TromboneChat

Hi tc-community,

Right now, I'm searching for technical details, pictures, descriptions, experiences regarding the design of a TIS/tuning-in-slide mechanism. My search for "old" descriptions like I've found them a few years ago wasn't succesfull
Why am I searching for this?
On my 60h, alignment-issues occur frequently and my "slide doctor" in Berlin, Germany, said that maybe having the screw that adjusts the tuning only on one side of the slide tubing causes this problem (partly). So I remembered ahving read about the "opera wheel" and I'm now wondering if I should ask the slide-doc to install a similar mechanism which uses an additional brace on the lower (moveable) part of the outer slide and a "centered" locking system.

My question: Do you have any (well-founded) advice? Do you have pictures and/or drafts of such a system? Did you test-play a greenhoe tis-basstrombone so you were able to check, if their version works well (also using an additional brace as far as i saw on pictures).

Thanks a lot in advance,
Julian

PD: I'm very happy someone told me the trombone-chat-forum existed (since I missed tromboneforum a lot).

Larry Minick did this work on a 62h I owned. Slide was very stable and easy to use.

Yeah, the 60h TIS is prone to racking because it doesn't connect the two sides. But it's light. The Greenhoe appears to use a similar system to the older 70h, which had 2 extra braces, the opera wheel and a long screw. But it's heavy. The Kanstul TIS adds only one brace, and is somewhere between the 60h and 70h/Greenhoe in complexity, stiffness and weight.

I've also got an Olds TIS, which is very heavy. I prefer the Kanstul, which is easiest to use and reasonably light. Greenhoe may make multiple types, but the 2-brace opera wheel is the only one I'm familiar with.

https://images.app.goo.gl/XuG6cXjg27n6NhqF8

https://www.thebrass-exchange.com/sites ... k=0CUhDV2u

http://fixturesmusicalinstruments.com/w ... _02_eu.jpg

Here is Earl Williams' patent for a center screw TIS mechanism:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1782452?oq=1782452

It works pretty well. It's essentially the same idea as Greenhoe (which, in turn, is quite similar to the Conn "Opera Wheel"), but uses nuts on either side of the brace rather than a single nut in a slot in the brace.

The Olds system is quite sturdy, but is also heavy (part of that is just that it's built heavy).

Here are a few examples
From top down -
1. Greenhoe bass - Conn version
2. early 30's Conn tenor opera wheel - 82h
3. mid-century Conn bass w/ side-screw - 60h - Jeff Reynolds' old Fuchs slide

They can all work well or not, the trick is to have it built well and correctly.

I've never owned a TIS horn. I've played a few at conferences but not for long enough.

So I have a question for you who use them. How often do you adjust that mechanism?

I ask because I never move my tuning slide. On all my horns I push them all the way in and tune with the hand slide. So does the alignment problem occur because of adjustment, or is it the result of normal slide motion and inertia?

On a properly lubed slide that is aligned it shouldn't matter. The things that can "rack" the mechanism in your case are slamming the slide into 1st or fighting a terribly sticky (or dented) slide.

That said, the two TIS instruments I play are a Conn 40H with the Opera Wheel and a 1925 Olds that has a curved brace for the screw. Both are much more resistant to being "racked".

I have always wondered, so I will ask here.

There is a tube inside the slide handle tube that is not all the way to the edge of the slide. Does this lip catch when you go out to the end of the slide? How much shorter is the slide then the handle inside?

timothy42b wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:20 amSo does the alignment problem occur because of adjustment, or is it the result of normal slide motion and inertia?

I think it's more the result of adjustment. I have one TIS horn with no brace on the lower slide; any time I make an adjustment, I take care to try to apply force evenly to both upper and lower tubes.

whitbey wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:59 am I have always wondered, so I will ask here.

There is a tube inside the slide handle tube that is not all the way to the edge of the slide. Does this lip catch when you go out to the end of the slide? How much shorter is the slide then the handle inside?

