YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post Reply
marccromme
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:03 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by marccromme » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:05 pm

I was wondering, what are the tonal differences and playing characteristics of these three single valved yammies? Is one of these bassbones preferred, and why? Reason I am asking is that there is a YBL-421 for sale nearby for 980 euro, which I intend to use as a lighter bass bone when I don't need both valves, but might also just wait for a YBL-322 or YBL-321 to appear on the market. Which one is closest to the Conn 72H, which seems to be the inspiration for all three?
walldaja
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:51 pm

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by walldaja » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:56 am

Biggest difference I'm aware of is the 421 is the current production model while the 321 is an earlier production model that has been discontinued. Waiting for a 321 may be waiting for an older horn with more wear and tear on it. The first time I blew a 421 I was impressed with its sound and response. Biggest difference over the 72H is the shape of the wrap (421) in that nothing extends from the horn beyond the main tuning slide (advantage in a tight stage). Like the Conn, it has a narrow slide. The bore is 0.563 vs 0.562 (not sure that is big enough to matter). My 421 is actually lighter than my tenor and I am tempted to use it as much as possible. I've also been impressed with Yamaha's consistency with its horns--they aren't hit and miss trying to find a good one. They all seem to be good. Best wishes!
Dave

Antoine Courtois AC280BO with Christian Lindberg 5CL
Yamaha 421G Bass with Christian Lindberg 2CL / Bach 1 1/2G
Getzen 351 Tenor with Yamaha 48
1967 Olds Ambassador with Christian Lindberg 10CL
Jean Baptiste EUPCOMS with Wedge 5G
User avatar
dukesboneman
Posts: 241
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:40 pm
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Contact:

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by dukesboneman » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:56 am

I play a 321 and Love it !! Great big dark sound.
Really easy to play. I like the Red Brass bell.
I used to own a 72H and did not like the horn, Maybe mine was a dog , but I just couldn`t get it to work for me.
The 321 is a great horn
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 2344
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by BGuttman » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:46 am

My one complaint with the Yamaha wrap (and this is more important on a bass trombone) is that you can't pull to E. On a single bass having capability for an E pull is important. Even pulling both slides on my Yamaha 682 as far as they go doesn't quite make E.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
CalgaryTbone
Posts: 213
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 1:39 pm

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by CalgaryTbone » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:28 am

The 321 wrap (looks like 72H) does pull to E tuning, while the 421 doesn't. Our Bass Trombonist here has a 321 (red bell) that he uses for some lighter music. He has found the E tuning to be useful for pieces that have a rare low B in them. Also, the slide is a bit longer on the 321, like it is on the 72H, which makes an in tune low C at the end of the slide possible. Not sure if the 421 is set up the same.

Jim Scott
marccromme
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:03 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by marccromme » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:05 pm

This is interesting info. Thanks! Seems so far that the 321 has the advantage of an E pull, and the 421 is probably easier to find in good shape. But do they play the same, or is there significant difference in response and tonal color? And I do agree that I never played a Yamaha which was a disappointment so far. My 356G, 682G and 682B are all the very fine tenors. My son's 448 is pretty good too. All the large bore do play well, but have different sound, ordered from dark to bright sound they are 682B, 682G, 448. I assume some similar ordering applies to the single valve bass trombones?
JohntheTheologian
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:44 am

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by JohntheTheologian » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:15 pm

I have a Yamaha YBL-322R that I bought a little over a year ago. The horn was in excellent shape, so it is possible to find standard wrap horns that are still in good shape. I like it very much for playing bass in our big band. The slide on mine is very good and the horn is quite nimble for a bass bone. Having the Conn-like wrap is helpful for the occasional low B natural, but the rest of the low range has a good bass bone tone when played with a standard mouthpiece such as Marcinckewicz GR model ( 1 1/2ish G size). The trigger location is very good for me; more comfortable than some trigger horns that I've tried.

I've never played one of the Yammies with a yellow brass bell, but I very much like the sound the red brass bell gives my horn.
henryTbone
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:52 am
Location: Karlsbad / Germany

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by henryTbone » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:49 am

I own a YBL 322. It has Yellow Brass Bell and outer slide. Inner slide is also yellow brass under the chrome plating, like the older Conns.The plating of the inner slide tubes has some wear spots on the barrel, so one can see the yellow brass like on the older Conns. So in many ways the YBL is a very close copy of an 72h. That is the reason why i bought it.
I like the easy response and the brightness of its tone. Also very Tenor like tone in the upper Registers.I use it for big Band mostly and enjoy playing it very much.
Regarding your Question: the YBL 322 is the closest to a Conn 72H IMHO.

