Two G's. Same but different.

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PaulT
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Two G's. Same but different.

Post by PaulT » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:47 pm

The G above the staff.

As part of my warm up, I will play the high G in 2nd position and in 4th (Edwards lip slurs). G in second is clear right off the bat, but when I first do the G in 4th, it flutters. I have to fiddle around and work at it for awhile before it comes as easily and clearly as the 2nd position G did right away. Why would a 4th position high G require more work to hit cleanly than the 2nd position high G? Is it me, my horn, or is it just a trombone thing/
imsevimse
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by imsevimse » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:36 am

1. It is another partial on the horn on fourth compared to the one on second. The high Ab on third is a problem note to a lot of younger players and the G on fourth has the same partial number. What about F# on fifth and F on sixth and E on seventh? All those are that same partial on the horn and they can give many players a hard time.

2 One other thing is they are not practiced enough. Often we only practice the Bb, A and the Ab of that partial number and the rest only when we really need to because of tricky slide combinations. At that time when we discover we need them then we might not have practiced them enough and they will then give us problems because we are not used to play them.

3 The third reason is it is more tubing involved the further we move the slide. I do not know the laws about physics about this. Do someone know if the resistance will change when we extend the tube? I do not think of it much when I play but to me it is logical that even though we are just interested in making the air in the tube to vibrate, the way we are doing it might be affected by resistance because of increased length somehow. If that resistance change does something to the blow then that could be the third reason. It's a good question for a physicist.

/Tom
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by Doug Elliott » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:00 am

I have known players who habitually play that G in 4th.
I don't think I have ever actually used it in 4th outside of an exercise.... maybe.
hyperbolica
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by hyperbolica » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:12 am

The more you use that note in that position, the easier it will be. John Swallow taught alternate positions like gospel. G in 4th is just another place to get that note to get a national break or avoid moving the slide.

Also you might check your intonation in that position. If the G in your head doesn't match the note your horn is trying to make, it won't come out right.
AndrewMeronek
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by AndrewMeronek » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:30 am

One common reason for unstable notes is to not have the slide in the 'right' position for what pitch we want to hear. Fractions of an inch can make a difference. And yes, some horns just have bad notes. I haven't heard of one with a bad 4th position G4, though.
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

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norbie2018
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by norbie2018 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:01 am

Ditto having the correct position. My low e valves in second-ish position weren't speaking cleanly until I checked it with a tuner and found myself playing flat. Once I put the slide in the right place it was MUCH better.
Last edited by norbie2018 on Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pre59
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by Pre59 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:36 am

PaulT wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:47 pm
Why would a 4th position high G require more work to hit cleanly than the 2nd position high G? Is it me, my horn, or is it just a trombone thing/
What type of horn and m/p are you using? On my old Bach 12, the alt notes around 3rd/4th position where treacherous to say the least.
On my my small K+H I can use positions 1 through to 6 for higher partials, the tone changes slightly as the slide lengthens, but for playing faster patterns it's not so important.
PaulT
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by PaulT » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:58 pm

Yamaha 620, Bach 5G.

The fluttering is due to me, not the horn. The G is pretty close to the top of my useful range. Ok, the high G is the top of my useful range. Moving the G out to 4th position probably requires just a little bit more controlled air or something (as there is a longer horn involved) and it exposes me. Dropping back to smaller mouthpiece, like a Yamaha 48 or Yamaha 51B (shallow cup) clears up the note right away. Same deal if I go to a smaller horn (Yamaha 891 with Bach 6.5 AL).

The 4th position G is coming. When I'm warmed up, but not too warmed up, it's there. It's just not always there, like the 2nd position G is. Interestingly, it's easier for me to play a high Bb (1st position) cleanly than the 4th position G.

Fortunately, I don't need to play G in 4th. I do play the high F in 4th every so often (Bordogni) and that works really well for me and is useful. High Ab (3d position) when under pressure (instructor sitting next to me) is a 50/50 deal.
Pre59
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by Pre59 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:12 pm

It sound more like an issue of range at the moment, and because I don't know how long you've been playing I'm reluctant
to offer you any advice. My range/flexibilities ex's are all in my head, but I'm sure that a TC member who's up to date on contemporary practice materials will be along soon.
PaulT
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by PaulT » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:13 pm

[ignore everything I said below about partials. it is all wrong. actually, most of the post can be ignored.]


I asked my instructor about it today during a break in our lesson. She said play it, and of course, the stars were aligned and I hit it nice and clean. But she did say, as others have in this thread, that G above the staff was the fourth partial while Bb above the staff, while a higher note, was the third partial. And that could be why I usually found it easier to hit the Bb cleanly.

At this point I don't want to hold her responsible for anything more I say on this topic as I barely followed what she was saying and my recall is suspect, but it sounded like a 4th partial that high up was a slightly tricker horn deal than a third partial and what I called a "flutter" she called "double buzzing", or that's what I think she said.

I will stop now as the ice is getting thin. I am not worried about me or my horn. I'll just keep at it steady as she goes.

[interjection: are the notes I'm talking about, the Bb above the staff and the G above the staff, called B3 and G4, with the 3 and the 4 referring to the respective partials? Or am I off track?]
Last edited by PaulT on Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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BGuttman
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by BGuttman » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:39 pm

The B3 and G4 have nothing to do with partials.

