TromboneChat

Hey everyone. Just got back to tour from ITF. What a whirlwind!


Anyway, I thought I would write down some of my thoughts of the horns and mouthpieces of the show before I forget completely.

Thein: great horns. The new Bond bass I wasn't sold on. The Hagmann horns felt better all around. Easy to play and lots of feedback. Tenors were also great!

Greenhoe: great horns. All felt very even and had great feedback and lots of sound. Maybe a little boring.

M&W: great horns. Much like the greenhoes they used to make, but better in most ways I could tell. They felt even but not boring, with more feedback. The basses were very good, and the TIS horn was one of the best in show.

Conn-Selmer: good horns. I'm glad they still make the Hagmann horns, since they seem to be the most consistent performers. The 50A3 was their best bass, followed by the 62Hi, followed by the 50AF3 (which never seem to be set up right). No show for any of the rotor basses from Bach, oddly. 42A was very good. 42AF not as much. Massimo horn was good, with a 42 feel.

Laetzsch: great horns. The basses were not amazing to me. Apparently they brought only heavy bells, and I could tell. They were predictable but nothing special. The tenors were really, really great. Some of the best in show. They have a "student" model (read: college student) horn for around 2300 dollars that is amazing. I actually preferred it to their carbon-rotored top model tenor. Most importantly, their contra was one of the best trombones on the showroom floor altogether. An amazing horn. Easy to play, light, great sound, awesome slide, predictable. Wow.

Rath: not sold on the concept. I'm sure they are great, but they feel too light to me. Very flexible and easy to play, but the sound just isn't there.

Kanstul: much the same complaint as above. Cool horns, but I can't get the sounds I want out of the 1662.

Edwards: skipped all the Getzens (though I played a 1052 for a bit to try a mouthpiece). The Markey horn is OK. Felt a little constricting, though obviously easy to play and well made. The Pagano horn was better IMO but dependent, which isn't my cup of tea. The Alessi tenor was good, but felt very low on feedback, and didn't feel any better than some of the other tenors out there. The Alessi straight tenor was fun. B454? Get outta here. It's not 1998!

Brassark: great horns! The Sawday 42s are something special. The open wrapped one felt like everything I want out of a 42 and was just as easy to play as anything else in the room. The closed wrap horn was also great in some different ways. If my 42 ends up anything like that I'll have a lifetime horn.

Haag: not good. Horns felt shoddy and didn't play well. Very surprising. Maybe just bad examples.

Voight: seemed like OK horns. One was obviously a couple inches too long and very flat. Interesting mistake to make. The bass trumpet was good.

All in all, many many good trombones out there. Thankfully, my bass as it stands is also very good, and I wasn't instantly swayed by anything. There were many horns easier to play, but not many that combined it with an interesting sound and good feedback.

Keep in mind these are my opinions as a Bach player and former student of two Bach players at high levels. I like Bachs!

Thanks for the report. And thanks for the Rath opinion. I`ve felt that way since I first tried them and I get jumped on by people saying they are great. Well maybe they are for some.
I didn`t care for the feel or the sound.

Disappointed to hear about the 42AF.  Do you think it just wasn't put together as it should be?

Did you stop by the Shires booth?

Thank you for the report Aidan!

Quote from: Dukesboneman on Jul 03, 2017, 05:31AMThanks for the report. And thanks for the Rath opinion. I`ve felt that way since I first tried them and I get jumped on by people saying they are great. Well maybe they are for some.
I didn`t care for the feel or the sound.
I love it when people trash Raths.... If they stop selling so many, the price might go down and I could afford some more.  
Light ? Yeah!!!  

Chris Stearn

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jul 03, 2017, 01:07AM...followed by the 50AF3 (which never seem to be set up right)...

This is a pretty common problem at music trade shows, more often than not you run into product that will look the part but play terribly.

Quote from: tombone21 on Jul 03, 2017, 09:36AMDid you stop by the Shires booth?

Yes! I have played them plenty in the past so I didn't spend a lot of time there.

The Lone Star bass is really great. Bollinger bass is also a good horn but I can't do the tuning.

A friend of mine found a Q series tenor with a gold bell (she's been looking for a new horn). She said it was what she needed. I played it and it was one of the best horns I have played, period. Probably a unicorn, but she nabbed it!

