Long notes....

How and what to teach and learn.
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Savio
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Long notes....

Post by Savio » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:59 am

How many of you practice long notes? I always done it because it gives time to listen and think. Which is good for a slow brain.. :mrgreen:
But seriously, is the long notes less and less among today's trombone players and pedagogy?
Leif
Basbasun
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Re: Long notes....

Post by Basbasun » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:26 am

I play long tones every day. Middle range mostly very soft. Every other day some slow triads going up to high range, or triads going down to low range. I do practice scaler in all forms and patterns and broken chord. I do six tones.
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tctb
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Re: Long notes....

Post by tctb » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:48 am

I find it to be a good way of analyzing my sound throughout the register . I think of it rather like looking under the bonnet of a car to check everything works as expected.
If I had known trombones were this much fun , I would have got one sooner! :cool:
imsevimse
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Re: Long notes....

Post by imsevimse » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:52 am

I play long tones almost every day to find my sound. I listen to the tone I'm playing first, but soon focus more on one of the overtones. Let say I start on the low Bb. The best sound I get there is after I've enhanced the overtone that is heard one octave and a fifth above that note and then I also focus on the decima. The fifth is for me often strong right away and is therefore easy to enhance, but the decima takes a little more work. I guess I could continue with the next overtone too, but it probably would need even more focus and work to make an effect there. When I have found something that I think is my best sound I try to keep that sound on the next note and then I try to spread this to the whole register. That's what I do with long tones.

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
My webbpage: https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic
Bach5G
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Re: Long notes....

Post by Bach5G » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:49 am

I copied the long tone exercise from the Kleinhammer and try to do that, sometimes with octave displacements downwards, every day. I find holding the note and a gradual crescendo works best.
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Burgerbob
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Re: Long notes....

Post by Burgerbob » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:19 pm

Long tones are as popular as ever. Maybe not the very simplest Remington exercises, but so many variations on it.
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paulyg
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Re: Long notes....

Post by paulyg » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:20 pm

I way overdid it with long tones a couple years back, and haven't really re-incorporated them since.

I was doing the Schlossberg exercises 7-21, in three octaves, slowly. Every day. Took about an hour and a half. It would often crowd out the rest of my practice. This was stupid.

I was trying to improve my middle register and general sound- these were effective to a point, but what I've found much more useful are scales and slurs. Slurs done correctly should have the same benefit as long tones, as they connect two long tones- and then it doesn't matter how long you play them, as long as they are centered.

One issue with the long tone focus is that it can leave areas of your playing totally isolated from your natural setup. I was doing these insane high register long tones (holding out high F for quite some time), but couldn't connect them to the rest of my range. I call that useless.
Paul Gilles
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norbie2018
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Re: Long notes....

Post by norbie2018 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:41 pm

I practice long tones based on a Roger Bobo exercise based on a Jimmy Stamp exercise. Check out Roger Bobo's book Mastering the Tuba; Douglas Yeo recommends it on his site. The entire book has great info/exercises in it for the tenor and bass trombone player.
baileyman
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Re: Long notes....

Post by baileyman » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:14 pm

Some guys do long tone religiously. Al Hermann for instance. And then lots more through the day. Some do 6-notes, like Les Benedict. And lots more.

I cannot make myself do that time. So I try to do things, long tone variants, that hit two birds. The essential part of the long tone seems to be the duration--a full breath. And the speed--slow enough to pay attention in detail.

I find I can do scales, flexibilities, tonguing, maybe others, and do them so I have enough time to work on sound and transitions, and do them for a full breath.

I'll tell you what, though, where the rubber really hits the road is in exercises that allow full-breath chord exploration, especially in IIm-V form, while accomplishing the benefits of long tones. How to make these things up on the fly, an entirely improvised fundamental session that connects directly to song, well, that part escapes me. These would be long tone variants that hit all the birds at once.
cmcslide
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Re: Long notes....

Post by cmcslide » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:28 pm

Long tones are a very important part of my routine, but they can't be the only thing that you do. Lip slurs (slow and fast), articulation studies, scales and technical drills all play a part too. Long tones are great, but in my opinion, they need to be balanced out with other things to truly be effective.
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Savio
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Re: Long notes....

