TromboneChat

All the medium bore Bach models I've ever played all had the same duff notes on them.

High Bb in 3rd

High b in 2nd

High E

Any one come across any mods that cure these? or at least helped a bit

Please can we stick to first hand experiences only not " my friend did this or that"

Thanks

BellEnd

Bach 36? or Bach 16s?

and by "duff" .....can you give a description of what you mean?

The only troublesome note on my 16m and smaller horns (8, 9) is the Bb in 3rd. It's there but takes a lot of work to center and slot. Changing leadpipe didn't fix it.

I had an old VB12 with a heavy brass slide and and a phantom Bb in 3rd. I found that V cup mouthpieces helped to solidify the upper register, until I was able to ditch it...

bimmerman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:47 am Bach 36? or Bach 16s?

and by "duff" .....can you give a description of what you mean?

The only troublesome note on my 16m and smaller horns (8, 9) is the Bb in 3rd. It's there but takes a lot of work to center and slot. Changing leadpipe didn't fix it.

Bach 36 has no real issues like this.

Models 6,12,16 and 16M I've played over the years all suffer with the same faults to a greater or lesser degree.

Duff ?... I suppose I mean the slot is not really there.

Sure at home playing softly slurring up to them is doable but under pressure..... on a gig ..... good luck with that.

In the respective videos of 'Too Little Time' both Bill Watrous and Lloyd Ullyate play the high B leading to the C in 4th every time obviously for safety and security.

Don't get me wrong I thing Bach's are great horns but just surprised this problem has never been tackled

BellEnd

bellend wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:16 pm

bimmerman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:47 am Bach 36? or Bach 16s?

and by "duff" .....can you give a description of what you mean?

The only troublesome note on my 16m and smaller horns (8, 9) is the Bb in 3rd. It's there but takes a lot of work to center and slot. Changing leadpipe didn't fix it.

Bach 36 has no real issues like this.

Models 6,12,16 and 16M I've played over the years all suffer with the same faults to a greater or lesser degree.

Duff ?... I suppose I mean the slot is not really there.

Sure at home playing softly slurring up to them is doable but under pressure..... on a gig ..... good luck with that.

In the respective videos of 'Too Little Time' both Bill Watrous and Lloyd Ullyate play the high B leading to the C in 4th every time obviously for safety and security.

Don't get me wrong I thing Bach's are great horns but just surprised this problem has never been tackled

BellEnd

That's what I figured. Just was thrown by 'medium bore' -- to me that means a 36-sized horn. Never heard the term duff before either.

I've never had an issue with B or E/Eb on the horns. Just that Bb in 3rd. Same symptoms you describe.

I did have a problem with 5th partial D on my last 36.

That said, I think the usual fix on the smaller horns is to get a different leadpipe, to start.

I have a New York Bach 6 model VII and a Mnt Vernon Bach 12. I have no issues with Bb in first position which means I play it there unless it is an exception, but I can not recall Bb in third to have been a problem on any of these horns. The B in second is certainly not a problem. I can't tell if high E is more difficult on a Bach compared to my other horns.

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:33 pm I have a New York Bach 6 model VII and a Mnt Vernon Bach 12. I have no issues with Bb in first position which means I play it there unless it is an exception, but I can not recall Bb in third to have been a problem on any of these horns. The B in second is certainly not a problem. I can't tell if high E is more difficult on a Bach compared to my other horns.

/Tom

I would say that you are very lucky then as that has not been my or any of my colleagues experience when I used to play for a living.

I know when I met Dick Nash at an ITA at the time he had a 3B crook on the slide of his Bach and have seen other things tried over the years but not sure how they worked out.