Best Regards
Heinrich
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:24 pm

I have pulled apart and reassembled both vintages (a 1984 YBL-322R and a 2014 YBL-421G). Along with rebuilding them, I attempted to play-test them extensively (before and after the rebuild) and take measurements on components of the horn. I rebuilt these horns a couple months apart from each other, so my observations were not a "same time" direct comparison, but pretty close. I know most people think "what kind of nerd does this?" For me, it is quite fascinating and gets me closer to answering one of life's big questions...."why does this particular instrument play this particular way?"

Keep in mind that for many years in the 1900s, Yamaha occasionally updated things in their trombone line without changing the model designation. It would not be surprising to find two YBL-321 trombones (built from 1969-79) with different measurements at places like the gooseneck, the main tuning slide or even the bell taper. Another common occurrence was to find one 321 with nickel-silver on a connecting ferrule and another 321 that had a brass ferrule in that same location. Why mention this?.....Yamahas that share the same model number could potentially play very differently. Of course, this is true of any instrument brand or model.

Fortunately about 25 years ago, the Yamaha company adopted "consistency" as one of their major manufacturing goals. Now, if they change anything on one of their instruments, they designate it with an entirely new model number. It's a good policy and it makes it so much easier to find proper replacement parts!

Here are some things that I have seen in the 1984 YBL-322R and the 2014 YBL-421G:

*The slide was slightly longer on the 322R, making 7th position and 7th+ (low C) smoother to use. However, I remember that the 322R felt slightly front-heavy and unbalanced.
*Unfortunately I did not take measurements on the width of the handslide, so I cannot compare the two models. I do know that the 421G has a more narrow slide (Conn style). I don't have measurements on the 322R slide width. I cannot assume that the 322R had a narrow slide as well because I have seen some 1980s 612 and 613 models with some rather wide (Bach width) slides!
*Both bass trombones had brass cork barrels and sustained considerable pitting damage from the palm and finger tips of the left hand. This is a notable design weakness because the 421G was only 4 years old at the time I worked with it. Using a nickel-silver cork barrel could have resulted in a more sustainable finish.
*Both bass trombones had two-piece leadpipes (mouthpiece receiver soldered to a leadpipe). The measurements of the venturi (most narrow spot) of the leadpipe were within a .002 (almost identical). Converting either model to a removable leadpipe is not a simple/cheap modification because it would require replacing the top inner slide tube.
*The rotor cores, rotor casings and valve caps were identical on both models.
*The F-attachment on the 421G was slightly more free-blowing than the 322R. Even though the 421G had a more open wrap, the fact that the final piece of F-attachment tubing came in to a 180 degree turn in the valve probably negated the majority of the benefits of what Yamaha calls its "modified open wrap." One would expect a more significant difference, but I noted that the 421G F-attachment was only slightly less resistant.
*The measurements on the main tuning slides were very different. The 322R was very similar to the Conn 72H....on the small side, especially when compared to many modern bass trombones. The large side of the 421G main tuning slide was much larger (over .025"). Thus, the beginning of the bell stem on the 421 was much larger than the 321R.
*The red brass on the 322R was hardened and it was difficult to remove dents from it. This could have been by design because red brass horns are known to have "soft as putty" metal. Sometimes manufacturers temper the higher-copper alloys to make the metal harder, which helps the instrument have crisper articulations. The 421G metal was a typical gold brass hardness/softness and was easy to work with.

How did the horns play?

I think the articulations on both instruments were very similar.....probably due to the almost identical leadpipes. Both horns also had great ease of playing in a similar comfort zone.....from pp to mf. In my opinion, both instruments were tricky to play in the mf-fff dynamic range. When playing very loud, tonguing without the sound breaking apart on both instruments required extra focus and the sound got brighter and edgier with volume. However, the 421G definitely had the advantage in the loud dynamics. For me, the sound held together better on the 421G as I approached ff and fff. My theory is that the larger exit diameter of the main tuning slide and the larger diameter at the top of the bell stem resulted in a horn with easier loud notes. The high A-flat on the 322R was almost unplayable.....breaking apart when played at mf or louder. Thinking that this could have been me and not the instrument, I allowed a few other pro players to try the 322R. Same results......the high A-flat was not a cooperative note. Again as state above, the high A-flat could have been something very exclusive to that particular 322R.