Chris, no offense to those that play Raths or to Mick! You guys sound great and the horns are very well made. Just not my cup of tea. A friend of mine bought the TIS alto to replace his Bach 39.

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jul 03, 2017, 11:24AMYes! I have played them plenty in the past so I didn't spend a lot of time there.

The Lone Star bass is really great. Bollinger bass is also a good horn but I can't do the tuning.

A friend of mine found a Q series tenor with a gold bell (she's been looking for a new horn). She said it was what she needed. I played it and it was one of the best horns I have played, period. Probably a unicorn, but she nabbed it!

Chris, no offense to those that play Raths or to Mick! You guys sound great and the horns are very well made. Just not my cup of tea. A friend of mine bought the TIS alto to replace his Bach 39.

No offense taken... just looking forward to the price drop . On this side of the pond I am beginning to think we are on a completely different page... and nothing wrong with that.

Chris Stearn

just to add my $.02

Jupiter XO horns felt and sounded fantastic for me! Couldn't believe the upgrade in quality. I had their rose bell with thru-flo f-attachement horn up there with the Thein Steiner model and Shires horns as my favorites that I tried.

The Haag horns, though the looked pretty cool, were terrible.

Quote from: CSO on Jul 03, 2017, 07:34AMDisappointed to hear about the 42AF.  Do you think it just wasn't put together as it should be?

Not sure. I feel like a good 42 with the Olsen axial (the infinity valve) put on by someone aftermarket would be better, but I'm not sure.


Quote from: William Lang on Jul 03, 2017, 12:20PMjust to add my $.02

Jupiter XO horns felt and sounded fantastic for me! Couldn't believe the upgrade in quality. I had their rose bell with thru-flo f-attachement horn up there with the Thein Steiner model and Shires horns as my favorites that I tried.

The Haag horns, though the looked pretty cool, were terrible.

The Jupiter XO bass with Thayers at the NAMM show was probably the best bass trombone at the whole show. The one at ITF was not quite as good, and wouldn't center A at the top of the bass staff. Maybe dry Thayers, not sure. I'd love a good one.

Quote from: blast on Jul 03, 2017, 12:08PMNo offense taken... just looking forward to the price drop . On this side of the pond I am beginning to think we are on a completely different page... and nothing wrong with that.

Chris Stearn

We are!.....

Quote from: Duffle on Jul 03, 2017, 02:02PMWe are!.....

Can you explain?

My minimal experience with the rath horns leads me to believe the sound is not much different than other trombones but the perception of that sound by the player is a little different.

Quote from: Ellrod on Jul 03, 2017, 02:12PMCan you explain?

Well.... If you have to ask, we couldn't explain. 
Chris Stearn

Serious note.... I wouldn't pass judgement on any horn until I have played it in the musical context that I work in.
Chris Stearn

P.S. my ex student has an XO bass for sale... great horn ... just not in the UK.

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jul 03, 2017, 12:51PMNot sure. I feel like a good 42 with the Olsen axial (the infinity valve) put on by someone aftermarket would be better, but I'm not sure.


The Jupiter XO bass with Thayers at the NAMM show was probably the best bass trombone at the whole show. The one at ITF was not quite as good, and wouldn't center A at the top of the bass staff. Maybe dry Thayers, not sure. I'd love a good one.

The major problem with the Olsen valve that I have heard was that the valve was available, but the tubing must be had elsewhere (like from O.E. Thayer) and other nit noid things have to be modified.  It sounds like the best case scenario to go with the Olsen valve but I think there needs to be a solution that limits all of the extraneous custom modification to get the horn up to snuff.

Did you get a chance to play with the Conn 88H or any of the King horns??  If so, how was the sound, the fit and finish? 

I wasn't wowed when I played the Rath's either which is weird... because on paper Rath's seem like something I'd like....

To me they didn't seem the best maintained towards the end of the show, i.e scratchy slides and slugish valves, and in regards to the basses at least they didn't seem like they were put together the best. The parts definitely weren't chosen as well as the horns at the Edwards or Shires booths.

