Dumb questions about basses

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Mon May 22, 2017 9:39 am

First dumb question. Has anyone used an Eb slide on a single valve bass?

Second dumb question. Isn't there some sort of plug-in valve kit? Why aren't there more plug-in valves.

Third dumb question. Why doesn't anyone make an honest to goodness small bass that doesn't scare tenor players? Two valves or a removable valve like the Yamaha 620, 547/562 bore slide, 9" bell. Lots of horns have elements of this config, but no one really gets it with small basses.

ttf_Sliphorn · Post by **ttf_Sliphorn** » Mon May 22, 2017 9:45 am

I'm pretty sure people have used every possible combination, and eventually settled on F/Gb/D and F/G/Eb.

Yes, plugins do exist. I think the reason there aren't more is because today the vast majority of basses are built as dual-valve from the ground up.

Small basses...Have a look at the Holton TR-159. There is one for sale on the forum right now. Very cool horns, in my opinion. I even considered picking it up (I like Holtons) but decided that cash is too tight at the moment.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon May 22, 2017 9:58 am

Older single valve basses had one tuning slide that can be pulled out to retune the attachment to E or a flat E. This gives low B way out on the end of the slide. At one time the attachments were actually made in E. I have a reference to such instruments in a 100 year old trombone method by Carl Hampe (of the Boston Symphony). Could you have a crook made so the attachment is in Eb? Sure. Anything is possible with money. If it was more useful than the F, I'm sure we'd all be playing them (hint, hint).

Plug-in 2nd valves were a development of the mid 20th century. They were supplanted by double valve instruments almost immediately since the mechanics of working with a valve located at the end of the tuning slide of the F-attachment are pretty horrendous. First double valve basses effectively made for a "quick E-pull" being about a position long. Then we discovered that an Eb second valve could be more useful and finally that a D second valve is even more useful. First double valve basses were dependent (again, concept of a "quick E-pull"). Then somebody made an independent and many of us found that instrument to be even more useful.

There are large tenor/small bass instruments. The Yamaha YBL-321 is one such. The King 5B and Holton TR-159 are also useful as "starter basses".

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon May 22, 2017 10:02 am

Quote from: jackbird on May 22, 2017, 09:39AMFirst dumb question. Has anyone used an Eb slide on a single valve bass?

Second dumb question. Isn't there some sort of plug-in valve kit? Why aren't there more plug-in valves.

Third dumb question. Why doesn't anyone make an honest to goodness small bass that doesn't scare tenor players? Two valves or a removable valve like the Yamaha 620, 547/562 bore slide, 9" bell. Lots of horns have elements of this config, but no one really gets it with small basses.

First question... yes. You end up having to shift the slide around a lot with the loss of 6th and 7th alternatives on the valve. I have an Eb slide for my single Rath.
Second .. slot in valves used to blow less well than regular second valves. Yamaha solved that but they are just not popular. I just made a slot in for a former student who wants to use his Conn 60H all the time.
Third... a small bass... yes it could be useful if a really top level one was produced.

Chris Stearn

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon May 22, 2017 10:08 am

Quote from: jackbird on May 22, 2017, 09:39AMSecond dumb question. Isn't there some sort of plug-in valve kit? Why aren't there more plug-in valves.I think one of the main reasons the plug-in valve concept never really caught on is that the linkage ends up being less than ideal.

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Mon May 22, 2017 10:44 am

Conn's 88HK is supposed to be a "tenorbaß" trombone, that is, a bridge between the first and bass trombone for the modern, large-bore instruments. According to specs, it has a 9" bell with a larger throat, and 547/562 dual-bore slide. I think King's 5B, which supercedes the 88HK by 30-40 years, was intended for the same purpose. Edwards and Shires also have dual-bore slides available, and their bass slides fit their large bore tenor instruments. At one time both Edwards and Shires listed 9" bells as a custom option; I don't know whether they have a different shape, i.e., a larger throat.

Kanstul made (makes?) a single bass with an optional slot-in valve. I haven't played it, but the reports I've heard are what Chris describes is the case with most slot-in instruments, whether it's Holtons, Kanstuls, customs: useful in a pinch, but not optimal for long-term use.