For me, the YBL-421G was a better player. While the YBL-322R would have served well in a big band, the 421G was a more diverse instrument. I would have felt very comfortable playing the 421G in a big band, concert band or chamber group. I would have also played it in an orchestra, but only if the program did not have any heavy-slugging works! Another huge advantage to the 421G is the availability of parts for repairs. This is due to the fact that it is a current model in production and that modern Yamaha horns will not change parts without designating the instrument as a new model. In other words, if you order a specific part for a 421G, you have a 99% chance that the part will fit.

Brian Hinkley
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
marccromme
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:03 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by marccromme » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:28 pm

Brian, this is a very thorough write up of your knowledge, thanks for sharing! Much appreciated. I see if I can test ride the YBL-421 which is for sale here in DK. I will end with a full set of jammies ..
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:26 pm

I hope that one works well for you. If it has mechanical issues but you like the sound and response, you could probably find a good used one here in the states. It seems to be one of the “horns of choice” for students who want to try bass trombone. Many college-aged kids sell their 421Gs in order to finance the move to a double trigger horn. Thus, there seems to be a constant supply of used 421Gs on the market.
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
marccromme
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:03 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by marccromme » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:51 am

Importing from the US to DK is often not worth the hassle, as there is a substantial cost in shipping and insurance, and in addition 30% import tax and VAT, on both the used sales price and transportation cost. Plus a tax handling fee. In total, one must consider about 55% price increase. Better to wait for an instrument here in the EU
User avatar
ArbanRubank
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:50 am

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by ArbanRubank » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:25 am

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:26 pm
I hope that one works well for you. If it has mechanical issues but you like the sound and response, you could probably find a good used one here in the states. It seems to be one of the “horns of choice” for students who want to try bass trombone. Many college-aged kids sell their 421Gs in order to finance the move to a double trigger horn. Thus, there seems to be a constant supply of used 421Gs on the market.
I bought a brand-new Yamaha 421G off eBay from Quinn. It had never been played and yet was very steeply discounted. After thoroughly examining it, I pronounced it gig-ready straight from the case. And for what I want, a single trigger is satisfactory.

Coupled with a Bach 1.5G, I think the sound is terrific, and it appears to be a pretty easy blow. I don't have any trouble getting low pedals with attack and yet I can play GSOY in D in concert pitch with not too much trouble. I wouldn't state that I have super chops, so my conclusion is that it must be a very versatile horn.

The only thing I find I have to get used to when I switch from my Yamaha 620 large-bore to the 421G, is that it feels nose-heavy in my hands. More so than I would like. But after a few minutes, I make the adjustment. And as is typical with me with a new horn, I have to raise up yet another callus on my thumb. But that's not to say there is a problem ergonomically, it just takes getting used to - as all my other horns always have. Actually, I find the weight of it all-in-all to be fairly comparable with my Yamaha 620. Go figure.

Anyway, the above aren't endorsements, they are observations on my part and your's may differ. I also like how mellow the sound is when I play it softly and OBTW I can play this horn very, very softly. Being a smaller, older guy - I have to play it softly if I want to make the phrases in say, Rochut. Yet, I also find I can spank out notes when I want. Again, not a statement of my abilities so much as a statement of the horn's characteristics that I enjoy when playing it. Glad I bought it. This is my fourth Yamaha and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I have gained confidence in the consistency of their build.

I can not address the differences between the 421G and the other horns the OP has listed, and I hope I haven't muddied up the waters.
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 197
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:38 pm

Tim seems to have given a great endorsement to the 421G, especially since he is able to directly compare it to a professional 620 model. Sorry to hear that importing from the US is so expensive. Real bummer since there are usually multiple used 421Gs for sale at any given time. I hope the one in Denmark is a great horn!
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
Bach5G
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by Bach5G » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:32 pm

Tim: 620 tenor or 620 bass?
User avatar
ArbanRubank
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:50 am

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by ArbanRubank » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:45 pm

Bach5G wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:32 pm
Tim: 620 tenor or 620 bass?
I play a 610 tenor (Bach 5G) and a 620 tenor (Bach 3G) and a 421G single bass (Bach 1.5G). I would someday like to add a beautiful 356R medium tenor. But I just bought the 421G, so I better cool it a while [sigh].