Post by Savio » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:01 am

Yes, only long notes is like eating only meat all the time. We need some variation. The reason I ask this question is because when I go somewhere where there is other players, all I listen is fast slurs. Not so often long notes. Both Roger Bobo and Kleinhammer is mentioned. How is their approach? (maybe get the books ) Tom, can you listen the overtones? I never tried listen for them. Anyway, today I have to try some slurs, never been good at them. And my attacks are not in shape either.
Anyway, then I understand long notes is still today a part of it.
Leif
imsevimse
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Re: Long notes....

Post by imsevimse » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:49 am

Savio wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:01 am
Yes, only long notes is like eating only meat all the time. We need some variation. The reason I ask this question is because when I go somewhere where there is other players, all I listen is fast slurs. Not so often long notes. Both Roger Bobo and Kleinhammer is mentioned. How is their approach? (maybe get the books ) Tom, can you listen the overtones? I never tried listen for them. Anyway, today I have to try some slurs, never been good at them. And my attacks are not in shape either.
Anyway, then I understand long notes is still today a part of it.
Leif
When I play and listen for this I play a low Bb within the staff on first. An octave and a fifth above is then a very strong overtone F. To me the Bb, A, Ab, G, Gb, F and E also give that loud overtone. Leif, try to listen for this and change the tongue, mouth cave, throat and chest to add resonance. You might discover you can make that overtone to sing stronger. The discovery I did with this is I can get it stronger with a smaller mouth cave, for me smaller than I was used to before I started to do this. The same with the decima. I try to expand my sound on those notes with this method. I started to do this after I'd seen the video Sabutin put up with overtone singing. I have no clue if this has made a change in my sound over the whole register, but it is something I believe in. The difference in my ears on those notes after I have done this for a while can be big. Then there are all the other notes too... 👍😃

If someone is sceptical about this I understand. No teacher has ever taught this and I had never heard about it until I saw the video Sam had put on his page. I may have missed his point too. This was just what happened when I tried to copy what he said in the video. That overtone is not that obvious if I play the F above. I can not hear an octave and a fifth C above as clear as if I play that Bb. It is just those notes I listed before that speak like that, but the goal is to transfer that "best" sound to the whole register.

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
My webbpage: https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic
baileyman
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Re: Long notes....

Post by baileyman » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:35 pm

I find these overtones to be pretty emphatic playing in a quiet place with earplugs in. Then the head noise fairly shouts! Each person's experience is probably personal, but it's worth a listen.

Sam has an unbelievable handle on generating overtones. To hear him isolate high ones to the point they seem to cover the fundamental is not to be missed.
timothy42b
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Re: Long notes....

Post by timothy42b » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:30 am

imsevimse wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:49 am
If someone is sceptical about this I understand. No teacher has ever taught this and I had never heard about it until I saw the video Sam had put on his page.

/Tom
Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics, by Benade in 1976, describes a method of adjusting trumpet mouthpieces by playing a note and listening carefully for one of the upper partials, and then drilling out the throat until that note is just right.

I have not been able to hear the partials distinctly but I guess I should give it another try.
GBP
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Re: Long notes....

Post by GBP » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:53 am

paulyg wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:20 pm
I way overdid it with long tones a couple years back, and haven't really re-incorporated them since.

I was doing the Schlossberg exercises 7-21, in three octaves, slowly. Every day. Took about an hour and a half. It would often crowd out the rest of my practice. This was stupid.

I was trying to improve my middle register and general sound- these were effective to a point, but what I've found much more useful are scales and slurs. Slurs done correctly should have the same benefit as long tones, as they connect two long tones- and then it doesn't matter how long you play them, as long as they are centered.

One issue with the long tone focus is that it can leave areas of your playing totally isolated from your natural setup. I was doing these insane high register long tones (holding out high F for quite some time), but couldn't connect them to the rest of my range. I call that useless.

A long tone approach that minimizes that issue is in the Vernon book. His approach is to start on an f in the staff and then move up and then down adding 1/2 steps, moving away from f. Go until you reach the top and bottom of your range. I have been doing this long tone drill for years and I have a solid 4 plus octave range.
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