I have found this kind of tenorbaß instrument useful in limited circumstances: smaller or reduced orchestras where the 1st and 2nd use smaller instruments, where lower dynamics are necessary, and where clarity is needed over volume. Of course, other people who play a lot more than me could, I'm sure, list other times they've used such an instrument, or perhaps wished they had one...

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Mon May 22, 2017 11:07 am

An Eb valve would give you a single valve fully chromatic instrument. Chris seems to get it.

Yeah, a plug-in is a workaround for non-chromatic horn, not really a great idea, but the Yamaha solution looks good.

Yeah, all those 9" tenors are missing second valves and/or chromatic capability, but otherwise look good.

ttf_Terraplane8Bob · Post by **ttf_Terraplane8Bob** » Mon May 22, 2017 11:52 am

I've owned a Conn 70H since about 1964 that has an early solution for a "fast E pull". The serial number puts it in the early 1930's. All of the valve tubing is neatly [and tightly] coiled inside the gooseneck of the instrument. There is an "E" valve located centrally which is actuated by reaching back and turning a knob to switch from "F" to "E". This isn't useful for the Bartok glissando because when you arrive in first position you end up with an "E" instead of the written "F". After a few years of ownership I hired Walter Lawson [of Lawson French Horn fame] to design and build a mechanism to actuate the "E" valve with my left thumb instead of the original knob setup. He very cleverly designed a side-by-side trigger arrangement with a feature designed to keep the two trigger levers parallel even when the "E" slide had to be pulled for tuning purposes. He placed a turnbuckle in the actuating rod to regulate its length and put a stop mechanism on the "E" slide so that it would remain in position no matter how vigorously the trigger was actuated. To this day it is some of the finest custom work I've ever seen. I'd post photos but evidently the TTF photo files are maxed out. The mystery to me is : What was the original intent for the "knob" setup ? Just being able to play a low "B" ? Observations welcomed. Cheers !! Bob

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Mon May 22, 2017 2:00 pm

Quote from: jackbird on May 22, 2017, 09:39AMFirst dumb question. Has anyone used an Eb slide on a single valve bass?

Second dumb question. Isn't there some sort of plug-in valve kit? Why aren't there more plug-in valves.

Third dumb question. Why doesn't anyone make an honest to goodness small bass that doesn't scare tenor players? Two valves or a removable valve like the Yamaha 620, 547/562 bore slide, 9" bell. Lots of horns have elements of this config, but no one really gets it with small basses.
Eb valve gives you a Bb in T1, the same Bb you get in one, so you lose the T1 C and T2 B natural. You then end up with needing to go out to 7th for E natural, and if you wanted to get down to Eb you'd have to go all the way to T1. Having just Eb would pretty much knock out a lot of the advantages of having the valve, aside form extended range.

I think the second two questions are somewhat tied together: the trombone community moved past those ideas. Plug in valves definitely were tried, but most were designed to changed to work with an F-attachment that was not really designed for it. The geometry is awkward, and this causes the valve throw to suffer. Having the two valves stacked or inline produces much better valve linkage geometry and ergonomics.

Only a trombone specifically designed for function as a single or double, like the Yamaha YBL-622 and YBL-822, the Doug Yeo models, are really able to accomplish this well. For the most part though, it's not an option they really care about, which is why you don't see many.

Kanstul developed a slot in valve for their George Roberts bass, and also I think for their 1580 single valve bass. However in general the single valve basses are not nearly as popular due to the desire to have a fully chromatic instrument. It worked for Roberts, but he had also learned to "fake it" on fast passages using false tones for notes like the C and B Natural.

ttf_Joe Stanko · Post by **ttf_Joe Stanko** » Mon May 22, 2017 2:08 pm

Scroll down a bit to see one of my Holtons with the removable second valve..and Chris has done a fabulous job with the one he made for the aforementioned 60H.

