New Rath valve?

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WGWTR180
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New Rath valve?

Post by WGWTR180 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:58 am

Just saw a pic of what appears to be a new Rath "rotary" type valve. Saw nothing on their website. Anyone know anything?
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HawaiiTromboneGuy
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by HawaiiTromboneGuy » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:27 am

From Facebook. New valve for his new R6 model. https://www.facebook.com/1529790148/pos ... 36578/?d=n
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Finetales
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by Finetales » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:14 pm

I don't know enough about valve design to know how this differs from a normal rotor. Is it the angles of entry?

Also interested to see what the R6 turns out to be.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by Burgerbob » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:48 pm

I think it's just Mick wanting to make his own valves and not having to source Rotax anymore. Same as Edwards recently.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by WGWTR180 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:52 pm

Burgerbob wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:48 pm
I think it's just Mick wanting to make his own valves and not having to source Rotax anymore. Same as Edwards recently.
You're probably right.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by bbocaner » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:03 pm

The R6 was explained to me as being a new instrument that is designed to appeal to symphony players, and that this valve and a few other unique design elements (such as a tuning slide brace) were towards that end. I don't believe it's intended to replace any of the existing valve options. And while it's a Rath-branded valve, I'd be surprised if the valve itself were manufactured at Rath.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by tbonesullivan » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:40 pm

Looks like what Thein calls "star valves".
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39 Alto, King 2103 / 3b, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, Sterling Perantucci 1056GHS Euphonium, Yamaha YBB-631S Tuba
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by Neo Bri » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:29 pm

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:27 am
From Facebook. New valve for his new R6 model. https://www.facebook.com/1529790148/pos ... 36578/?d=n
I don't really know why, but I love schematics and mock-ups. It's so exciting!
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by Burgerbob » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:48 pm

bbocaner wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:03 pm
And while it's a Rath-branded valve, I'd be surprised if the valve itself were manufactured at Rath.
Even if they aren't manufacturing them themselves, there's no licensing or other costs like with Rotax. Just paying another shop to make their own design. Rotax are crazy expensive.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by Posaunus » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:53 pm

Neo Bri wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:29 pm
I don't really know why, but I love schematics and mock-ups. It's so exciting!
Control yourself, Brian! :pant:
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by Neo Bri » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:54 pm

Posaunus wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:53 pm
Neo Bri wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:29 pm
I don't really know why, but I love schematics and mock-ups. It's so exciting!
Control yourself, Brian! :pant:
It's so weird. It's a thing I noticed fairly recently. I just love schematics! Anyway - back on topic. Sorry!
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by harrisonreed » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:59 pm

Looks like the tubing going into the ports is nice and straight
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by WGWTR180 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:53 am

Just read on FB that these valves will be an option on their basses in the future.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by Kbiggs » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:59 am

These look similar to the Kanstul CR (controlled resistance) valves.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by tbonesullivan » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:06 am

Kbiggs wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:59 am
These look similar to the Kanstul CR (controlled resistance) valves.
I think these are solid core valves though. The CR valves are somewhat hollow on the inside, and aren't milled out from a solid piece of brass like most rotors.

I am going to guess that the smooth approach in the knuckles is key, and it looks like those little "divots" between the ports are probably for internal venting, somewhat like the valve that Yamaha uses on their 822OR.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by bbocaner » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:16 am

Does it look like the valve casing is milled out of a single block of metal rather than being a short section of tubing with ports machined in and knuckles brazed in place? That would be a pretty novel innovation and would explain why the whole valve looks so "chonky," as my daughter would put it.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by tbonesullivan » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:22 am

bbocaner wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:16 am
Does it look like the valve casing is milled out of a single block of metal rather than being a short section of tubing with ports machined in and knuckles brazed in place? That would be a pretty novel innovation and would explain why the whole valve looks so "chonky," as my daughter would put it.
It definitely looks like it. With the wonders of CNC machining it's pretty easy to make just about anything, repeatedly, with computer accuracy. As long as the blades are kept in good shape. We'll have to wait and see, but it definitely looks like it will be interesting.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39 Alto, King 2103 / 3b, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, Sterling Perantucci 1056GHS Euphonium, Yamaha YBB-631S Tuba
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by WGWTR180 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:42 pm