To my knowledge, the bass you are inquiring about is a 620G designation and is a double-rotor. I would love to have one of those as well. I believe they are the ones that can easily be converted to a single trigger.

For some reason, Yamaha designates a couple of their horns "student" or "intermediate" - as with their 354 and 421G, even though they can and often are used on a professional level.
Bach5G
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:10 pm

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by Bach5G » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:53 pm

620 bass not convertible. 622 maybe.
Posaunus
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by Posaunus » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:37 pm

Apparently there was also a YBL-621 Yamaha single-valve bass trombone with a closed wrap with E-pull capability. If I am correct, it was an upgrade from, though similar to, the Yamaha YBL-321. I have a YBL-421G (from ~2003) which has a completely different wrap (and no E-pull).

Does anyone here know anything about the 621 (when it was manufactured, its specifications, differences from the 321, etc.)? :idk:

For that matter (since I know little about Yamaha trombones) – are the 322 and 622 double-valve versions of the 321 and 621, respectively? :???:

Thanks for educating me! :clever:
Kevbach33
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 10:00 pm

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by Kevbach33 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:09 pm

Posaunus wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:37 pm
Apparently there was also a YBL-621 Yamaha single-valve bass trombone with a closed wrap with E-pull capability. If I am correct, it was an upgrade from, though similar to, the Yamaha YBL-321. I have a YBL-421G (from ~2003) which has a completely different wrap (and no E-pull).

Does anyone here know anything about the 621 (when it was manufactured, its specifications, differences from the 321, etc.)? :idk:

For that matter (since I know little about Yamaha trombones) – are the 322 and 622 double-valve versions of the 321 and 621, respectively? :???:

Thanks for educating me! :clever:
The 321, 322 and 621 were all single valve horns with traditional wrap that were succeeded by one model, the 421G.

While not direct equivalents the double-valved variants of the time were the 611/612 (dependent) and 613 (independent). These were replaced by the current 620G and the 613H (which in turn was retired in favor of the 830 Xeno).

The 622 is completely unrelated and was developed with Doug Yeo. Its successor is the 822 Xeno.

Like all Yamaha winds the 32x were marketed as student instruments, 421G intermediate and 6xx professional.

As for specific differences and timelines, I can't say anything as i know not. I guess physical differences could lie in how much nickel silver is used in each. Someone please correct me if I'm dead wrong.
Posaunus
Posts: 987
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by Posaunus » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:41 pm

Kevbach33 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:09 pm

The 321, 322 and 621 were all single valve horns with traditional wrap that were succeeded by one model, the 421G.

While not direct equivalents the double-valved variants of the time were the 611/612 (dependent) and 613 (independent). These were replaced by the current 620G and the 613H (which in turn was retired in favor of the 830 Xeno).

The 622 is completely unrelated and was developed with Doug Yeo. Its successor is the 822 Xeno.

Like all Yamaha winds the 32x were marketed as student instruments, 421G intermediate and 6xx professional.
Kevbach,

Thanks for the information. Apparently the 621 was a souped up ("professional") version of the "student" 321.
From what I can discern, these instruments were probably made in the 1980s-1990s?

Yamaha's numbering system confuses me.
sgreatwood
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:06 pm

Re: YBL-421 YBL-321 YBL-322 differences ?

Post by sgreatwood » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:42 am

The original 321 was not marketed as a student trombone - simply as THE Yamaha Bass Trombone. I've played a Bronze bell 321 since the mid 90s (although it now has a Shires independent valve section). Brian's mentioned that the 322 and 421 have the same valve. I have to assume then, that the main difference between the 321 & 322 is the valve. The 321 valve is about the diameter of a ball-point pen... Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but it's waaaay smaller than the valve on my Bach 36/42 and Conn 88H. It's quite tight.

My high school had a 322R that I just didn't gel with the sound but love the punch I can get on the Commercial Bronze Bell.

Simon
Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”