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=42481.0

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Mon May 22, 2017 2:24 pm

Quote from: Joe Stanko on May 22, 2017, 02:08PMScroll down a bit to see one of my Holtons with the removable second valve..and Chris has done a fabulous job with the one he made for the aforementioned 60H.

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=42481.0

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I don't want that all the time, but for the times I need it, it's just right. Thanks. You mention a tech who does that work in that thread as well. That's great information. I play bass maybe half the time, and about a quarter of that time, I need a second valve. So I don't want a freaking horse just for that small portion of time for basically playing two notes.

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Mon May 22, 2017 3:14 pm

Quote from: jackbird on May 22, 2017, 11:07AMAn Eb valve would give you a single valve fully chromatic instrument. Chris seems to get it.
...

Yes, but at a steep price, it seems.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Mon May 22, 2017 3:22 pm

Eb slide is like going from an F attachment horn to a straight tenor. You have no use for the valve except below the staff. Maybe some people out there have long arms, but playing every single E and B in 7th sounds like a nightmare to me. I see them for sale every once in a while for Edwards tenors.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Mon May 22, 2017 3:35 pm

The King Symphony (5B) was designed to be a clone of a German tenor by Schmitt ( spelling?) for the Cleveland Orchestra tenor bones under Szell. .536/.546 bore

Using brass model rocket tubing I made a perfect Eb attachment for my King Symphony. A second player in my city did the same.

The advantages to the single Eb valve:
The lightest weight for the completely chromatic horn.
Low C and low B might be the best notes on the horn, as all the slide is extended making it free blowing like crazy.
It limits your technique to the technique of a straight tenor-- you have to learn how to use 7 positions. NO CHEATING.
NO thinking involved-- no alternate positions, just PLAY THE HORN.

I was fascinated by reading here that Robert Harper of the Philadelphia Orchestra played in Bb/Eb. It does work. Does it work "better"?-- well, it sounds great, feels fantastic, and it makes the horn more balanced. No need for ergo devices to hold the horn.

Again, a lot of what is discussed here is discussed by people just READING an internet chat room---" sounds like a nightmare to me". When you're on the job and low B is commonly called on for a lot of sustained things in # keys the single valve Bb/Eb horn is a dream. Effortless attacks-- 100% accurate attacks. No possibility of failure on a low B or low C.

It takes practice.
It takes a LOT of practice to get around on the Bb/Eb horn, but the rewards are there.
Yes, to answer the question, it has been done. It is still being done. You just have to want the feel and vintage vibe.

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Mon May 22, 2017 3:52 pm

Quote from: Terraplane8Bob on May 22, 2017, 11:52AM The mystery to me is : What was the original intent for the "knob" setup ? Just being able to play a low "B" ? Observations welcomed. Cheers !! Bob

Many of the American trombones with rotary change valves designed before the 1930s were Bb/E instruments. It's hard to say with any certainty what the reasoning was. Most historical recollections from the time only acknowledge Bb/F instruments from the Germanic school. The low B wasn't really required in the mainstream repertoire, but having one available could have been seen as a plus. Both Conn and Holton made Bb/F instruments with a stellventil change to E. Perhaps in those days, eliminating 7th position was enough of an advantage, and people weren't too concerned with having a C or F in first position, especially since most people were used to having to play it in 6th before the F attachment became ubiquitous.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Mon May 22, 2017 4:13 pm

Quote from: Terraplane8Bob on May 22, 2017, 11:52AMThe mystery to me is : What was the original intent for the "knob" setup ? Just being able to play a low "B" ? Observations welcomed.It was all about the low B. Think about it. You've got this instrument that has a practical range down to

8vb (or maybe lower), but there's this one note that gives you fits. Darn right you're going to go looking for a way to facilitate that note. Also consider that putting an E pull on a flat-wrap f-attachment would present some serious challenges and the static valve E extension begins to make a lot of sense.

As an aside - the score for The Bride of Frankenstein (1935) by Franz Waxman has a low B in bass trombone part.

ttf_Horn Builder · Post by **ttf_Horn Builder** » Mon May 22, 2017 4:30 pm

The Conn 88HK bells were made on the King 5B mandrel. Are they still in production? Haven't seen one for some time.

