would be the expectation that the euphonium side would actually be a modern euphonium. Mating something like that up to a trombonium bell sized to provide the hope-for timbral difference would not be easy.

Just my opinion, but  much better bass trumpet would be better, hopefully with available with three or four valves and in B flat or in C.

Quote from: modelerdc on Jul 12, 2017, 08:42PMJust my opinion, but  much better bass trumpet would be better, hopefully with available with three or four valves and in B flat or in C.

I agree. Four rotary valves in C with a pitch finder like the Thein or Alex (but not 10k). Something similar in Eb would be cool too.

That double-bell built in the 90s sounds like it was a one-off, though.  And it was a modification of an existing single-bell euphonium.  I play my 1920s Conn double-bell euph regularly for Oktoberfest gigs, and it is a great instrument (thanks to a set of rebuilt valves), as well as an eye-catcher.  But I'd love to see a large-shank modern double-bell euph--or god forbid--a _compensating_ double bell euph...

Quote from: trombonemetal on Jul 12, 2017, 08:48PMI agree. Four rotary valves in C with a pitch finder like the Thein or Alex (but not 10k). Something similar in Eb would be cool too.

Yup, I'd get one.

Quote from: modelerdc on Jul 12, 2017, 08:42PMJust my opinion, but  much better bass trumpet would be better, hopefully with available with three or four valves and in B flat or in C.

agreed.

although i'd buy a double bell too

I'd much rather prefer a lighter, freer blowing non comp 3 valve horn with a long 3rd valve slide over a 3 valve comp. An even better idea is to use the 4 front valve .56x valve set.


A bass version would be interesting. I've got a 3 valve .562 Eb but I think .590 would be better.

I think Wessex is better to begin to produce the German style oval tenors and oval baritones. They are much better sounding than trombonium. There will be a big market in Germany, Austria, Russia and other Eastern European countries.
Oval baritone can also be used in jazz. Wayne Henderson and others played an oval baritone...

Wessex already has an oval baritone that is great. 

Quote from: 58mark on Jul 15, 2017, 04:48AMWessex already has an oval baritone that is great.The make a baritone: https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/euphonium-baritone/kaiser-baritone/
(they call it a Kaiser, but  0.59″ (15mm) bore is more like a regular (i.e., not Kaiser) baritone)
and a tenor horn: https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/euphonium-baritone/br130-german-tenor-horn/

An aside: if anyone from Wessex is reading this, you should check the bore spec listed on the page for the BR130; it says: "0.44″ (13mm)"; those two numbers don't agree.

Quote from: 58mark on Jul 15, 2017, 04:48AMWessex already has an oval baritone that is great.The make a baritone: https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/euphonium-baritone/kaiser-baritone/
(they call it a Kaiser, but  0.59″ (15mm) bore is more like a regular (i.e., not Kaiser) baritone)
and a tenor horn: https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/euphonium-baritone/br130-german-tenor-horn/

An aside: if anyone from Wessex is reading this, you should check the bore spec listed on the page for the BR130; it says: "0.44″ (13mm)"; those two numbers don't agree.