I'm hoping they are not CR valves.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by JonTheCadet » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:44 pm

I think it looks more like this...

https://shop.voigt-brass.de/en/MASTER-I ... 88-FO.html

I find it interesting that not only has Rath made a new valve design, but he has dedicated a whole new line of tenor trombones to this valve - the R6. I spotted a few changes, and perhaps you can find more:

-Single-radius (less square-y), braced tuning slide, no R logo
-Braced attachment

I guess this is Rath's concept of an improved 88H. Conns are generally more favourable than Bachs in the UK (vice versa trumpets). I've met a few conservatoire students and most of them play 88Hs of different vintage - I've only met one who plays a Shires with a 2RVE bell. Perhaps soon Rath will launch an R7 bass trombone with 62H aspects - who knows.

Again, that is all a speculation.

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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by tbonesullivan » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:33 am

That's interesting, but there definitely is an "88h" market in the UK, that's for sure, thanks to Denis Wick.

Though, Conn's definitely Do have a dual radius tuning slide, though not quite as dual radius as the Rath tuning slide.

These are the "star valves" which THein uses sometimes:

https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/0 ... valves.php
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by Neo Bri » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:07 pm

tbonesullivan wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:33 am
That's interesting, but there definitely is an "88h" market in the UK, that's for sure, thanks to Denis Wick.

Though, Conn's definitely Do have a dual radius tuning slide, though not quite as dual radius as the Rath tuning slide.

These are the "star valves" which THein uses sometimes:

https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/0 ... valves.php
Yeah, well...show me the schematics! ^_^
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by Burgerbob » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:38 pm

tbonesullivan wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:33 am
That's interesting, but there definitely is an "88h" market in the UK, that's for sure, thanks to Denis Wick.

Though, Conn's definitely Do have a dual radius tuning slide, though not quite as dual radius as the Rath tuning slide.

These are the "star valves" which THein uses sometimes:

https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/0 ... valves.php
Stomvi has a similar design. The X port shape doesn't have a lot to do with the internals, though.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by bbocaner » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:16 pm

yes, thein star valves have that X shape to the way the ports come out of it, but it's very much made like a traditional valve. I think burgerbob is right that this does outwardly look very similar to the stomvi titan valve.

To me, Rath R4(F) has always played like an 88h. Yes, the tuning slide and slide crook are squared off waaaay more than you'd see on an 88h or even a 42b, but it does have a certain Conn vibe to it.

Rath R3 feels a lot more like a Bach 36 to me, though, even though it shares some components in common with the R4. And the small-bore Raths feel similar to Bachs for sure.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by tbonesullivan » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:35 pm

Burgerbob wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:38 pm
Stomvi has a similar design. The X port shape doesn't have a lot to do with the internals, though.
I wonder what the inside of the Stomvi looks like. It's definitely a large valve. Looks a bunch larger than the Meinlschmidt "Open Flow" valves, which also have some straighter approach angles for the knuckles.

The walls of the Rath design look pretty thick. Are rotor casings usually that beefy?
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39 Alto, King 2103 / 3b, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, Sterling Perantucci 1056GHS Euphonium, Yamaha YBB-631S Tuba
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by bbocaner » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:07 pm

There's a video on the stomvi valve here: https://youtu.be/pNa3f7-OOXo

It has some similarities but appears to have some differences as well.

The big difference about the rath valve is that the first little bit of the "knuckles" seems to be machined into the casing rather than being a bent tube that is brazed in.
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by Fidbone » Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:53 am

And here's the real thing................ :pant:
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Re: New Rath valve?

Post by Neo Bri » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:54 pm

Looks NICE.
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