M

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Mon May 22, 2017 4:46 pm

I know the answer to everything is to practice for 8 hours per day for 40 years. But... give that I am 54 years old and have a career and family... that seems unlikely. So, I am forced to do what I can with my scant 1-2 hours per day almost but not every single day between now and the day I die.

So thanks for the advice. But, for me, it's Bb/F or Bb/F/D.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Mon May 22, 2017 5:26 pm

Ok, cool. I've got the answers I need. Some people get it and some just don't. Playing like a straight horn is not a problem. I do that and I'm know others do too. So this gets rid of the things I dislike about double pluggers - the weight, the cost, the confusion with multiple positions, etc. It also removes the problems with single plugs, the limited range, the need for clumsy plugin valves. Plus, you can take out the big Eb slide out and put the F slide back in. You're back to a regular single plug. I'm gonna at least try one. It'll cost a couple hundred bucks. It plays more like a trombone than a bass trombone.

ttf_Larry Preston Roberson · Mon May 22, 2017 8:33 pm

I few months ago, someone was selling a prototype dual valve tenor. I don't remember the specs or maker (Wessex maybe?). As I recall, it had the potential to be a doublers dream. Maybe the buyer, seller, or someone else following will chime in, if they haven't already; I didn't have time to read much of this thread other than the OP and a precursory glance through the various posts.

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Tue May 23, 2017 2:20 am

I have my own solution to this situation in that I have a standard sized, large bore, independent, 10in belled bass trombone for most of the playing I do-orchestral and big band- but I have a small bass for the earlier orchestral stuff and the times when I am playing for a choral group; I may be wrong but I cannot remember ever needing a low B in any bass trombone music written before 1900!

My instrument of choice for a "small bass" is a Besson "Academy 409" (AKA B&H Imperial, Besson 10-10, B&H/Besson 555). It has a bore of .555in, a 9in bell and a good pull to E. It handles like a tenor but sounds and plays like a bass.
The down-side is that they haven't been made for about 40 years and weren't all that common even then but they do come up on UK Ebay from time to time and are not expensive.

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_rdalton · Post by **ttf_rdalton** » Tue May 23, 2017 4:49 am

I am primarily a tenor trombone player playing mostly straight horns. I do own one bass, it's a single valve Olds with a quick E pull. Several years ago I had a crook made to lower the instrument to E - the quick pull works to go to Eb. So I can play Bb/F, Bb/E or Bb/Eb.

There are times where I have to play many low Cs and Bs. I will use the Eb configuration for that.

Note - I do not play bass trombone enough to trade in or buy another horn.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Tue May 23, 2017 5:00 am

The experiment does not have to cost a couple of hundred bucks. I've printed the detailed instructions here before. Here it is in a nutshell:

Buy one piece of 12" long model rocket tubing for $5 the size you need to accept the F tuning slide.
Buy a second piece 1/32" smaller to replicate the size of the F tuning slide, also for $5.
Cut them in half so you have two pieces 6" long.
Glue the smaller diameter piece into the larger piece, so it is about 9" long.

Stick the two wonky rebuilt pieces into the receiver part of the F tubing.
Stick the preexisting F attachment slide from the horn into the 9" extension part sticking out.

Total cost for the piece of Eb attachment $10.

Maybe a shop has pieces of old euphonium to chop down if you haven't got access to model rocket tubing.

And it does not take 40 years to learn how to play Eb attachment. Just remember you have no alternate positions and it is FAST to learn. A matter of hours, it is only 5 notes to learn.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue May 23, 2017 5:49 am

It depends on what you're attempting to use it for. I had a Bb/F/D attachment built for my shires tenor. I even had a 9" bell and a 547/562 slide for it. While it did play well, I found some of the lower parts in trombone choir music to really not be as easy to play on it as a real bass. Even in a big band setting I found a real bass to give a better commercial sound than the hybrid tenor/bass I had made. It makes more sense to me, after doing all of that experimenting, to find an easy to play bass instead of a big tenor for most applications. The Duo Gravis/6B and 7B horns I've played were much easier blows than other bass models (probably largely due to the 562 rotors and tubing). I believe the Benge 290 is in that same category. I've not played the JinBao clones of the 7B but I suspect they may be close to the instrument that you seek.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Tue May 23, 2017 6:31 am

@bonesmarsh, cool, so you have half a meter of rocket launching straight out behind you? I might try that before spending money. Is that aluminum tubing?