Quote from: Bach42T on Jul 03, 2017, 06:24PMThe major problem with the Olsen valve that I have heard was that the valve was available, but the tubing must be had elsewhere (like from O.E. Thayer) and other nit noid things have to be modified.  It sounds like the best case scenario to go with the Olsen valve but I think there needs to be a solution that limits all of the extraneous custom modification to get the horn up to snuff.
Major Problem??  Seriously??!?
The mods to the tubing are due to the different geometry of the Olsen axial valve.  The side port is angled a bit more to clear the protrusion for the bearing.  And Mike IS working on the tubing.
But for now,  the solution is OE Thayer tubing & the Olsen valve, a GREAT solution!!
 
And it's NOT that big of a deal to slide & dice the two together!!


Eric

It is tough to make any judgement about the playing qualities of a horn in a room with fifty other trombonist blowing their loudest. Having said that I did find some bass trombones that were appealing. Shires, Edwards, Rath and Schilke (Greenhoe).  Even though Jennifer Wharton sounded amazing on the XO, the horn did not suit me. My favorite horn was a Minick TIB 62H at Noah's booth. I was disappointed that the majority of basses were independent.  I had troubles with the tubing on the independents pressing my head or neck.

Thanks, Bob

Since no one else has yet mentioned them, I want to give a shout out to Brad Close for his new line of sackbuts. 

Quote from: Blowero on Jun 24, 2017, 08:00PM
I will have samples of my new line of hand-made sackbuts at the ITA Festival in Redlands, CA next week for anyone who would like to try them out, as well as sackbut mouthpieces. Noah Gladstone has agreed to be the dealer for these, so more info and pricing to come.

-Brad Close


I was able to briefly try out his tenor sackbut Saturday.  Not only do all his sackbuts look great, the tenor played beautifully.  It blew evenly throughout the entire range (with Brad's #2 mouthpiece).  The slide worked fine.  Not quite authentic - it has a water valve!  (Yes!)  I did not play the alto or bass.

It's been a very long time since I played sackbut seriously, but if someone would hire me for a few early music gigs, this is the instrument that I would purchase in a flash.  The price for the tenor was listed at $3,400.

Congratulations to Brad for a job (very) well done.   Good!

I tried a handful of things, but not a lot:

Edwards (home base for me):
T-350HB - One of three instruments that I have tried that I actually think I like more than my Alessi. (The others were the Shires)
T-383 - Great, felt just like my horn without a valve - but for some reason a little less responsive in the lower register

Shires:
Mostly meh, except the Colin Williams model horn and one with a 7YLW and a Trubore valve, those were fantastic.

Thein:
Kruspe Alto - <3 if only I had the money...
Universal Tenor - Good overall, a bit dull/boring feeling and sounding

Greenhoe(Schilke):
Not particularly impressed... the Bach 42 style one felt unnecessarily heavy and dull and the Conn 88h style was better, but not by much. YMMV

I had my first blow ever a on Williams 4 and Williams 6 that Brassark was selling... if I had the money I would buy it in a heartbeat. That was the most fantastic small bore I have played (especially the 6).  And also, I tried Manfred Schmelzer's horns and was seriously pleased, very very similar to the Williams (in my opinion).

Tried some mouthpieces, I really liked a Greg Bladk NY 1.25, but it was still not as comfy as my DE setup. Speaking of, I picked up a Lexan rim in my size that I really liked from him while I was there (while watching him blow bubbles with his new rim on a stick visualizers). Most other mouthpieces were a no-go.

Another year in the books!

Did anyone try an XO bass with Rotary valves??

Oddly enough, I ended up buying that GB NY 1.25. I didn't think I liked the rim as much as my Wick, but it made the upper register easier and clearer. The selling point were the articulations, which had more weight than my Wick.

Quote from: Posaunus on Jul 03, 2017, 09:12PMI want to give a shout out to Brad Close for his new line of sackbuts. 

I was able to briefly try out his tenor sackbut Saturday.  Not only do all his sackbuts look great, the tenor played beautifully.

... if someone would hire me for a few early music gigs, this is the instrument that I would purchase in a flash.  The price for the tenor was listed at $3,400.

Congratulations to Brad for a job (very) well done.   Good!

My apologies to Brad Close for misrepresenting his sackbut prices - I misread the price tags.  The tenor and alto sackbuts are actually listed at $2,500, and the bass sackbut at $3,400 - fair prices for these high-quality (and beautiful) works of craftsmanship!