On all my TIS horns there is an oversleeve that slides on the outer tube. The outer tube never comes out the front of the oversleeve, which contains the slide lock cam and a ring to keep from cutting your hand. Generally if you push the TIS mechanism totally closed the outer tube will be flush with the oversleeve or somewhat recessed.

whitbey wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:59 am I have always wondered, so I will ask here.

There is a tube inside the slide handle tube that is not all the way to the edge of the slide. Does this lip catch when you go out to the end of the slide? How much shorter is the slide then the handle inside?

The inside tube is the same length as the outside tube which is the same length as the stocking. So there is only as much gap as the length of the adjustment you make for tuning. It doesn't catch on the end of the slide while you play, if that's what you're asking.

whitbey wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:59 am I have always wondered, so I will ask here.

There is a tube inside the slide handle tube that is not all the way to the edge of the slide. Does this lip catch when you go out to the end of the slide? How much shorter is the slide then the handle inside?

Makes it 2% trickier to get the outer slide on the inner slide. Never causes any issue for me. Look at full extension, you still have a couple of inches of slide on the stocking. On a TIS horn, that is ~1/2-1" less. Not an issue.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:20 am timothy42b wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:20 am
So does the alignment problem occur because of adjustment, or is it the result of normal slide motion and inertia?

First, I move the tuning on my TIS slide more than I ever do my bell tuning slides. Mine is still new enough that I have never had and alignment issue. If they have had to have repairs and the tuning slides don't move well... That could be a problem. The slide that I had mine built from had a lot of damage. Not great, hard to move. On a TIS horn, the tuning slide needs to be aligned and move like a hand slide, or it will cause issues.

Cheers,
Andy

Great photo and explanations!

Seems it is just like over-sleeves that move.

Thanks very much for detailed pics and estimates - very helpful!

Did anyone play a horn before and after installing a third "bar" for the tuning-mechanism in the lower part of the outer slide? I wonder how that would change the playing characteristics of the horn.
I attached a pic of a 62h similar to mine without the third bar - in case my english was too bad to explain what i mean.

whitbey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:05 pm Great photo and explanations!

Seems it is just like over-sleeves that move.

Exactly. Unsoldered oversleeves with a restraining mechanism and stiffener.

whitbey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:05 pm Great photo and explanations!

Seems it is just like over-sleeves that move.

Yup. A few years back, I applied the basic concept to repairing a conventional slide with bad red rot at the end of the outers. I had the tech cut off the rotted ends and then compensate for the loss of length by shifting the (soldered-on) oversleeves.

I've had both wheelhouse and single side. The 20's horns do have bracing across the tubes, the 35H and 62 do not. I could see where the latter would be more prone to misalignment. My TIS's slides work great and are as fast as a lightweight slide- with more inertia- just release and catch it at the next slide position!

timbone wrote: ↑Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:51 am I've had both wheelhouse and single side. The 20's horns do have bracing across the tubes, the 35H and 62 do not. I could see where the latter would be more prone to misalignment. My TIS's slides work great and are as fast as a lightweight slide- with more inertia- just release and catch it at the next slide position!

And I thought that I had too many old horns...

Speculating that the dropping of the crossbar in the 62H was more about saving money than making the slide lighter...

If it ain't broke......its all been done and there is no right or wrong way.

@timbone: What an amazing collection of TIS-Horns. Could you tell me, from right to left, which models are on the pic? (Right must be 62H). Is one of them sized like a 8H?
And is it still possible to find them somewhere?

Sure- '66 35H alto, '24 18H Tait model, '24 82H (.522 bore) '21 70H, '70 62H. I haven't found the TIS 8H size, but I do have an 8H ('59) and an 88H ('63). The 8H I have is pretty worn but it plays amazing! All these horns found me BTW!

Keep checking the usual places...they pop up from time to time. Good luck!