@Stewbones, I think those are rare over here. I'm familiar with the 10-10, but not the others. I'll keep an eye out.

@LPR, Yeah, I remember that. Funky frankenbone with a 5b bell, I think. It had a straight 547 slide, though, I think. It was cheap too, as I remember. Don't know who got it or who sold it, but I think it was a one-off.

Cool ideas, thanks all.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue May 23, 2017 6:37 am

"tenorbaß"

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Tue May 23, 2017 5:48 pm

It was brass rocket tube. Can't find it online to save my life. The store is long gone. Hobby supply store. The model rocket tube to fit .585/.590 Bach bass bone parts was common.

I built a CC attachment for a Bach 50B3LG to make the second valve in low C all by itself to avoid the ****** stuffy F attachment valve. The tubing for that one also cost $10, in 1980 dollars.

harrison, it is the German alphabet spelling of tenorbaSS.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Tue May 23, 2017 6:32 pm

Really?!

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Wed May 24, 2017 7:39 am

Quote from: bonesmarsh on May 23, 2017, 05:48PMIt was brass rocket tube. Can't find it online to save my life. The store is long gone. Hobby supply store. The model rocket tube to fit .585/.590 Bach bass bone parts was common.

I built a CC attachment for a Bach 50B3LG to make the second valve in low C all by itself to avoid the ****** stuffy F attachment valve. The tubing for that one also cost $10, in 1980 dollars.

harrison, it is the German alphabet spelling of tenorbaSS.

Like this: https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s8141.htm
And this: https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s8142.htm

Soldering them together might be better than glue.

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Wed May 24, 2017 8:52 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 23, 2017, 06:37AM"tenorbaß"

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 23, 2017, 06:32PMReally?!

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose* by any other name would smell as sweet..."

*Tenor, bass, tenor-bass, tenorbass, tenorbaß...

Names are arbitrary. Meaning is derived from context.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed May 24, 2017 10:00 am

Quote from: kbiggs on May 24, 2017, 08:52AM"What's in a name? That which we call a rose* by any other name would smell as sweet..."

*Tenor, bass, tenor-bass, tenorbass, tenorbaß...

Names are arbitrary. Meaning is derived from context.

See signature

ttf_kbiggs · Post by **ttf_kbiggs** » Wed May 24, 2017 11:55 am

ttf_marccromme · Post by **ttf_marccromme** » Wed May 24, 2017 3:00 pm

There is the Jürgen Voigt small--dual bore (13.2 / 13.9 mm) bass trombone with a 250 mm bell. It plays well and might be what you want ???

And there is a Schagerl 2 valve Mutthorn tenor, but both are easiest found in Europa.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Wed May 24, 2017 3:20 pm

Quote from: marccromme on May 24, 2017, 03:00PMThere is the Jürgen Voigt small--dual bore (13.2 / 13.9 mm) bass trombone with a 250 mm bell. It plays well and might be what you want ???

And there is a Schagerl 2 valve Mutthorn tenor, but both are easiest found in Europa.

I wish European stuff had better exposure over here. You all have a lot of options available. I think a pocket full of cash might help find that Muthorn as well. Looks like its $6600US. It is pretty much what I'm looking for, although a bigger lower slide might be nice, and maybe a G valve for valve #2.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Wed May 24, 2017 3:50 pm

On the other end of the price range from Voigt and Schagerl, there's the Amati ASL 382; 14.0mm (.551") bore, 235mm (9.375") bell, Bb/F/D dependent. Runs around $2,000 from WWBW.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Wed May 24, 2017 5:48 pm

Quote from: JohnL on May 24, 2017, 03:50PMOn the other end of the price range from Voigt and Schagerl, there's the Amati ASL 382; 14.0mm (.551") bore, 235mm (9.375") bell, Bb/F/D dependent. Runs around $2,000 from WWBW.