BellEnd

I had two 16m's at the start of the 90's both had all the problems you mentioned, in fact the one I had made with a red brass bell, when it arrived I had to have Dave at parkers rebuild the outer slide as it was wider at the top than it was at the bottom

5 years ago I had a mt vernon 16 and again it had those problems with the upper register notes being stuffy around Ab etc in 3rd and moved it on

Now I have never tried mods to any of my horns, and remembering that small bore bachs share some parts irrespective of model, on the 16m 3b crook and pull the lead pipe seem to help

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:33 am I had two 16m's at the start of the 90's both had all the problems you mentioned, in fact the one I had made with a red brass bell, when it arrived I had to have Dave at parkers rebuild the outer slide as it was wider at the top than it was at the bottom

5 years ago I had a mt vernon 16 and again it had those problems with the upper register notes being stuffy around Ab etc in 3rd and moved it on

Now I have never tried mods to any of my horns, and remembering that small bore bachs share some parts irrespective of model, on the 16m 3b crook and pull the lead pipe seem to help

Thanks for that!

BellEnd

Never heard the term duff before either.




Meaning of duff in English


duff
adjective uk informal UK ​ /dʌf/ US ​ /dʌf/
​
bad, not useful, or not working:

He's directed so many movies that you might expect a few duff ones.

or

With the umlaut over the U, it should be pronounced : "doof"

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:03 am With the umlaut over the U, it should be pronounced : "doof"

Might be correct but I always the joke was for Duff cause lets face it, there's a lot of Duff beer out there
Thankfully, there also plenty of great ones too

bellend wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:26 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:03 am With the umlaut over the U, it should be pronounced : "doof"

Might be correct but I always the joke was for Duff cause lets face it, there's a lot of Duff beer out there
Thankfully, there also plenty of great ones too

Agreed, but Moe's serves beer in America, and we don't use the same meaning for "duff".

bellend wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:08 am I know when I met Dick Nash at an ITA at the time he had a 3B crook on the slide of his Bach and have seen other things tried over the years but not sure how they worked out.
BellEnd

Dick Nash is still playing at age 90. An absolutely delightful person, who loves life and making music.

Dick, who is not an equipment nut, remains loyal to his Bach 16 with a King 3B slide crook (installed by master tech Bruce Belo). When I asked Dick recently what trombone he was playing, he had to look at the bell engraving to ensure its model! He once had a Williams 8, sold long ago, which has landed in the hands of a friend, who still plays it regularly.

Dick Nash..... Legend! Think the Williams was actually a model 6 ?

Don't know if this link will work ? but worth a try It from a TV show in Holland?? Mid to late 70's Dick playing the shadow of your smile Mancini arrangement. Groovy shirt!




BellEnd

bellend wrote: ↑Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:14 am Dick Nash..... Legend! Think the Williams was actually a model 6 ?
BellEnd

BellEnd,
Thanks for the video link. It works just fine.
I checked with my friend. He acquired Dick Nash's Williams 8 (not a 6) shortly after this video was recorded (~1975). It has a very large bell, as you can see in the video. I don't know the specifications of this trombone, but can ask next time I see it (next week when we will be playing duets).

Dick Nash, bless his heart, is coming down from the San Fernando Valley to Orange County tomorrow morning to play some jazz with the Bones West trombone ensemble. There are quite a few of us who are very excited to again play with Dick, who is a wonderful guy, and still a fine player at age 90! I'll try to remember to ask him how long he has owned his Bach 16.

Just heard from my friend, who replied to my message:

"My Williams 8 bell diameter is 9 inches. I honestly don't remember where I got it [but knew it had been Dick Nash's]. It was in horrible condition and I think someone just gave it to me to get rid of it. It sat in storage for about 20 years before I took it out of the case and had it refurbished.

I`m a Bach player (except for my Bass) I have 2 12`s (a 1st year elkhart yellow /standard slide and a LT 12G) and a LT16MG. None of my horns have the issues you`ve asked about. The High E has been a problem note for me for years until the last couple when all of a sudden it works.

I have a 1983 16M and had been frustrated by the Bb in 3rd position for years. Putting a balance weight on the tuning slide helped but didn't fully resolve it. Other than that - its a great horn.