I hope that others (who know more about sackbuts than I do) will try Brad's entire collection, will like them as much as I did, and will share their opinions on the Forum. 

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jul 04, 2017, 06:54AMDid anyone try an XO bass with Rotary valves??

Anyone?Anyone?

I didn't spend a lot of time trying instruments, but here are a few impressions:

Liked the Jupiter XO Thayer tenor, didn't care for the bass, and the valves were very sluggish (dealers, you have to keep the slides and valves working well at a show, it's the first impression of a horn!)
Really liked the Thein American Style Tenor.  Like, a LOT.  Also liked the Bond model bass.
Played a Kanstul 1662 that I liked.  Usually gold or red brass don't work for me, and maybe the feedback was better than the sound out front.
The Rath TIS didn't do it for me, but I liked an inline yellow brass bell Rath better.
Yamaha 830.  Strange, it seems that some shows I play one and like it OK, other shows I don't like it at all.  This show I liked it.  Since Yamahas are very consistent, I guess the variable is me.
Yamaha tenor at Hornguys with the strange valve.  Played fine, felt heavier to me than the 882OR (which I like).  Couldn't really explain why.

Spent a lot of time helping a friend of a friend pick a tenor.  He was going back and forth between the Yamaha 882OR, a Courtois, and the Thein American style horn.  He wound up getting a Shilke Greenhoe (which I didn't hear him play).

Most surprised that there was no quiet room for the sheet music dealers.

Forgot to mention I played that YSL-882V. I thought it was pretty great. Better than the average Xeno in most ways, and I loved the blow through the valve.

As for the YBL-830, they are very inconsistent. I have played probably 10 examples, all of which were very different and all over the spectrum, sound wise.

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jul 05, 2017, 08:44AMForgot to mention I played that YSL-882V. I thought it was pretty great. Better than the average Xeno in most ways, and I loved the blow through the valve.

As for the YBL-830, they are very inconsistent. I have played probably 10 examples, all of which were very different and all over the spectrum, sound wise.
Interesting. Your view on the 830 regarding consistency is the opposite of 95% of the bass trombonists that I know.

Most Yamaha trombones are very consistent. But the 830 doesn't seem to follow that trend, maybe due to more handmade parts.

I have played some with huge orchestral sounds, and some that were not good in any way (all new).

Having attended perhaps a dozen of such conventions over the last decade, I've came to find that generally positive reviews of horns are pretty realistic. Its hard to fake a horn playing well, afterall. ...Unless the vendor has "the good one" at the show and produces ones of lesser quality for actual sale, which would - to me - not make a great deal of sense.  However, when it comes to a horn not playing well at a convention that its really hard to separate that out from three things:

1) Poorly maintained, having had dozens of players eat burritos and drink gallons of beer/coffee depending on the time of day and then blow into a horn all day long.    Especially on horns with valves. Or even just lack of prep by the vendor (one of the worst horns I've ever played was the Elliott Mason model at WWBW booth at ITF 2014... but I've since played several horns of that model that are really fantastical... the slide on this one doesn't even seem to have been lubricated at all memory serving)

2) Horn not working well with the mouthpiece you normally play with OR trying to use a mouthpiece that may work with the horn but with which you aren't particularly comfortable

3) Differences in weight distribution that you might not realize.  I was switching between a Shires and a Duo Gravis at a gig I played last night trying to decide which horn was "the one" to keep for me. I found that the hardest part about switching was that the Shires was much better balanced in terms of weight.  If you aren't used to the balance of a particular horn, it isn't very hard to do something that is more or perhaps less efficient than you would normally do. (Bearing in mind that Reinhardt started his method after taking his horn to a repair shop which removed the counterweight incidental with the repair. When he put the horn up to his face it put it in a different spot and was noticeably better, etc.  So it goes with other horns that have varying weights, balance distributions, widths, etc.)

4) A noisy room with dozens of other people blasting out excerpts, where you can't hear yourself and can't really tell anything about the way it would play in your own familiar environment.

(And in case of this year's final jazz concert, a noisy room where dozens of people were drinking and talking DURING THE CONCERT where you can't hear Bob McChesney, Bill Watrous, Dick Nash, and Scott Whitfield playing their asses off.)