Isn't that something. They even have an open box horn for $1500. I was slow and missed out on that Holton 159. The Amati has2 triggers, though. Very interesting.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Thu May 25, 2017 8:51 am

Quote from: BillO on May 24, 2017, 07:39AMLike this: https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s8141.htm
And this: https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s8142.htm

Soldering them together might be better than glue.

Any 90 or 180 deg bends?

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Thu May 25, 2017 10:40 am

Quote from: jackbird on May 25, 2017, 08:51AMAny 90 or 180 deg bends?
You would not need them to do as bonesmarsh suggested. Maybe, if you wanted to make a new tuning slide, rather than a set of tuning slide extender tubes, you could take the pipe to a local plumber to have it bent properly. It's not all that easy to do without the right skills and equipment.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Thu May 25, 2017 11:05 am

Quote from: BillO on May 25, 2017, 10:40AMYou would not need them to do as bonesmarsh suggested. Maybe, if you wanted to make a new tuning slide, rather than a set of tuning slide extender tubes, you could take the pipe to a local plumber to have it bent properly. It's not all that easy to do without the right skills and equipment.

I suspect a local plumber would not have the gear to make an acceptable bend. To keep the inside diameter of the tubing close to the original something like pitch would have to be melted in, cooled, bent around a form, then melted out, and the resulting imperfections smoothed out. Very much brass tech work.

Just having the extension tubes suggested by bonesmarsh is a better idea from a cost and storage perspective. MUCH easier to keep it all in the case without worrying about dinging something that is supposed to slide; no worry about loosing a part; no worry about not having the F slide on hand if a part gets too ugly without it. And as someone else suggested, not unrealistic for an ordinary person to solder those pieces together: they just need a good seal all the way around, not solder all the way up and down the overlap.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu May 25, 2017 11:29 am

You could also use OE Thayer tubing since its meant for an instrument. The tuning slide bow is $25. I don't see the tube or ferrule cost at the moment, but they aren't expensive. Especially if you're just buying only enough to make a tuning slide out of it.

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Thu May 25, 2017 1:39 pm

Quote from: Matt K on May 25, 2017, 11:29AMYou could also use OE Thayer tubing since its meant for an instrument. The tuning slide bow is $25. I don't see the tube or ferrule cost at the moment, but they aren't expensive. Especially if you're just buying only enough to make a tuning slide out of it.
That's probably a better idea. The hobby tubing is made in 1/32" increments, measured by the OUTER diameter. Trombone tubing is measured by the inner diameter. It's possible that hobby tubing would fit, but it would be the wildest stroke of luck if it did. Of course there's no guarantee that the Thayer tubing would fit either if it's not a Thayer valve wrap.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun May 28, 2017 10:38 am

If it's too big, buff it down, if it's too small, plate it thickly with nickel!

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:48 pm

Ok, I'm not so smart, so if this looks dumb, that's what I was going for.

Yes, that's electrical tape holding the tuning slide onto some tubes I bought from a hobby shop. I scored a Holton TR159 from someone local. I had to resort to the dark interwebz to buy some brass tubing, aparently the same stuff they use in nukelar reactors. Anyway, it cost me about $6 plus shipping which was via Brinks truck, so that was a couple hundred. But the tube is cheap.

Anyway, this arrangement is about 1-2 inches flat of an Eb with the trigger. And I have to say, this horn sounds honkin' down in the basement. And I'll definitely be the baddest cowboy at community band next week when I show up with a Bb/Eb fully chromatic single valve bass with a .547 top slide and 9" bell, and about two feet of gratuitous tubing hanging out the back. Watch out percussion section! I've got the Faxx 1.5G plugged in, and brother does this baby humm some pedals. You just follow the slide down. F is in 6th, of course, E in 7th, Eb is t1 C is about t4 + 1-2", B is out past 6th somewhere, but it's there, and it sounds great. Even with the electrical tape, this thing sounds amazing down low. Sell your Edwards to grandma, and pick up one of these things. Retake the true meaning of the word "hack".