The C above the bass staff is called C4. The note just below it is B3 and the note just above it is C#4. C an octave lower is C3 and C an octave higher is C5. Why do they change on C? That's the formality. It makes more sense to change on A, but that's not what happens.

So the note you are talking about is G4. Bb above it is Bb4;

Partials relate to the notes you can play in one position. For example, pedal Bb is the 1st partial. Bb in the bass staff is the 2nd partial. F in the bass staff is the 3rd partial. Bb on top of the staff is the 4th partial. D above the staff is the 5th partial. F above the staff is the 6th partial. The very flat Ab in 1st is the 7th partial, and Bb 4 lines above the bass staff is the 8th partial. G in sharp 2nd is the 7th partial and G in 4th (same note) is the 8th partial.

There is a lot of physics that explains all of what I have presented, but I don't want to write a textbook here. For now just take it on faith.
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AndrewMeronek
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by AndrewMeronek » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:39 am

Cool, sounds like you're on the right path. :good:
PaulT wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:58 pm
Fortunately, I don't need to play G in 4th. I do play the high F in 4th every so often (Bordogni) and that works really well for me and is useful. High Ab (3d position) when under pressure (instructor sitting next to me) is a 50/50 deal.
Just be careful about slide positions. Most of us consider "4th position" high F to actually be "3-1/2 position". Actually, 4th position in that general range needs to be considered only a guideline, not a consistent position. D, F, and G are all in noticeably different spots even though in books they're either "4th position" or "3-1/2" position. It can help to check your pitch (and hence your slide position) against a reference pitch, as with an electric keyboard, some tuning apps on phones, or a tone generator on the internet, or a drone on Youtube if you can find one of the correct pitch.
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

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Pre59
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by Pre59 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:08 am

Paul T,

Which exercise in the Bordogni are you referring to? I've recently bought a Rochut, the Ralph/Carl Fisher edition.
timothy42b
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by timothy42b » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:10 pm

Consider another possibility. As you move your slide out, it is easy to inadvertently move your hand to the right, altering the pressure on your chops.
PaulT
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by PaulT » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:22 pm

edited
Last edited by PaulT on Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
PaulT
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by PaulT » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:23 pm

Pre59 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:08 am
Paul T,

Which exercise in the Bordogni are you referring to? I've recently bought a Rochut, the Ralph/Carl Fisher edition.
#1 I have the Bordogni Complete Vocalises for Trombone, edited by Michael Mulcahy, published Encore Music. I don't know if measure markings or arrangements differ across the various Bordogni editions (meaning I just don't know. period.)

#2. Of all the folks on this forum, I am probably the last you should be getting Bordogni tips from.

But, to your question, I started using a 4th position F (really a 3.5 or so as Andrew mentioned) on Borgdoni's #7. (it might have been useful earlier, I don't know as I only started using it with #7).

- Measures 23, 58 & 62 have C,F,C,F intervals above the staff that work nicely in positions 3/4/3/4. Smoth, tight slide action.

- Measure #29 has a pair of triplets that play nicely 3/4/3/ 4/3/4. Again, nice tight slide action.

You can play a whole lot of #7 in positions 3 and 4. (bearing mind that the Eb above the staff is a slightly long 3 and the F above the staff is a short 4.
Last edited by PaulT on Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
PaulT
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by PaulT » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:30 pm

My best Bordogni tip:

Go to Youtube and listen to Toby Oft play Bordogni. I run his videos through a powered speaker and play along.

Later of course, I leave recordings behind and make Bordogni my own (and nearly unrecognizable).
GMB
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by GMB » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:39 am

I think when most of us learn to play around middle b flat and above in the lower/primary positions we get comfortable with a more approximate blowing of the note which we are allowed vs playing them in alternates where the other partials and notes are closer together. This is why I don't think it's at all unusual for a g in fourth to be harder to hit than a g in close second. For a similar reason I don't think it's peculiar that the high b flat is easier for you than the g in fourth... you didn't have the chance to learn to play it on a relatively easier partial (like the g in close 2nd) because it simply isn't a possibility. You learn the g in second and get comfortable, but with the g in fourth you have to be more precise hitting it.

I do think that learning to play certain notes in alternate positions can help us with tone quality (and to an extent endurance) when playing them in their "primary" positions. I know a long while ago when I spent some time getting good quality mid-b flats in fifth and d's and f's in "fourth" those same notes in their primary positions started sounding better.

As to actually using a high g in fourth I'm pretty sure I only ever use it if I'm jumping up an octave. I have however noticed that the first two chairs of the NY Phil. play the Dvorak 9 theme (first movement) differently so some people may find g in fourth more useful than me.
PaulT
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Re: Two G's. Same but different.

Post by PaulT » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:32 pm

GMB wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:39 am
... You learn the g in second and get comfortable, but with the g in fourth you have to be more precise hitting it.

I do think that learning to play certain notes in alternate positions can help us with tone quality (and to an extent endurance) when playing them in their "primary" positions...
In my case, at least, I have to call BINGO on this one. (I would have quoted the entire post, but as it's right there above me, it seemed kind of silly).

The G in fourth started clearing up a couple days ago and today it popped nice and clean my first whack at it. And everything above it was clear and easy up to Bb. B was futzy but C came out with a nice clear ring. So, yes, the time I spent trying clean up the G in 4th does seem to have benefited the guys above it. I may never need it... or want it... but it appears it was worth working on.

(I guess it's all worth working on. ;)

Thanks to all that posted. I enjoy this forum and it has been helpful.
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