 

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jul 05, 2017, 11:08AM4) A noisy room with dozens of other people blasting out excerpts, where you can't hear yourself and can't really tell anything about the way it would play in your own familiar environment.

(And in case of this year's final jazz concert, a noisy room where dozens of people were drinking and talking DURING THE CONCERT where you can't hear Bob McChesney, Bill Watrous, Dick Nash, and Scott Whitfield playing their asses off.)


My favorite reaction to this situation happened in a jazz club here in Calgary when Wycliffe Gordon was playing. After repeated hints/attempts to get the audience to be quiet, he made a simple announcement - "I realize that some people could become upset at being asked to stop talking when the music is playing, but they'll get over it."

It got a great laugh, but unfortunately didn't stop the rudeness from a significant part of the audience. Some people will never figure it out.

Jim Scott

When i attended the ITF Iin Århus 2009 , the bar was " conveniently" placed iinside the room where all  the Jazz concerts took place..  I guess that some  parts of the " legit " community , beleives that drinking and socializing is okay in a room where jazz is played.. Sort of like  adding contentum sounds to  the music.. Some  " legit trombone notabilities " where infact speaking up to be heared over the music.. I remember that Jiggs Whigham appealed to the audience saying that we are just as involved in our music making and deserve to be listened to ( or something to that effect ) .. For future  ITF 's ;  Move the drinking and socializing to the lobby and arrange the jazz concerts in the same rooms as the " legit " ( boy ,i hate that word  ) concerts..!

Trond

In defense of the people who plan ITF's, they're kinda stuck with the venues that are available. In the case of ITF 2017, the venue they used for the big evening concerts (except Friday) was the Memorial Chapel - a big, very church-y hall with theater-style seating (including a balcony). They seem to have been going for a "jazz club" sort of vibe in the Casa Loma Room. Not really their fault if people don't know how to behave in that sort of setting.

Very interested about what people they have tried courtois think about it...
 

Was there anything new in the ITF?

Leif

Outside of ITF and concerts, I thought it was OK to eat and drink and talk while the jazz combo was entertaining you. At a Wycliffe Concert, not cool. When they're playing for tips? It's cool.

Quote from: Dixieland57 on Jul 05, 2017, 03:15PMVery interested about what people they have tried courtois think about it...
 

As far as I could tell there was no Courtois booth... I may have missed them several times though.

I've played the AC420H? The 42 copy with Hagmann valve. Amazing horn.

I have a friend with an AC550 that's pretty good.

Quote from: tbarh on Jul 05, 2017, 01:57PM" legit " ( boy ,i hate that word  ) concerts..!

Trond

I hate it, too, Trond. It has racial connotations (although I'd venture to guess that most people nowadays do not use the term in this manner), and implies that jazz music is both an illegitimate art form and not on par with Western art music.

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jul 05, 2017, 04:27PMAs far as I could tell there was no Courtois booth... I may have missed them several times though.They were near the door, kinda across from the Thein booth and back-to-back with Bertrand's Music.

Quote from: JohnL on Jul 05, 2017, 05:11PMThey were near the door, kinda across from the Thein booth and back-to-back with Bertrand's Music.

Oops!

Any thoughts on any of the small bores?

Thanks

Hope Sabutin look at this post!

Quote from: Dixieland57 on Jul 06, 2017, 03:05AMHope Sabutin look at this post!

I have been following it, but since wasn't there, it's all conjecture as far as I am concerned. I'm a seat of the pants trombonist. I've been fooled too many times...horns with bad reputations that played well and sounded good, the reverse...

So it goes...

S.

Quote from: savio on Jul 05, 2017, 03:33PMWas there anything new in the ITF?The big thing seemed to be the trombones with carbon fiber components. Didn't try them myself, though. I'm not going to buy one for myself, and I'm not qualified to evaluate their playing characteristics for others, so what would be the point in playing one?

Da Carbo?

Quote from: Dixieland57 on Jul 06, 2017, 08:36AMDa Carbo?Among others, though they may be using Da Carbo components.

Thanks man.

Just a question for sabutin, in the past we have talked about trombone you're tested and liked at previous ITF but what about mouthpieces?

I know you play only shires but what brand and size do you play on?

Thanks