Plus, you can tear it down in seconds and it fits in the case. Just bring another roll of electrical tape. I might actually get the next size up for tubing so I can gorrilla glue the tubes properly (oh, and hacksaw to the correct "faktry" tuning.)

Seriously, it sounds like a pro job, but only cost hack scratch.

Maybe I'll make another one, but see if I can get rose brass tubes to warm up the buzz saw a bit. I'm going into business to sell hack kits.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:30 pm

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:11 am

Quote from: jackbird on Jun 10, 2017, 06:48PMYes, that's electrical tape holding the tuning slide onto some tubes I bought from a hobby shop. I scored a Holton TR159 from someone local. I had to resort to the dark interwebz to buy some brass tubing, aparently the same stuff they use in nukelar reactors. Anyway, it cost me about $6 plus shipping which was via Brinks truck, so that was a couple hundred. But the tube is cheap.
I'm glad you like how it plays but the electrical tape makes me cry on the inside

When I purchased my early TR185 the owner included two little tubes maybe 2 inches long each that function like an old school 50B2 D slide extended for the Bach 50B2 bE slide. Plug the two little tubes into the F attachment and plunk the original F slide into it and I get a Eb valve! No electrical tape required

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:37 am

Quote from: mr.deacon on Jun 11, 2017, 12:11AMI'm glad you like how it plays but the electrical tape makes me cry on the inside

When I purchased my early TR185 the owner included two little tubes maybe 2 inches long each that function like an old school 50B2 D slide extended for the Bach 50B2 bE slide. Plug the two little tubes into the F attachment and plunk the original F slide into it and I get a Eb valve! No electrical tape required

Ho, well, that's some fancy hoochie goochie, pre-made extensions, and all. Pshaw! I only used electrical tape because I was out of silver duct tape. Well, and because the tuning slide didn't fit inside the tube, so I couldn't glue it properly. But this was an exercise in compromise, sorry to offend.

I can almost play the Bartok gliss, just need to tape on extensions to the main slide to get two more positions, a piece of rope to reach the slide in 9th position, and I'm set. I think I'm on to something. If anyone wants me to modify your horn, just let me know. Cheap prices.

I showed my neighbor and he thought it was great, you know, for every time that gliss comes up in community band.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:21 am

Quote from: jackbird on Jun 11, 2017, 04:37AM
...

I showed my neighbor and he thought it was great, you know, for every time that gliss comes up in community band.

What kind of Community Band plays anything with a Bartok Gliss?

Although I've seen some glisses from D to G (in the staff). Do you have that one? That's where a G attachment can be really useful.

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:45 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Jun 11, 2017, 05:21AMWhat kind of Community Band plays anything with a Bartok Gliss?

Although I've seen some glisses from D to G (in the staff). Do you have that one? That's where a G attachment can be really useful.

Well, see, that's the thing. Community band should really play more Bartok transcriptions.

D to G? No, I can't do that without another roll of tape. If the trombone were just assembled in little half step increments, we could do just about anything. I'd have to cut the horn up and then tape it back together, and who has time for that?

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:43 am

Quote from: jackbird on Jun 11, 2017, 05:45AMWell, see, that's the thing. Community band should really play more Bartok transcriptions.

D to G? No, I can't do that without another roll of tape. If the trombone were just assembled in little half step increments, we could do just about anything. I'd have to cut the horn up and then tape it back together, and who has time for that?

Why not just replace that rear tuning slide with a second handslide? You could get out to at least 6th position, giving you a full-octave gliss!!

ttf_jackbird · Post by **ttf_jackbird** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:09 am

Quote from: Euphanasia on Jun 11, 2017, 07:43AMWhy not just replace that rear tuning slide with a second handslide? You could get out to at least 6th position, giving you a full-octave gliss!!

Youd have to reposition the mouthpiece so you have a righ and left hand slide. You'd look like a giant martini glass with an olive.

Or you could have a beam with a pulley so you could operate the second slide behind your back with a rope. Who needs a trombone with valves when you could just have two slides.