WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

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heldenbone
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WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by heldenbone » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:32 pm

The subject says it all; I want to retrofit a double valve to my Olds S-20 bass trombone. I realize it probably isn't worth the trouble, but it's an old friend I'm not ready to part with. Also worthy of consideration would be a way to add a D valve circuit to the F loop without doing extreme violence to the flat wrap. The existing small F rotor doesn't disturb me so much.

Thanks,
Heldenbone
Specialk3700
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by Specialk3700 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:54 pm

I would be surprised if one of the great techs we have on the forum can't make you a great plug in valve. I think that would be the easiest way for you to gain a second valve.
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JohnL
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by JohnL » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:07 pm

Just out of curiosity, which style of valve does it have now?
Attachments
plate_valve.jpg
Newer Style
plate_valve.jpg (6.48 KiB) Viewed 579 times
Can_Valve.jpg
Older Style
Can_Valve.jpg (43.77 KiB) Viewed 579 times
hyperbolica
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by hyperbolica » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:59 am

I did this kind of conversion several months ago, and a duo gravis valve set works great. The S20 works great with two valves. Best of luck with this project.
LIBrassCo
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by LIBrassCo » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:53 am

Just a thought, i have two new .562 bore rotax valves that would work well for this.
heldenbone
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by heldenbone » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:42 pm

JohnL wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:07 pm
Just out of curiosity, which style of valve does it have now?
Judging from the example pictures you included, which I can't quite bring myself to call it "new" and "old" style - "old" and "really old" seems more appropo, mine is the older "can" or "drum style" enclosing the clock spring and stop pin. I frequently consider cutting a hole in it to allow access to the rotor's stop plate bearing for lubrication. The instrument's serial no. puts its date of manufacture as late 1958.
heldenbone
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by heldenbone » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:58 pm

LIBrassCo wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:53 am
Just a thought, i have two new .562 bore rotax valves that would work well for this.
Do you have a feel for how expensive such a retrofit might be using your pair of rotax valves? I don't yet have any of the extra plumbing that would be needed for a dependent D loop; would still need to hunt down a .562 or slightly larger D slide assembly.

As an aside, a friend had a similar instrument retrofitted with a pair of axial flow valves. He is a terrific player, but the changes drastically altered the character of the trombone. As it is, it works well with a 2G or a little smaller. If I go to a 1-1/2G or larger, it loses focus and sounds foggy. I like how it plays as a big tenor or small bass and would like the extra facility the 2nd valve would allow without a large change in character otherwise.

Any wisdom to share?
LIBrassCo
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by LIBrassCo » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:08 am

heldenbone wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:58 pm
LIBrassCo wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:53 am
Just a thought, i have two new .562 bore rotax valves that would work well for this.
Do you have a feel for how expensive such a retrofit might be using your pair of rotax valves? I don't yet have any of the extra plumbing that would be needed for a dependent D loop; would still need to hunt down a .562 or slightly larger D slide assembly.

As an aside, a friend had a similar instrument retrofitted with a pair of axial flow valves. He is a terrific player, but the changes drastically altered the character of the trombone. As it is, it works well with a 2G or a little smaller. If I go to a 1-1/2G or larger, it loses focus and sounds foggy. I like how it plays as a big tenor or small bass and would like the extra facility the 2nd valve would allow without a large change in character otherwise.

Any wisdom to share?
If you'd like i can price out the whole job for you, but I'm selling the valves at $500+paypal fees+shipping. Anyone who knows the cost of rotax valves will tell you thats close to half price!
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JohnL
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by JohnL » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:53 am

heldenbone wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:42 pm
I frequently consider cutting a hole in it to allow access to the rotor's stop plate bearing for lubrication. The instrument's serial no. puts its date of manufacture as late 1958.
On all the ones I've seen (admittedly a small sample size, as that configuration is pretty rare), the back spindle is hollow all the way down to the bearing and there is an oil port. Just take out the center screw and fill the cavity with oil (I use Hetman Light Spindle and Bearing).

Olds changed the attachment bore on the S-20/S-23 at some point (I think the same time that they changed the valve design). John Sandhagen made a really nice Flat-Eb extension for me using Fullerton S-20 parts; unfortunately, it's too small for my LA-era doubles. Get a good measurement on your horn before you spend money on a valve.
hyperbolica
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by hyperbolica » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:11 pm

My feeling is that the axial valves are just too much for the S20 setup, maybe unless you got tenor axials, but even then, they are heavy. The valve tubing is 0.565 I think. That keeps it sounding like a trombone. Duo Gravis valves and tubing match this size pretty well, but the smaller bell and dual bore slide make the S20 even more compact than the DG.
Fairlane57
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by Fairlane57 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:26 pm

Since you like the Olds, checkout the Olds George Roberts bass trombone in the for sale section. It’s a great player converted by Larry Minick. Yes I am selling trombone😎 Bob
heldenbone
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by heldenbone » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:40 pm

JohnL wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:07 pm
Just out of curiosity, which style of valve does it have now?
Thank you for the pointer about the hollow rotor spindle and oil port. A friend once told me Olds instruments were engineered by a group that included former NASA engineers. That was by way of explaining why most things on the instrument (slide tuning, odd valve linkage, can or shell around the spring and stop pin, plethora of braces in the flaat wrap F attachment,...) seem so over-engineered by current standards. It would also explain why I can play a trombone same age as me. :biggrin: I'll check it to verify the port can still pass oil after so many years.
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by JohnL » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:20 pm

heldenbone wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:40 pm
Thank you for the pointer about the hollow rotor spindle and oil port. A friend once told me Olds instruments were engineered by a group that included former NASA engineers.
I suspect that's not quite true. For one thing, NASA didn't exist until 1958 (though NACA, its predecessor, does go back to 1915).

That said, Olds was out here in Southern California, far from the centers of brass instrument manufacturing but close to several aircraft companies (Douglas, Lockheed, Northrop, North American, Ryan, Consolidated, etc.), so some aircraft influence does seem probable. At the very least, the Super braces look very much like aircraft struts.

If you really want an example of overdesign, just take a look at the valves on the pre-WWII Olds French horns on my website. Redundant valve stops!
heldenbone
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Re: WTB: dependent bass valve section suitable for retrofit to Olds S-20

Post by heldenbone » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:29 pm

Fairlane57 wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:26 pm
Since you like the Olds, checkout the Olds George Roberts bass trombone in the for sale section. It’s a great player converted by Larry Minick. Yes I am selling trombone😎 Bob
Thank you for the pointer to the Olds George Roberts. I fear it doesn't deserve the sort of playing I might inflict on it, and (secondarily) is a bit more than I anticipated spending for this adventure. I do like Olds trombones. I bought an Ambassador tenor in rescuable shape from shopgoodwill.com a year or so ago. It plays quite well with the contemporaneous Olds 12C, but that mouthpiece is far too small and very bright in character. I settled on a Faxx 7C for it, and the two cooperate well.

The suggestion to ask about a D-valve in "Modification & Repair" met with the sound of crickets, so maybe it was a dumb idea to begin with. I enjoy playing it as-is, and am able to use modern bass shank mouthpieces since the receiver was slightly swaged out by a local tech. It leaves me with about 3/8" of tuning headroom on the TIS mechanism when I use a 2G. Anything larger and the instrument pouts, due to either my lack of skill or (maybe both) a poor acoustic match. I have a Faxx 1-1/2G that works well with more modern basses, but just sucks all the character out of the sound on the S-20. Thanks.
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